nnk@cs.wayne.edu (Nasir Naseem Khawaja) (01/31/91)
In article <1991Jan29.085858.1082@nntp-server.caltech.edu> looi@sutro.sfsu.edu (Wan W. Looi) writes: >I have a very negative feeling towards Islam myself, and >after seeing this movie and what Saddam Hussein has done to the world, >my negative feeling has escalated. > >Does anyone care to comment? Do we care at all??? :-) His last sentence seems so much similar to a fable I heard in which a guy wants to commit suicide but actually is afraid of it so he says: "I'm going to kill myself..... Anyone care to stop me???" :-D I would have considered changing Mr. Looi's views on Islam, but his resolute tone gave his rigidity on the subject quite away. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ./ \. Nasir Khawaja | :: :: >>>>>>>>>>>>> ./ | \. Wayne State University -.- | :: :: >>>>>>>>>>>> ./ \. Detroit, Mi 48202 | -.-:: :: >>>>>>>>>>> ./ | \. (313) 577-8513 ___ | | :: :: >>>>>>>>>> ./ \. __/__/ | @ :: :: >>>>>>>>> .///////|\\\\\\\. nnk@cs.wayne.edu ____/ \___/ :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
ishakbey@guava.CES.CWRU.Edu (Naci Selim Ishakbeyoglu) (02/02/91)
In article <1991Jan29.085858.1082@nntp-server.caltech.edu> looi@sutro.sfsu.edu (Wan W. Looi) writes: > >I saw a movie titled "Not Without My Daughter" recently and the scenes in >the movie still linger in my mind as much as on Betty Mahmoody's mind. >In the movie, I saw how women was estranged, maltreated, beaten, etc..... >I mean the scene was just "unthinkable" for people of my culture >upbringing. I have a very negative feeling towards Islam myself, and >after seeing this movie and what Saddam Hussein has done to the world, >my negative feeling has escalated. > That is the reason that they make such movies. To tell the people how bad Islam is by showing some events as islamic. You won't see maltreated women among muslims who practice and care Islam. Naji.
sabet@athena.mit.edu (Sabet A Chowdhury) (02/02/91)
In article <1991Jan29.085858.1082@nntp-server.caltech.edu>, looi@sutro.sfsu.edu (Wan W. Looi) writes: |> |> I saw a movie titled "Not Without My Daughter" recently and the scenes in |> the movie still linger in my mind as much as on Betty Mahmoody's mind. |> In the movie, I saw how women was estranged, maltreated, beaten, etc..... |> I mean the scene was just "unthinkable" for people of my culture |> upbringing. I have a very negative feeling towards Islam myself, and |> after seeing this movie and what Saddam Hussein has done to the world, |> my negative feeling has escalated. |> |> Does anyone care to comment? What does Saddam have to do with Islam? I wish people would realize that he doesn't speak for Islam, and that whatever is going on in the Middle East has nothing to do with religion, but rather politics. Besides, do you have any idea as to where the US is fighting from? Saudi Arabia, another "Islamic" country. -- =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= =*= Sabet A Chowdhury '91 =*= Internet: =*= =*= EC Box 112, 3 Ames Street =*= sabet@athena.mit.edu =*= =*= Cambridge, MA 02139 =*= sabet@lids.mit.edu =*= =*= (617)-225-6275 =*= =*= =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
nnk@cs.wayne.edu (Nasir Naseem Khawaja) (02/05/91)
In article <1991Jan31.092344.2678@nntp-server.caltech.edu> nnk@cs.wayne.edu (Nasir Naseem Khawaja) writes: >In article <1991Jan29.085858.1082@nntp-server.caltech.edu> looi@sutro.sfsu.edu (Wan W. Looi) writes: > >>I have a very negative feeling towards Islam myself, and >>after seeing this movie and what Saddam Hussein has done to the world, >>my negative feeling has escalated. >> >>Does anyone care to comment? > > > Do we care at all??? :-) > > His last sentence seems so much similar to a fable I heard in which a > guy wants to commit suicide but actually is afraid of it so he says: > > "I'm going to kill myself..... Anyone care to stop me???" :-D > > I would have considered changing Mr. Looi's views on Islam, but his resolute > tone gave his rigidity on the subject quite away. After I replied to the article by Mr. Looi, I recieved a lot of mail insisting that such replies were not in con- junction with the teachings of Islam and that I should apol- ogise to the original poster. I still believe that the poster was quite explicit in conveying his stubborness on the subject, viz. Islam = opression, and hence feel no obligation to apologize to him. However, I will do what I should have done when replying to the posting, i.e., stress that my answer does not necissarily represent the view of every Muslim. In light of the above observation, I believe that an apology would be in order, NOT to Mr.Looi, but to Muslims in general for any possible ill-catagorising that the non-Muslims might have done after reading my reply. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ./ \. Nasir Khawaja | :: :: >>>>>>>>>>>>> ./ | \. Wayne State University -.- | :: :: >>>>>>>>>>>> ./ \. Detroit, Mi 48202 | -.-:: :: >>>>>>>>>>> ./ | \. (313) 577-8513 ___ | | :: :: >>>>>>>>>> ./ \. __/__/ | @ :: :: >>>>>>>>> .///////|\\\\\\\. nnk@cs.wayne.edu ____/ \___/ :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (Michael Lodman) (02/07/91)
