zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan) (04/27/91)
It seems to me that this board has been somewhat lacking in
serious discussion about Islam, which I think is a pity. There are
plenty of things out there that we as Muslims need to discuss, and
the fact that we are not all scholars does not mean that we should
keep quiet.
With this in mind, I would like to start a discussion about
about the ways in which the Prophet is viewed. I ask this as it is
an extremely important issue, with many consequences for the ways in
which we view the Hadith and Quran.
I hope that no one will be offended by this. My point is not
to insult Islam or the Prophet in any way. I would rather that we
all learn something through discussion that will make better Muslims
of all of us.
To begin, I would like to point out the following Hadith, from
the Sahih Bukhari:
"I am only a man. He who takes something from me must
beware, for he may have taken a portion of the Fire."
This Hadith would appear to indicate that the Prophet was
capable of making mistakes in the matter of religious guidance. If
that is the case, the Hadith themselves must be abandoned as a source
of Islamic law, as their authority stems from the infallibility of the
Prophet. In that case, the vast majority of what is now known as
"Islamic Law", which has its foundations in the Hadith, must be revised.
The Quran would be the only reliable source.
Besides the obvious legal implications, the ideas presented
above seem to conflict with the common traditional view that the Prophet
was a perfect man whose divinely guided life was free from error and sin.
This has usually been thought to be a necessary assumption, as without it
we must face the possibility that errors were made in the prophets
transmission of the Quran to us. It may seem that by acknowledging his
fallibility we lose our assurance that Islam is indeed based on the word
of God. However, this is not the case. It is possible to hold that,
though he was a human being as fallible as are all others, his function
as a conveyor of the divine word was done completely according to God's
wishes, and therefore free from error. Thus the Quran may still be the
perfect divine word, even if the prophet was not a sinless man.
I'll continue this later. Again, I apologize for offending anyone.
But I think some things are important enough that they must be discussed.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Zeeshan Hasan zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu
skh7063@oberlin.bitnet
"Of course I love mankind... it's people I can't stand!"
- Linus Van Pelt
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) (04/29/91)
In article <1991Apr26.215310.5015@wpi.WPI.EDU> zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan) writes: > > With this in mind, I would like to start a discussion about >about the ways in which the Prophet is viewed. I ask this as it is >an extremely important issue, with many consequences for the ways in >which we view the Hadith and Quran. Gladly, as long as the discussion goes in an islamic way. > I hope that no one will be offended by this. My point is not I sure hope not. I won't be offended as long as it is informative. > To begin, I would like to point out the following Hadith, from >the Sahih Bukhari: > > "I am only a man. He who takes something from me must > beware, for he may have taken a portion of the Fire." > > This Hadith would appear to indicate that the Prophet was >capable of making mistakes in the matter of religious guidance. If >that is the case, the Hadith themselves must be abandoned as a source >of Islamic law, as their authority stems from the infallibility of the >Prophet. In that case, the vast majority of what is now known as >"Islamic Law", which has its foundations in the Hadith, must be revised. >The Quran would be the only reliable source. Maybe this can imply (maybe), to some facts like the no; of wives a muslim can have. i.e 4 wives whereas i heard that the prophet (saw) had nine. ? is it not so? Afroz Lateef
whaddara@kean.ucs.mun.ca (AL-NABEGHA AL-DHEBYANI) (04/30/91)
X-News: leif soc.religion.islam:812 From: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan) Subject:the nature of the Prophet Date: 26 Apr 91 21:53:10 GMT Message-ID:<1991Apr26.215310.5015@wpi.WPI.EDU> > It seems to me that this board has been somewhat lacking in >serious discussion about Islam, which I think is a pity. There are >plenty of things out there that we as Muslims need to discuss, and >the fact that we are not all scholars does not mean that we should >keep quiet. > With this in mind, I would like to start a discussion about >about the ways in which the Prophet is viewed. I ask this as it is >an extremely important issue, with many consequences for the ways in >which we view the Hadith and Quran. > I hope that no one will be offended by this. My point is not >to insult Islam or the Prophet in any way. I would rather that we >all learn something through discussion that will make better Muslims >of all of us. > To begin, I would like to point out the following Hadith, from >the Sahih Bukhari: > "I am only a man. He who takes something from me must > beware, for he may have taken a portion of the Fire." > This Hadith would appear to indicate that the Prophet was >capable of making mistakes in the matter of religious guidance. If >that is the case, the Hadith themselves must be abandoned as a source >of Islamic law, as their authority stems from the infallibility of the >Prophet. In that case, the vast majority of what is now known as >"Islamic Law", which has its foundations in the Hadith, must be revised. >The Quran would be the only reliable source. Let me point out that it is exceedingly dangerous to do a freehand interpretation of Qur'an or Hadith. It is even more dangerous to attempt to do so from a translation. The hadith given above can be interpreted in a number of ways. An obvious one that was already indicated is that he was talking about things only he was allowed to do. > Besides the obvious legal implications, the ideas presented >above seem to conflict with the common traditional view that the Prophet >was a perfect man whose divinely guided life was free from error and sin. >This has usually been thought to be a necessary assumption, as without it >we must face the possibility that errors were made in the prophets >transmission of the Quran to us. It may seem that by acknowledging his >fallibility we lose our assurance that Islam is indeed based on the word >of God. However, this is not the case. It is possible to hold that, >though he was a human being as fallible as are all others, his function >as a conveyor of the divine word was done completely according to God's >wishes, and therefore free from error. Thus the Quran may still be the >perfect divine word, even if the prophet was not a sinless man. The prophet pbuh was not a sinless man as he has said in a hadith :" All children of Adam are sinners. The best of the sinners are those who repent..." But in terms of Religion and religious verdicts he was in fact infallible. Infallibilty does *not* mean that he will never have given an 'incorrect' ruling, but rather that if he did, the correct ruling would be transmitted to him by God , and this happened a couple of times :" Ma kana lerasulen an yakuna lahu asra hatta yuthkhena fil ardh" ( Qur'an) I don't have the translatio, but this was referring to the prisoners of Badr. As to the possibilty of the prophet being only half-fallible, that's not possible, since there are a number of things in the Qur'an that are incomplete without the hadith e.g. prayers. Hence either he was completely infallible as far as Islam went, or Islam is not a 'true' religion. I've thought ** a lot ** about this latter point and have decided to the contrary, as have most other people. Therefore if one is to believe in Islam, one must believe in the infallibility of the Prophet. > I'll continue this later. Again, I apologize for offending anyone. >But I think some things are important enough that they must be discussed. >+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > Zeeshan Hasan zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu > skh7063@oberlin.bitnet > "Of course I love mankind... it's people I can't stand!" > - Linus Van Pelt >+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- Salam =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Wael M. Haddara | whaddara@kean.ucs.mun.ca School of Pharmacy | Memorial Univ of Newfoundland | "I have tried too to be a St.John's, Newfoundland | philosopher in my time; but I Canada | don't know how, cheerfulness was | always breaking in" All Disclaimers apply- I'm only | Oliver Edwards a student :-) | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr26.215310.5015@wpi.WPI.EDU>, zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan) writes: |> |> To begin, I would like to point out the following Hadith, from |> the Sahih Bukhari: |> |> "I am only a man. He who takes something from me must |> beware, for he may have taken a portion of the Fire." |> |> This Hadith would appear to indicate that the Prophet was |> capable of making mistakes in the matter of religious guidance. Salam aliekum brother The hadith you quoted, is it a WEAK or a STRONG Hadith. You see we are all humans and we interpret things differently, and therefore a WEAK Hadith (ex Abdullah heard from Ibrahim that Lutfi heard from his wifes brother Ali which heard from Musa that heard from Rafi that heard from Hussein that the Messenger of God (PBUH) said: ......) shouldn't be taken as serious as a STRONG Hadith (ex Rafi heard the Messenger of God (PBUH) saying : ....). A WEAK Hadith that goes from mouth to mouth several steps may un- deliberately have got changed before it was written down. We are humans and as humans some of us have the bad habit to put in words that weren't said by the first transmitter. As the sayings of the Messenger (PBUH) wasn't learnt by heart and written down imidiately as the Quran, the WEAK ones can naturally have some small errors. The things the holy Prophet (PBUH) said and did were checked by God and corrected if they were wrong, as he should be an example for later generations. As an example we can take the episode with the blind man in the holy Quran: The Messenger was deeply and earnestly engaged in trying to explain the holy Quran to Pagan Quraish leaders, when he was interrupted by a poor, blind man (Abdullah ibn Ummi-i-Maktum), that wanted to learn the Quran. The holy Prophet naturally disliked the interruption and showed impatience. Perhaps the blind mans feelings got hurt because God reproached the holy Prophet(PBUH) for it. After that the Prophet always hold the blind man in high honour and adressed him by the words " thou that made God reproach me ". Twice was he appointed to the governor of Medina by the Messenger of God(PBUH). In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful (80:1 -11)" The Prophet frowned and turned away. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting). But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow ( in spiritual understanding)? Or that he might recieve admonition, and the teaching might profit him? As to one who regards himself as self-sufficient, to him does thou attend; though it is no blame to thee if he grow not ( in spir- itual understanding). But as to him who came to thee striving earn- estly, and with fear (in his heart), of him wast thou unmindful. By no means (should it be so)! For its indeed a Message of instruction:" If God corrected the Messenger (PBUH) for a thing like that, then he would certainly correct him in religious matters. In Sahih Muslimin its written: (KITAB AL-FADA'IL - Hadith 5831)" Musa b.Talha reported: I and Allah's Messenger (PBUH) happened to pass by people near the date- palm trees. He (the Holy Prophet) said : What are these people doing? They said : They are grafting, i.e they combine the male with the female (tree) and thus they yield more fruit. Thereupon Allah's Mess- enger (PBUH) said: I do not find it to be of any use. The people were informed about it and they abandoned this practise. Allah's Messenger (PBUH) (was later) on informed (that the yield had dwindled), where- upon he said: If there is any use of it, then they should do it, for IT WAS JUST A PERSONAL OPINION OF MINE, AND DO NOT GO AFTER MY PER- SONAL OPINION; BUT WHEN I SAY TO YOU ANYTHING BEHALF OF ALLAH, THEN DO ACCEPT IT, FOR I DO NOT ATTRIBUTE LIE TO ALLAH, THE EXALTED AND GLORIOUS." (KITAB AL-FADA'IL - Hadith 5831)" Rafi b. Khadij reported that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) came to Medina and the people had been grafting tree. He said : What are you doing? They said: We are graft- ing them, whereupon he said : It may perhaps be good for you if you do not do that, so they abandoned this practise (and the date-palms) began to yield less fruit. They made a mention of it ( to the Holy Prophet), whereupon he said : I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining RELIGION, DO ACCEPT IT, and when I com- mand you about a thing out of my PERSONAL OPINION, keep it in mind that I am a HUMAN being. Ikrima reported that he said something like this." |> IF that is the case, the Hadith themselves must be abandoned as a |> source of Islamic law, as their authority stems from the infallibility |> of the Prophet. In that case, the vast majority of what is now known |> as "Islamic Law", which has its foundations in the Hadith, must be |> revised. The Quran would be the only reliable source. |> [ STUFF DELETED ] |> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ |> Zeeshan Hasan zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu |> skh7063@oberlin.bitnet |> "Of course I love mankind... it's people I can't stand!" |> - Linus Van Pelt |> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ I hope I've shown above that the Messenger (PBUH) didn't do any faults when it comes to religious matters as God the Creator and Maintainer of the Worlds whould had reacted. In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. (4:65)" But no, by the Lord, they have no (real) faith until they make you (O Prophet!) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resentment against your desicions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." This verse lays down in unequivocal terms the obligation of every Muslim to submit to the ordinances which the Holy Prophet (PBUH) promulgated with a view to exemplifying the message of the Quran and enabling the believers to apply that to actual situations. These Ordinances constitute what is described as the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and it has full legal force side by side with the Quran (as long as they are STRONG Hadiths). In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. (33:21)"Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern of (conduct) for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah." In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. (4:80) " He who obeys the Apostle, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)." Gani Skepi d89-gsk@nada.kth.se ********************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------- (SAHIH MUSLIMIN- HADITH 79)" ... I heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) saying: He who amongst you should see something abominable should modify it with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhort it) from his heart, and that is the least of faith." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- **********************************************************************
bdirai@rhino.ecn.purdue.edu (Ilyess B Bdira) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr28.232447.20331@wpi.WPI.EDU> lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) writes: > > >In article <1991Apr26.215310.5015@wpi.WPI.EDU> zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan) writes: >> > >> To begin, I would like to point out the following Hadith, from >>the Sahih Bukhari: >> >> "I am only a man. He who takes something from me must >> beware, for he may have taken a portion of the Fire." >> This Hadith is trancated and distorted. The original meaning is "I am only a man, I judge between you based on what I hear from you, antbody who takes something (by lying and being a better "attorney") may have taken a portion of fire" Obviously, the Hadith is talking about the prophet as a judge in disputes, not as a legislator.
