darwish@eng.umd.edu (Mamdouh Maher) (04/17/91)
Assalamu `alaykum brothers, Brother Afroz Lateef writes: > He has lost hope that he will succeed in getting muslims indulged in shirk. Actually, according the the Qur'an, he has lost hope turning away Muslims as a group away from the worship on God alone. It is very possible, and it does happen, that he may turn individual Muslims to shirk (joining other that God in worship). >If they do NOT >beleive in Allah, i.e. not follow Islam, then according to the Holy Quran >they are in the fire. There is a difference between believing in God and following Islam. People who have not been PROPERLY introduced to Islam cannot be expected to follow it. I believe many of them would be good Muslims if properly introduced, so I believe many of them may go to heaven, even though none of them is guided to the straight path. It is my opinion that Hijab was imposed because of how Islam views Islamic society in general and the family in specific. The effect of Hijab is far more than to eliminate rape, it changes how society views women. Islam seems strongly bent on not letting women be turned into mere sex objects. A woman has a lot more to offer than her body, and this is not obvious seeing how some women dress. Sex is not looked down upon in Islam, but Islam has created the proper environment for it. Sex outside of marriage is the major step in the destruction of the family, which is the basic unit of an Islamic society. I have lived in the U.S. for about six years, and I have heard men talk more frequently about a woman's hair than about a woman's personality or intellect. This is just one way in which a true Islamic society is clearly better. >If I have made any mistakes here May Allah forgive me. Ameen. Allah is the All-Knowing, and if I have made any mistakes, may Allah forgive me. Assalamu `alaykum
jefff@locus.com (Jeff Fields) (05/02/91)
In article <1991Apr16.211858.24977@wpi.WPI.EDU> darwish@eng.umd.edu (Mamdouh Maher) writes: > It is my opinion that Hijab was imposed because of how Islam views >Islamic society in general and the family in specific. The effect >of Hijab is far more than to eliminate rape, it changes how society >views women. Islam seems strongly bent on not letting women be turned >into mere sex objects. A woman has a lot more to offer than her body, and >this is not obvious seeing how some women dress. Sex is not looked down upon >in Islam, but Islam has created the proper environment for it. Sex outside >of marriage is the major step in the destruction of the family, which is >the basic unit of an Islamic society. I have lived in the U.S. for about >six years, and I have heard men talk more frequently about a woman's hair than >about a woman's personality or intellect. This is just one way in which a >true Islamic society is clearly better. As a native citizen of the US, I cannot say that true Islamic society is better than US culture. I can say that there is a common attitude among American males to objectify women as sex objects. This attitude was less common in the era when there were prevalent values regarding proper sexual conduct within the institution of marriage. Women, in this era, were expected to wear clothing that covered the majority of their bodies, much like the Hijab. Women in this era also had less freedom and had rigidly defined roles defined by society. Since the turn of the century, women have gained more freedom, and society has expanded its definition of the woman's role in society. Unfortunately, there has been a trend during this time where the old values are no longer commonly held by Americans. Thus women became objectified because the destruction of these values, and not because women's clothing in the US became more revealing. I believe that the Hijab restricts the freedom of Islamic women. Islamic men, if they truly hold Islamic values, will treat a woman the same regardless of her clothing. So, I would agree that Islamic society has more commonly accepted values regarding proper sexual relationships than does US society. But, US women have more freedom. I believe that given the choice, women, Islamic or not, would choose to live in a society where they had greater freedom even though they would be commonly viewed as sex objects. -Jeff Fields
lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) (05/03/91)
In article <1991May2.143819.2455@wpi.WPI.EDU> jefff@locus.com (Jeff Fields) writes: > >In article <1991Apr16.211858.24977@wpi.WPI.EDU> darwish@eng.umd.edu (Mamdouh Maher) writes: >> It is my opinion that Hijab was imposed because of how Islam views >>Islamic society in general and the family in specific. The effect >>of Hijab is far more than to eliminate rape, it changes how society >>views women. Islam seems strongly bent on not letting women be turned >>into mere sex objects. A woman has a lot more to offer than her body, and >>this is not obvious seeing how some women dress. Sex is not looked down upon >>in Islam, but Islam has created the proper environment for it. Sex outside >>of marriage is the major step in the destruction of the family, which is >>the basic unit of an Islamic society. I have lived in the U.S. for about >>six years, and I have heard men talk more frequently about a woman's hair than >>about a woman's personality or intellect. This is just one way in which a >>true Islamic society is clearly better. Very true. This is JUST ONE way in