In article <1991Feb5.150701.15936@wpi.WPI.EDU> nnk@cs.wayne.edu (Nasir Naseem Khawaja) writes: >In article <1991Jan29.085858.1082@nntp-server.caltech.edu> looi@sutro.sfsu.edu (Wan W. Looi) writes: WWL> I have a very negative feeling towards Islam myself, and WWL> after seeing this movie and what Saddam Hussein has done to the world, WWL> my negative feeling has escalated. WWL> Does anyone care to comment? NNK> His last sentence seems so much similar to a fable I heard in which a NNK> guy wants to commit suicide but actually is afraid of it so he says: NNK> NNK> "I'm going to kill myself..... Anyone care to stop me???" :-D NNK> NNK>I would have considered changing Mr. Looi's views on Islam, but his resolute NNK> tone gave his rigidity on the subject quite away. NNK> NNK> I still believe that the poster was quite explicit in conveying NNK> his stubborness on the subject, viz. Islam = opression, and hence NNK> feel no obligation to apologize to him. I believe that Mr. Looi was merely expressing what so many others in the West have come to _feel_ about Islam in recent years, without any specific knowledge about the religion itself. This is a cumulative response to Islam, not the response to any particular incident, and it also represents my feelings. This is not to say that evidence presented to the positive side of Islam is not taken into consideration, to help tip the scales in the other direction. Do you think that your answer to Mr. Looi went on the positive or negative side of his feelings towards Islam? Did your answer invoke in Mr. Looi the image in which you want Islam to be seen? I certainly know what image I got from your answer. For all the claims of negative propaganda against Islam in the West, the truth is that people claiming to be Moslems and representing the Islamic faith are the worst enemies of Islam and its image. The _fact_ that people promoting terror and war claim to be doing so in the name of Islam certainly causes a great deal of harm to the faith, especially if the claims of representation are false. I have never seen an openly anti-Islamic article or broadcast, but I have seen people such as Saddam Hussein claiming that he is fighting a Jihad for Islam against the infidels. This again reflects badly on Islam. My suggestion to the Islamic world would be to clean your own house before taking on the rest of the world. If these people (terrorists etc.) do not represent Islam, make efforts to show the rest of the world this. The efforts I've seen to date are trully pitiful, making me wonder if these people are not in fact speaking for most Moslems, and Islam. If this is the case, the negative feelings of people such as Mr. Looi are understandable. If not, you all have a lot of work to do..... -- Michael Lodman Department of Computer Science Engineering University of California, San Diego jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (619) 672-1673
bes@tybalt.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) (02/07/91)
Michael Lodman writes: >For all the claims of negative propaganda against Islam in the West, the >truth is that people claiming to be Moslems and representing the Islamic >faith are the worst enemies of Islam and its image. The _fact_ that >people promoting terror and war claim to be doing so in the name of >Islam certainly causes a great deal of harm to the faith, especially >if the claims of representation are false. I have never seen an openly >anti-Islamic article or broadcast, but I have seen people such as >Saddam Hussein claiming that he is fighting a Jihad for Islam against >the infidels. This again reflects badly on Islam. > >My suggestion to the Islamic world would be to clean your own house >before taking on the rest of the world. If these people (terrorists etc.) do >not represent Islam, make efforts to show the rest of the world this. The >efforts I've seen to date are trully pitiful, making me wonder if these people >are not