zix@cs.nott.ac.uk (Zafer Iqbal) (05/01/91)
In article <1991Apr28.232447.20331@wpi.WPI.EDU> lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) writes: > > >In article <1991Apr26.215310.5015@wpi.WPI.EDU> zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan) writes: >> >> "I am only a man. He who takes something from me must >> beware, for he may have taken a portion of the Fire." >> >> ... > > Maybe this can imply (maybe), to some facts like > the no; of wives a muslim can have. > i.e 4 wives whereas i heard that the prophet (saw) > had nine. ? is it not so? > >Afroz Lateef This hadith isn't quoted correctly - thhere are many other hadiths which are similar to this but they express the meaning more clearly. I haven't got the rerferences with me but can dig 'em up if needed. Essentially the under- standing put to this an simialr hadith is that he who narrates something I have said had better narrate carefully, for if he does not he will have prepared for himself a place in hell! Another point Zeeshan made was that whethere we can take things from the prophet(saw) since he was only a man. This is clarified in many ayats of the Quran that the prophet(saw) is not speaking of his own free will - it is but an inspiration. And other ayats ordering Muslims to take what the prophet has brought and leave what he has forbidden and that it is not for a believer to decide on a matter once the matter has been decided by Allah and his messenger. In matters of deen (life, religion) tthe prophet(saw) has to be followed and in other matters he does not, an example given in a hadith of dusting of the palmtrees. In revelatiion he is masoom and denying this is effectively denying the correctness of the Quran and Islam! Wasalam Zafer
darwish@eng.umd.edu (Mamdouh Maher) (05/01/91)
Assalamu `alaykum. Brother Zeeshan Hasan writes: > To begin, I would like to point out the following Hadith, from >the Sahih Bukhari: > "I am only a man. He who takes something from me must > beware, for he may have taken a portion of the Fire." > > This Hadith would appear to indicate that the Prophet was >capable of making mistakes in the matter of religious guidance. If >that is the case, the Hadith themselves must be abandoned as a source >of Islamic law, as their authority stems from the infallibility of the >Prophet. In that case, the vast majority of what is now known as >"Islamic Law", which has its foundations in the Hadith, must be revised. >The Quran would be the only reliable source. I have never encountered this hadith, but I think I know the source. Two people disagreed and went to the messenger (PBUH) to present their case, the messenger ruled in favour of one of them then said: "I am only human, if, because of the eloquence of one of you, I give something not deserved in a judgement, then this is a piece of hell-fire." I am quoting this from memory, so the wording is not exact. The messenger (PBUH) was refering to the fact that he only knows what God teaches him. When judging in a case, he will rule in favour of the person supported by available evidence. As for infalliability, the messenger is only infalliable when it comes to the transmission of God's message. For those who insist on using the Qur'an exclusively, the Qur'an says: "Wa ma yantiqu `an ilhawqa" -- "And he does not speak out of desire" Also: "That which the messenger gave you, take it. That which he forbade, leave. That is better for you." The messenger has no special knowledge of mathematics, physics or history, but he is the infalliable source in the science of Islam. It is unlikely that you will discover one hadith that will revolutionize Islam, that scholars before you would have passed over. Hadith science is a field to which numerous careers were dedicated. People used to (and still do) record the text of the hadith, the line of the transmitters to the messenger (PBUH), the context, time, occasion, related hadiths and scholarly opinion about what it may indicate. It is not an casual process. With all due respect, what you have done is like misreading pythagora's theorem and thinking as a result that all of mathematics should be rethought. > Besides the obvious legal implications, the ideas presented >above seem to conflict with the common traditional view that the Prophet >was a perfect man whose divinely guided life was free from error and sin. Actually, the common tradition is that he was neither perfect nor free from sin. His imperfection is documented in the Qur'an and by him himself. As for freedom from sin, his sins are all forgiven, which does not mean that he is free from sin, rather it means that he is NOT free from sin. Of course he lived a more virtuous life, so his sins may seems more than trivial for us. >This has usually been thought to be a necessary assumption, as without it >we must face the possibility that errors were made in the prophets >transmission of the Quran to us. [But his conveying of the message could >have been perfect nontheless]. There is no need for us to engage is acrobatics of the mind. the situation is simple: The messenger is only human. He makes mistakes. He is also more pious and wiser than any of us. It is God's will that he does not make a mistake when transmitting the message with which he is charged. When he says that we should not only refrain from drinking alcohol, but also from selling it, he is not making up a rule, he is conveying a message like he conveys the Qur'an. I mean nothing personal by my disagreement, but as I brother, I warn you that you have made a mistake that a knowledgeable Muslim should not make. Islam is not a flimsy religion, it is solid as a mountain. It is the only religion that is solid, and that requires no mind-twisting to accept. Assalamu `alaykum
fade@midway.uchicago.edu (mohammad h fadel) (05/01/91)
If I could add something to the discussion of the Prophet'd (S) status. The main thing to remeber is that the Prophet (S), whenever he made a mistake, Allah, Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, corrected his action through wahy, revelation. a good example is what happened after the Battleof Badr, when the Prophet (S) decided to ransom the prisoners of war instead of executing them. Allah sent wahy saying that it is not for the Prophet to seek gain through ransom, but rather that he should kill the leaders of Kufr (The prisoners were all promin- ent enemies of Islam). I don't know the aya, but I'm sure someone could provide it. Thus, whenever the Prophet made a mistake in judgement, the only kind to which he was susceptible, the Qur'an corrected him.