which A true ISLAMIC society is better than others. It is beyond the dignity of an islamic lady, to go out and work. Islam views women in a highly dignified way, that is why it is said to serve one's mother as much as possible (Heaven is under the feet of mother). So if somebody sees another woman (by mistake), then he is commanded to lower his gaze, thus showing respect. >As a native citizen of the US, I cannot say that true Islamic society is >better than US culture. I can say that there is a common attitude among ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Whether u want to accept it or not, it sure is. >American males to objectify women as sex objects. This attitude was less >common in the era when there were prevalent values regarding proper sexual >conduct within the institution of marriage. Women, in this era, were >expected to wear clothing that covered the majority of their bodies, much like >the Hijab. Women in this era also had less freedom and had rigidly defined >roles defined by society. > (stuff Deleted) >I believe that the Hijab restricts the freedom of Islamic women. Islamic >men, if they truly hold Islamic values, will treat a woman the same >regardless of her clothing. > >So, I would agree that Islamic society has more commonly accepted values >regarding proper sexual relationships than does US society. But, US >women have more freedom. I believe that given the choice, women, Islamic ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >or not, would choose to live in a society where they had greater freedom >even though they would be commonly viewed as sex objects. > >-Jeff Fields God has given the choice of either accepting him or not. Somebody who has accepted, should abide by the rules and regulations for him/her to be able to enter heaven. Women and the way they dress is no exception. Afroz Lateef
lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) (05/05/91)
In article <1991May2.143819.2455@wpi.WPI.EDU> jefff@locus.com (Jeff Fields) writes: > Very true. This is JUST ONE way in which A true ISLAMIC society > is better than others. > It is beyond the dignity of an islamic lady, to go out and > work. Islam views women in a highly dignified way, that > is why it is said to serve one's mother as much as possible > (Heaven is under the feet of mother). So if somebody sees > another woman (by mistake), then he is commanded to lower > his gaze, thus showing respect. You are projecting your own culture onto Islam. According to ahadith (traditions) there were numerous Muslim women during the Prophet's lifetime that engaged in work outside their homes (e.g. traders, shepherdesses, etc.) with the Prophet's knowledge. And there isn't any record of the Prophet criticizing these women. There were reportedly even women who participated in jihad, although jihad was not obligatory for women. Furthermore, there isn't anything in Islam to the effect that working is not "dignified." >Afroz Lateef Behnam Sadeghi
bes@tybalt.caltech.edu (05/05/91)
>As a native citizen of the US, I cannot say that true Islamic society is >better than US culture. I can say that there is a common attitude among >American males to objectify women as sex objects. This attitude was less >common in the era when there were prevalent values regarding proper sexual >conduct within the institution of marriage. Women, in this era, were >expected to wear clothing that covered the majority of their bodies, much like >the Hijab. Women in this era also had less freedom and had rigidly defined >roles defined by society. > >Since the turn of the century, women have gained more freedom, and society >has expanded its definition of the woman's role in society. Unfortunately, >there has been a trend during this time where the old values are no longer >commonly held by Americans. Thus women became objectified because the >destruction of these values, and not because women's clothing in the US >became more revealing. > >I believe that the Hijab restricts the freedom of Islamic women. Islamic >men, if they truly hold Islamic values, will treat a woman the same >regardless of her clothing. In general, hijab does not restrict women's freedom. Some forms of hijab do, some don't. The only differences between proper hijab for women and the clothes men customarily wear is that women must cover their hair (for example, with a scarf). Being from Iran, I know that many Muslim women face no problem in their public activities and jobs. Some women even contributed in the military fields during the Iran-Iraq war. In Iran, women wear several different forms of hijab. One consists of a scarf, a loose dress going down to beneath the knees, and trousers (or non-see-thru stockings). This doesn't restrict women's activities in any way. Another form of hijab is called "chador" and consists of a large cloth that the woman wraps around herself. This makes movement somewhat restricted. And then there are various regional forms of hijab. In some Arab countries where both men and women wear loose clothes that cover most of the body, the only difference between men's and women's clothes would be that women would have to cover their hair (which many men do anyway, with their traditional headdress). I don't think there is any relationship between freedom and wearing modest dress. >-Jeff Fields Behnam Sadeghi
lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) (05/07/91)