in fact speaking for most Moslems, and Islam. > >If this is the case, the negative feelings of people such as Mr. Looi are >understandable. If not, you all have a lot of work to do..... I agree with your idea about the responses given to Mr. Looi. But I disagree that it is mainly Moslems who are responsible for their negative image in the West. The crimes that have been committed in the Islamic World are no greater than the ones committed by Western powers. As a matter of fact, Western governments are more criminal. Here are the reasons for the immense amount of anti-Islamic propaganda: Ever since the Crusades, the Western World has been filled with myths that portray Moslems as demons. There was some improvement in the degree of Western misconceptions since a century ago. But with the Arab-Israeli conflict (with the U.S. firmly on the side of Israel), and the Islamic Revolution in Iran (1979) which ended American control and exploitation of Iran, anti-Islamic pro- paganda has intensified. The most obvious example of such bigoted propaganda is the movies made in Hollywood. An incredible number of such movies feature characters who are in Arabic dress and who are invariabley buffoons, stupid, or savage. Even the children's cartoons shown on TV's daily contain such characters. Americans are brainwashed starting with childhood. The false prejudices against Islam have deeply penetrated even the academic world. Distinguished British orientalist Montgommery Watt points out prejudices by Western scholars of Islam in their studies of the life of Muhammad (pbuh). When in the study of this man who lived 14 centuries ago there has been so much bias, it is clear that there is much more prejudice when dealing with current events that affect us directly and stir our emotions. Then, besides the academic world, there is the media. The accuracy of the media equals that of the cartoons American children are fed every morning. It is the duty of Moslems residing the U.S. to educate themselves and the people around them about Islam. Moslems are able to put an end to the false portrayal of Islam in the media. There are more than enough Moslems in America to accomplish this. (Maybe, they should use Jews as a role model and start intense letter writing and lobbying campaignes). Unfortunately, most Moslems in America are so disgusted by what they see around them that they prefer to passively close their eyes and ears to avoid the stink outside. >Michael Lodman Department of Computer Science Engineering > University of California, San Diego >jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (619) 672-1673 Behnam Sadeghi
RFM@PSUVM.PSU.EDU (02/12/91)
Is "Not Without My Daughter" a comment on Islam? Or about Persia (Iran)? Or about one man who endured a considerable amount of stress and insulting behavior by members of a different ethnic/social/cultural/religious/ national group? What about the shopkeeper who helped her? What about the Kurds who helped her? They appeared to be moslem also. What does their behavior say about Islam? I enjoyed the movie, but am trying to resist its propaganda message-- That Islam is the culprit -- simply because I know that the message is simplistic, distorted, and misleading. I know of fundamentalist christians who would subjugate women if they could. I know of lots of christian men who abuse their spouses. Does this lead me to condemn christianity? Let's get a little perspective in this thread.*SHEESH!* Bob M., PSU-Harrisaburg
gwydion@tavi.rice.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb7.042502.10442@nntp-server.caltech.edu> jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (Michael Lodman) writes: >If this is the case, the negative feelings of people such as Mr. Looi are >understandable. If not, you all have a lot of work to do..... When someone approaches me, and engages in a dialogue, or I do the reverse, there are certain assumptions that I make about that person - that he/she is a rational civilized human being. And I demand that he/she make the same assumptions about me. Now, if you, or someone else, chooses to believe that Muslims or not rational, or not civilized, then I really do not see why this means that it is *I* that has to do any work. The definition of a bigot is that he/she feels that certain human beings are inferior to him/her. This includes incorrect estimates about the degree of civilization and/or rationality of a class of people. Frankly, I do not understand why it is *I* who has to carry the burden of correcting the misimpressions of a bigot.