jnawaz@skat.usc.edu (Jemshed Nawaz) (05/02/91)
In article <1991Apr30.175242.17675@wpi.WPI.EDU> darwish@eng.umd.edu (Mamdouh Maher) writes: > > Actually, the common tradition is that he was neither perfect nor free >from sin. His imperfection is documented in the Qur'an and by him himself. >As for freedom from sin, his sins are all forgiven, which does not mean that >he is free from sin, rather it means that he is NOT free from sin. Of course >he lived a more virtuous life, so his sins may seems more than trivial for us. > I'm rather confused by the above statement that a lot of other brothers are also making. This talk about our Prophet's(SAW) sins, trivial or not, are you guys talking from sure knowledge? Now, making a mistake is not the same thing as committing a sin as long as the intention was not bad. A sin as I understand it is when one intentionally does something against the Divine commandments or something which is not consistent with nature. As far as I know, even before his Prophethood, Muhammad(Sall-Allahu 'Aleyhe Wassalam) remained aloof from the wrongdoings and the customs of Jahiliyyah prevalent in his age. So next time anyone talks about his sins I would appreciate if he could refer to some. > > Assalamu `alaykum Wa-'Aleykum Assalam. Jemshed Nawaz
beekun@ncar.UCAR.EDU (R. I. Beekun) (05/02/91)
In matters of deen, Allah Himself corrected the Prophet whenever he erred. Look in the Qur'an at the incident between the Prophet and the blind man. In chapter 80, verses 1-10, Allah remonstrates the Prophet for this incident: "(The Prophet) frowned and turned away, because there came to him the blind man (interrupting). But what could tell you but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)? Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him? As to one who regards himself as self-sufficient, to him dost thou attend; Though it is no blame on thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding). But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly, and with fear (in his heart), of him wast thou unmindful. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a message of instruction." As Yusuf Ali comments, the Prophet was anxious to bring the Pagan Quraysh leader into the fold of Islam in order that the work of preaching Allah's Message might be facilitated. In doing so, he neglected the blind man who was genuinely interested in Islam. Allah is reminding Mohammad (Peace be upon him) that the message of Islam is for all, and that neither spiritual worth nor the prospect of effective spiritual guidance is to be gauged by a man's position in life. My point is that Muhammad (PBUH) was created as an ordinary man so that ordinary men like you and me would be able to emulate his example as Allah asks us to in the Qur'an (33:21; 28:46-47; 34:28; 10:15-16; 65:11; 68:4; 13:43). Allah Himself is Mohammad's (PBUH) witness (see chapter 13, verse 43), and therefore corrects his prophet (the ordinary man) whenever the latter errs. Abu Syed Marwan ............................................................................ :... We decreed for the children of : : :Israel that whosoever kills a human : : :being for other than manslaughter or : / | "" | : :corruption in the earth, it shall be : / | | | | : :as though he had killed all mankind, : | | __| | | | : :and whoso saves the life of one, it : ____|___| | <__|__|__| | : :shall be as though he had saved the : | * : :life of all mankind. (Qur'an 5: 32) : _ / : :.....................................:....................................:
fade@midway.uchicago.edu (mohammad h fadel) (05/03/91)
The Prophet was sinless (ma'sum). As a brother correctly pointed out there is a vast difference between a sin and a mistake in judgement. A sin requires the the intention of committing an act contrary to the will of Allah, may we be saved from believing the Prophet ever did such a thing. As I said earlier, when the Prophet (S) made a mistake in judgement, Allah (SWT) corrected him through revelation (wahy). Therefore, any of the Propeht's actions which were not corrected through revelation are by definition pleasing to Allah (SWT), and a normative source of behavior for Muslims, i.e. the Sunna. One final note concerning the status of the Sunna. I said it was a normative source for Muslims, by which I mean that it must interpreted by Muslims so that they understand their religious duties. It is not always clear, since the Prophe (S) did lots of things that were not obligatory upon Muslims, but only commendable. Therefore, Muslims developed the science of Fiqh to make explicit the religious obligations of Muslims as derived from the normative sources of the Shari'a, one of which is the Sunna of the Prophet (S).