In article <1991May5.124835.16625@nntp-server.caltech.edu> lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) writes: >In article <1991May2.143819.2455@wpi.WPI.EDU> jefff@locus.com (Jeff Fields) writes: > >> Very true. This is JUST ONE way in which A true ISLAMIC society >> is better than others. >> It is beyond the dignity of an islamic lady, to go out and >> work. Islam views women in a highly dignified way, that >> is why it is said to serve one's mother as much as possible >> (Heaven is under the feet of mother). So if somebody sees >> another woman (by mistake), then he is commanded to lower >> his gaze, thus showing respect. > >You are projecting your own culture onto Islam. According to ahadith >(traditions) there were numerous Muslim women during the Prophet's lifetime >that engaged in work outside their homes (e.g. traders, shepherdesses, >etc.) with the Prophet's knowledge. And there isn't any record of the >Prophet criticizing these women. There were reportedly even women who >participated in jihad, although jihad was not obligatory for women. >Furthermore, there isn't anything in Islam to the effect that working >is not "dignified." Can u give me references to the ahadith. I am loolking for the hadith (not that i say it is false , i accept it but it's better ot have the proof for future ). As to women working, no doubt they are not prohibited from working. But should they be sent to work and a man (husband) sits home? Women should work if they have the necessity to work, such as if she is on her own and has to take care of her children, or if the couple can't get both ends to meet. And there are some jobs which are more suitable for women than for men (gynaecology, obstetrician, nurses, teacher etc. etc.) wherein women are more open to women. But even then a woman has to wear proper hijab. Why do we have more maids than male-servants. But still a woman's priority is towards her children/husband. But presently women have become a symbol to sell commodities. modelling for a-z products. Like modelling for men's after shave lotion, for selling tractor (this happened in Egypt). That is why they have air hostesses, to sell their airlines. Do you or anybody else think that this is dignified? Women should work: 1)if it is necessary for them or for others (like offering their services) >Behnam Sadeghi Afroz LAteef
hanif@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Hanif G Khalak) (05/07/91)
Assalamu alaikum, In article <1991May3.152048.1849@wpi.WPI.EDU> lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) writes: [deleted material] >>>about a woman's personality or intellect. This is just one way in which a >>>true Islamic society is clearly better. > > Very true. This is JUST ONE way in which A true ISLAMIC society > is better than others. > It is beyond the dignity of an islamic lady, to go out and > work. Islam views women in a highly dignified way, that > is why it is said to serve one's mother as much as possible > (Heaven is under the feet of mother). So if somebody sees > another woman (by mistake), then he is commanded to lower > his gaze, thus showing respect. > [more deletions] >Afroz Lateef I'm not sure I totally agree with the 'beyond the dignity' statement. Assuredly, it is more COMFORTABLE, or more CONVENIENT for a muslim lady to stay home and not have any duty to work. But, it is FAR from a sign of a lack of integrity or self-respect for a woman to conduct business/work. One of the basic aspects of self-worth is intimately related to achievement, whether it be in a personal, societal, familial, or academic sense. Motherhood is an extremely valid realization of worth of a female. BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE. In fact, there are quite a few examples of women finding significant worth outside household affairs (c.f. Hadrat Ayesha, Hadrat Khadija). Of course, there is not a doubt that Islamically, other tasks come after duty to children and to husband which of course come after duty to Allah. But the significance of these responsibilities does not eradicate the potential (large) of abilities that women have for other activities. In fact, they are often complementary. It seems to me similar to a student in a university whose main goal/task is to achieve a degree, receive an education, whatever -- CLASSES. But extra- curricular activities are a way to complement, broaden, and even enhance this student's collegiate education/experience. In fact, the evidence of these involvements shows a well-roundedness and positivity, rather than some kind of lack of focus or dedication to studies. Of course, this is the case of the student who can handle both! :) I hope this analogy was competent. I'm not sure that I directly addressed your statement, but it seemed that you linked the dignity and respect for a women to her place in the home (exclusively). Please forgive any offense perpetrated and/or felt. Jazak Allahu kayra, hanif -- /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ | Hanif G. Khalak | hanif@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | | 308D WRW, UT/Austin | hanif@ticom.ae.utexas.edu | | Austin, TX 78712 | phone: (512) 471-4704 | \__________________________________________________________________/
sinnott@iastate.edu (Sinnott Susan Buthaina) (05/08/91)
I am a Muslim woman who is also a native American. I am currently
working on my PhD in theoretical physical chemistry. So, naturally, I work.