zama@midway.uchicago.edu (iftikhar uz zaman) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb8.081248.25183@nntp-server.caltech.edu> jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (Michael Lodman) makes a number of points of which I would like to pick up on a single thread. >>The crimes that have been committed in the Islamic World are no greater >>than the ones committed by Western powers. As a matter of fact, Western >>governments are more criminal. >I quite agree! However, it has been quite some time since the Western powers >committed crimes while invoking the Christian faith, perhaps 300 or >400 years."Crimes" committed in the Islamic world are still regularly >claimed to have been done in the name of Allah. Do you see the >difference? Certainly. It has been some time since Christianity has been invoked as an ideal by which some self-serving individual has chosen to justify his crimes. On the other hand, "spreading the light to the savage races," "defending the (hidden/innate) aspirations of people for democracy," "fighting the spread of Communism," and other such ideals *are* still used by politicians to commit various crimes. In other words, the use of ideals to justify a goal is a common denominator--whether the ideal is a "religious" one or a non-religious one doesn't really affect the argument, does it? >I would have a no more positive attitude towards >Christianity if it was still standard practice to invoke Christ while >killing someone than I do for Moslems invoking Allah while doing so. >In part, the repudiation of the Catholic church by protest(ants) >during the reformation was in response to crimes of this sort. No. But if you change things around a bit and suggest that we should have a negative attitude towards the Enlightenment ideals since the British used these ideals as a justification of much injustice I would not go along with you. The value of Enlightenment ideals is not to be measured in the light of the actions of people who used them opportunistically as a slogan. Or, consider, for a moment, the position of an Iraqi who thinks that the reason people are fighting Saddam Hussein is that he had become dangerously strong--perhaps a proto-Hitler. The justification for the bombing of Baghdad, he thinks, was provided by the ideal of "liberating Kuwait" from the clutches of a dictator. Whether this person is right or wrong--if, given all that he believes, he were to argue that "liberation from dictatorship" is a terrible thing, since it led to the bombing of his homeland I would try to correct him. I would say, assuming all that you believe is true, it still does not follow that dictatorship is good. Bush, according to you, has misused the notion of the undesirability of dictatorship to justify this war, nevertheless, the undesirability of dictatorship is something which should be evaluated on its own merits. >I told >you what I saw - people claiming to be Moslems committing acts >of terror and war, and doing so in the name of Islam. This is what >I'm TELLING YOU AFFECTS MY JUDGEMENT OF ISLAM. Not cartoons, not >stereotypes, not "propaganda", SIMPLY world events, and the behavior >of Moslems I meet in everyday life. I think I have a real-world analogy here. In Pakistan people believe that Americans are an immoral, licentious group of people who, in the name of "freedom," "liberalism," and "individualism" (FLI) go around having sex on the streets and shooting up on drugs. Now if I were to sit someone down and try to explain to him that as a matter of fact there is a lot to be said for FLI he might very well respond by saying "Yeah, right! The FLI which leads these Americans to encourage their children to "try out" their prospective spouses before getting married, right? The FLI which leads them to act is if they own the world invading whichever country they feel "needs" their tutelage..." Etc. I would tell this person that the ideals of FLI which Americans cultivate have nothing to do with much of the stuff done in its name, though you may see people claiming to be committed to FLI and doing things in its name... I know some of these examples could be worked out better -- but if the point is clear I hope you will not take me to task for this.. >Michael Lodman Department of Computer Science Engineering Iftikhar
jnawaz@skat.usc.edu (Jemshed Nawaz) (02/12/91)
In article <1991Feb7.042502.10442@nntp-server.caltech.edu> jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (Michael Lodman) writes: > >My suggestion to the Islamic world would be to clean your own house >before taking on the rest of the world. If these people (terrorists etc.) do >not represent Islam, make efforts to show the rest of the world this. The >efforts I've seen to date are trully pitiful, making me wonder if these people>are not in fact speaking for most Moslems, and Islam. > >If this is the case, the negative feelings of people such as Mr. Looi are >understandable. If not, you all have a lot of work to do..... > Just as Michael claims that Muslims are responsible for having a bad image(of terrorists), the Americans are then responsible for creating the terrorists themselves. It's the US govt and the CIA which are responsible for making the Middle East a trouble spot, and they've been doing it all in your(American people's) name(yes because even now when Bush is causing destruction of Iraq he claims he has an ovewhelming support of the American people). So think of the Palestinians who have been exiled from their homeland and persecuted, think of the Lebanese who have witnessed atrocities committed against them, and many many others, and they all know America is behind it in one way or another. So if the American public doesnot speak against its govt and doesn't bother to find out what it is doing around the world in their name, then in the view of Middle Easterners the blood of their people is on the American people's hands. A person who has lost his relatives, daily witnesses persecution and feels helpless to do anything about it because the rest of the world couldn't give a damn about their suffering, could be inclined to take his revenge upon the people whom he sees as being behind the oppression (the Americans) the only way he can ---terrorism. We, Muslims, are against terrorism just as much as you are, but the circumstances which bring about terrorism are not in our hands. One reason you don't see strong criticism of terrorism from Muslims as you would like is because the way the Muslims view it, rounding up all the terrorists and getting rid of them won't solve the problem; the problem has to be attacked at the roots, and the roots of terrorism lies in the machinations of the CIA, the roots lie right here in USA because people don't care what their govt is up to. > >-- >Michael Lodman Department of Computer Science Engineering > University of California, San Diego >jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (619) 672-1673 Jemshed Nawaz