I have been reading with interest the comments on the board about hijab,
woman working, and Muslim society in general. I would like the people who
have been making these comments to provide specific references in the Qu'ran
for the following:
1. Where in the Qu'ran does it say SPECIFICALLY that a woman must
cover her hair AT ALL TIMES? I read up on the subject a couple
of nights ago. I only found a passage telling women to be modist
and to "hide their beauty" (with special mention of the chest)
from men in general. Hair was not mentioned.
2. I want to know where Mr. Lateef based his bit about Muslim women
not working from. He only quoted a passage that stated that
people that take good care of their mothers are blessed. If their
mothers work but are treated well, does this not count?
Finally, it seems that most of the people discussing women in Islam
have been men. I'd like to hear from the women how they feel about this.
I think Islam is unique in that it does provide a lot for women as far as
equal rights go. I just disagree very much with the way Islam is practised
by many people. If you can't back up your claims with passages from the
Qu'ran, than it is just a matter of INTERPRETATION, and no one but God will
know who is interpreting correctly.hanif@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Hanif G Khalak) (05/08/91)
Assalamu alaikum, In article <1991May7.115244.21783@wpi.WPI.EDU> lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) writes: > > Women should work: > 1)if it is necessary for them or for others (like offering their > services) > > > Afroz LAteef I am confused to whether you're asserting this to be a result of a fatwa'h or your opinion? In a marriage, a women need contribute nothing to the support of her family or her own welfare (monetarily), but in fact, may work to gain income for her own sole account. Unfortunately, the references I don't have, but if this is debatable, please let me know. So the assertion that the conditions on a woman working are as you described doesn't seem correct. Takabu ALlah, hanif -- /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ | Hanif G. Khalak | hanif@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu | | 308D WRW, UT/Austin | hanif@ticom.ae.utexas.edu | | Austin, TX 78712 | phone: (512) 471-4704 | \__________________________________________________________________/
bes@tybalt.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) (05/09/91)
lateef@eemips.tamu.edu (Afroz Lateef) writes: >>You are projecting your own culture onto Islam. According to ahadith >>(traditions) there were numerous Muslim women during the Prophet's lifetime >>that engaged in work outside their homes (e.g. traders, shepherdesses, >>etc.) with the Prophet's knowledge. And there isn't any record of the >>Prophet criticizing these women. There were reportedly even women who >>participated in jihad, although jihad was not obligatory for women. >>Furthermore, there isn't anything in Islam to the effect that working >>is not "dignified." > > Can u give me references to the ahadith. I am loolking for the > hadith (not that i say it is false , i accept it but it's better ot > have the proof for future ). Recently, I gave a referrence to a book edited by Afzular Rahman and quoted several ahadith about this. ( I didn't have time to type them all). I think you will be able to find that article if you browse back in the postings. > As to women working, no doubt they are not prohibited from working. > But should they be sent to work and a man (husband) sits home? > Women should work if they have the necessity to work, such as > if she is on her own and has to take care of her children, > or if the couple can't get both ends to meet. Is there anything in the Qur'an or ahadith to the efect that women should not work outside unless they are forced by necessity? I don't think so. > And there are some jobs which are more suitable for women than > for men (gynaecology, obstetrician, nurses, teacher etc. etc.) > wherein women are more open to women. But even then a woman has > to wear proper hijab. Why do we have more maids than male-servants. > But still a woman's priority is towards her children/husband. > > But presently women have become a symbol to sell commodities. > modelling for a-z products. Like modelling for men's after shave > lotion, for selling tractor (this happened in Egypt). That is why > they have air hostesses, to sell their airlines. > > Do you or anybody else think that this is dignified? If an air hostess doesn't observe modest dress as required by Islam, then she is violating Islam. But if she does obsrve modest dress (like the air hostesses of Iran Air who observe full Islamic hijab), then I don't see what is undignified about it. Obviously, any work that is un-Islamic is undignfied and should be avoided by both men and women. But that isn't what we were talking about. You wrote: "it is beyond the dignity of an Islamic lady to go out and work." You were not talking only about work that involves vilation of Islam. > Women should work: > 1)if it is necessary for them or for others (like offering their > services) > > Afroz LAteef Behnam Sadeghi
soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled Soufi) (05/10/91)
sinnott@iastate.edu (Sinnott Susan Buthaina) writes: > I am a Muslim woman who is also a native American. I am currently >working on my PhD in theoretical physical chemistry. So, naturally, I work. >I have been reading with interest the comments on the board about hijab, >woman working, and Muslim society in general. I would like the people who >have been making these comments to provide specific references in the Qu'ran >for the following: > 1. Where in the Qu'ran does it say SPECIFICALLY that a woman must > cover her hair AT ALL TIMES? I read up on the subject a couple > of nights ago. I only found a passage telling women to be modist > and to "hide their beauty" (with special mention of the chest) > from men in general. Hair was not mentioned. > 2. I want to know where Mr. Lateef based his bit about Muslim women > not working from. He only quoted a passage that stated that > people that take good care of their mothers are blessed. If their > mothers work but are treated well, does this not count? > Finally, it seems that most of the people discussing women in Islam >have been men. [text deleted] Right! Now, to all the men out there, HIJAB OR NOT HIJAB is really an issue for muslim women (ONLY!) That doesn't mean you cannot express your views, au contraire, you should keep them as such, views, and NO MORE! In my family, my mother (lebanese, school teacher) and wife (american, MD/PhD) don't wear hijab. However, they both seem to agree that today's society does not facilitate the islamic way of life. Consequently, it is hard for them to feel comfortable wearing a hijab (regardless of whether or not it is required in islam!) So, my brothers out there, our ancestors and we (mostly men) have failed MISERABLY in providing an islamic way of life. And, as a brotherly advice, LEAVE the hijab issue aside for now and try to find a bit more challenging issues to discuss before your brains get STALE!!! Finally, those of you, men, who finds it hard to leave the hijab issue aside, I wholeheartedly recommend that you go wear one! [text deleted] --khaled -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Khaled Soufi phone: (217)244-2274 | | Department of Computer Science | | University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign |
jnawaz@skat.usc.edu (Jemshed Nawaz) (05/13/91)
In article <1991May7.223246.29571@wpi.WPI.EDU> sinnott@iastate.edu (Sinnott Susan Buthaina) writes: > > > 1. Where in the Qu'ran does it say SPECIFICALLY that a woman must > cover her hair AT ALL TIMES? I read up on the subject a couple > of nights ago. I only found a passage telling women to be modist > and to "hide their beauty" (with special mention of the chest) > from men in general. Hair was not mentioned. > Let's start with the Qur'an; Surah An-Nur V.31: " ....... and to display of their adornment only *that which is apparent* ..... " " ....... and not to reveal their *adornment* save to their own husbands or fathers ..... " *that which is apparent* as regards to parts of body is understood by some scholars to mean hands and face, by others it also includes the feet, and yet others to mean face and forearms. *adornment* includes the neck, hair, arms, legs below knees which a woman cannot reveal to non-Mahrams but can do so to Mahrams[i.e. those who are not eligible to marry her, e.g. father, son, women,..] The above is how the scholars interpret the words in verse 31. If you're still not convinced, you can confirm the interpretation by the following Hadith: Rasul-Allah(SAW) said: "When a woman comes of age, it is not right that any part of her should be seen, except this and this (pointing to his face and hands)" (Abu Daoud) >equal rights go. I just disagree very much with the way Islam is practised >by many people. Could you elaborate on this.... I'm eager to find which practise of Islam you diapprove. > If you can't back up your claims with passages from the >Qu'ran, than it is just a matter of INTERPRETATION, and no one but God will >know who is interpreting correctly. It's best not to rely on your own interpretations when those by scholars already exist. Scholars are those people who have knowledge and piety, and this combination enables them to understand the true intent of the Qur'anic verses; people like us can see only the apparent meaning but cannot delve deeply. One has to know the background of the revelation of the verses, when and why they were revealed, to address what situation; one must have good command of Arabic language; one must know by heart the rest of the Qur'an plus all the authentic Ahadith so that when one interprets a certain verse in the Qur'an it won't contradict other verses/hadith. Assalam-u-Aleykum. Jemshed Nawaz
mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mamdouh Maher) (05/22/91)
Assalamu 'alaykum. I am now posting from a new node, so those who wish to send me E-mail should use the new address. Brother Khaled Soufi writes: >Right! Now, to all the men out there, HIJAB OR NOT HIJAB is really an >issue for muslim women (ONLY!) That doesn't mean you cannot express >your views, au contraire, you should keep them as such, views, and NO >MORE! In my family, my mother (lebanese, school teacher) and wife >(american, MD/PhD) don't wear hijab. However, they both seem to agree >that today's society does not facilitate the islamic way of life. >Consequently, it is hard for them to feel comfortable wearing a hijab >(regardless of whether or not it is required in islam!) So, my >brothers out there, our ancestors and we (mostly men) have failed >MISERABLY in providing an islamic way of life. And, as a brotherly >advice, LEAVE the hijab issue aside for now and try to find a bit more >challenging issues to discuss before your brains get STALE!!! >Finally, those of you, men, who finds it hard to leave the hijab issue >aside, I wholeheartedly recommend that you go wear one! I respectfully disagree. No topic in Islam is only for women or only for men. We, as Muslims, live in a society, and the concerns of the society are our concerns. The messenger (PBUH) was a man, and he transmitted all the Islamic rules about women, similarly, 'Aisha was a scholar, and she used to transmit the messenger's teachings about men to men. The rules for hijab are not from men or from women, they are from Allah (God), the Creator, and He has no gender. When men talk about hijab, they are doing their part of transmitting Allah's message. The subject of hijab is not about men, it is about the commandment of Allah. I agree that today's society does not facilitate an islamic way of life, but it does not pose a great hinderance either. It is certainly easier for a Muslim to carry on Islamic duties today than during the first thirteen years of Mohammad's (PBUH) da`wa (teaching, invitation to the straight path). Islam is relatively new to the U.S.; with an annual increase rate of about 10%, I do not think it is fair to say that Muslims have failed miserably -- they barely started. (Muslims, like Christians and almost all other groups are mostly composed of women, not men.) There is no need to get irritated. I have no current or future plans to leave the hijab issue aside, or for that matter any tiny portion of Islam. Instead of telling men to wear hijab, you may give them better advice by challenging them to make a real improvement in themselves that requires as much effort as wearing the hijab. Unfortunately, we are living in an age where some Muslims (I do not mean you by that) have an easier time accepting that women wear bathing suits than hijab. This is while many men naturally cover most of their body including their hair. Some of us are more eager to obey society than we are to obey Allah. May Allah forgive me if I made a mistake, may He lead me and you to the straight path. Assalamu 'alaykum, Mamdouh Maher