azhar@cs.duke.edu (Salman Azhar) (05/29/91)
I received the follwing through personal mail. Since, most of these questions are pertinent to the article, I shall share them with the net-at-large. >While I found your piece most interesting, there are a few questions >about Islam that I want to ask. >1. How does Islam deal with atheists/"unreligious" people like me? Islam tells muslims to treat with irreligious people like other human beings. No human can condemn another to hell, or otherwise. At the time this question is asked, a considerable amount of your life is still to go, so there is no immediate need for you to be classified. >2. What does the Quran say about the role of women in society? In >relation to men, and the role they play/can play ?(I have repeatedly >asked this one, and got vague replies) According to Islam, women can do everything a man can, own everything a man can, etc. Often, one hears about misinterpretation of "men having a degree of superiority over women". A son does not have superiority over mother, a brother not over sister, etc. In the institution of marriage, the husband has some degree of authority over wife, which is complemented with an equally greater responsibility for the quality of the family's life. This is a topic in itself, and should be discussed separately. >3. Why does worship have to be based on fear? At the outset, one does not *have* to worship out of fear. As humans we motivate ourselves from a variety of emotions; love, hate, courage, fear, etc. Of these emotions, fear is the most effective and efficient motivating factor. Which one of the following do you find easier: To pay $100 to a charity OR Pay the same $100 to a mugger (at a gunpoint). Consequently, ity should come as no surprise to you that of all the motivations to submit to God, we find fear the most dominant. >4. Relating to the above question, a religion is born out of the >social structure of its times, and though a single person might be >largely responsible for the writings the circumstances he (Muhammad, >Christ, Buddha etc...) lived in determine the structure that forms >the basis of that religion. So how can one translate the writings of >an individual born in a particular social class, at a a >particular,fairly violent time (which in my mind is the reason for >fear based worship) into universal truths? Aha! The classic socio-evolution argument has often been presented against most religions, but it dies a painful death when confronted by Islam. The difference is that Islam was "defined" over 700 centuries (approx); starting from His messenger Adam! The 14 centuries after His messenger Muhammad's (PBUH) death are insignificant compared to those 700 centuries, which saw violent and peaceful times. Islam is not a static religion but a dynamic one. Even today, there is an urgent need to ponder over new circumstances that arise everyday. >We need less religion and more free thinking and compassion. Less >division and more harmony. We certainly need less exploitation of religion, and accomodate fresh thoughts. Most religion are strong advocates of compassion, so I do not understand the need for considering compassion and religion as incompatible. Salman [religious-scholar-wanna-be] Azhar --- For, Believers are those who, when God is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts. And, when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened. And, put all their trust in their Lord. -Spoils of War (8:2)
adnan@flammulated.rice.edu (Sarmad Adnan) (06/03/91)
I read Salman [religious-scholar-wanna-be] Azhar's article (8409) and found
it to be a passionate attempt to present a dry-clean version of Islam to
Westerners. I can understand his desire to present the best possible picture
of Islam to the person concerned but that should be no excuse for distorting
the truth and presenting ones own sanitized interpretations of Islam.
The inquiry consisted of four questions.
1) How does Islam deal with atheists/"unreligious" people like me?
2) What does the Quran say about the role of women in society? In relation
to man.
3) Why does worship have to be based on fear?
4) A religion is born out of the social structure of its times and though
a single person might be largely responsible for writing, the circumstances
that he (Muhammad, Christ, Buddha etc...) lived in determine the structure
that forms the basis of that religion. so how can one translate the writings
of an individual born in a particular social class, at a particularly fairly
violent time, into universal truths ?
I found Salman's answers to the first two questions misleading, his answer
to the third question is applicable to all religions. While his elaborations
on the classic socio-evolution argument have no substance for the non-muslims.
They only work for those who already have accepted Islam to be the true faith.
My own points of view regarding the first two questions follow.
1) How does Islam deal with atheists/"unreligious" people like me?
Azhar> Islam tells muslims to treat with irreligious people like
Azhar> other human beings. No human can condemn another to hell.
Islam most certainly does not tell muslims to treat irreligious people
(nonbelievers) in the same manner as muslims. Its treatment of nonbelievers
is at best non-violent or benign. Islam clearly defines the conduct of
muslims with other muslims and that with non-believers. Repeatedly in the
Quran we have admonitions against dealing with and befriending nonbelievers,
I do believe that Salman Azhars reply bordered on misinformation. Here is
what the Quran tells us regarding our relations to nonbelievers.
9:73 O Prophet!strive hard against the unbelievers and the
Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is hell, an evil refuge
indeed.
4:101 When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if
ye shorten your prayers, for fear the unbelievers may attack you: for the
unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
4:144 O ye who believe! take not for friends unbelievers rather than
believers: do ye wish to offer God an open proof against yourselves?.
9:113 It is not fitting, for the prophet and those who believe, that
they should pray for forgiveness for pagans, even though they be of kin,
2:221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe
As for condemning humans to hell the Quran has a very clear-cut point of view.
33:64 Verily God has cursed the nonbelievers and prepared for them
a Blazing Fire--
5:83 Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the
nonbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward
before them (with the result), that God's wrath is on them, and in torment
will they abide.
2) What does the Quran say about the role of women in society? In relation
to man.
Azhar> According to Islam, women can do everything a man can, own everything a
Azhar> man can, etc. Often, one hears about misinterpretation of "men have a
Azhar> degree of superiority over women". A son does not have superiority over
Azhar> mother, a brother not over sister, etc. In the institution of marriage,
Azhar> the husband has some degree of authority over wife.
Islam had greatly enhanced women's role in society with respect to the then
prevalent conditions in Arabia. But it is not just the institution of
marriage where Islam falls short of the currently socially acceptable status
of women. Islam limits the weight of a woman's testimony in court to one half
of that of a man. Her rights of inheritance are also much more curtailed than
that of men. Salman Azhar's reply implies that it is only in marriage that
Islam allows men to have a degree of superiority over women. This is probably
the only aspect of Islam's "men's precedence over women" that is palatable by
the standards of the male dominated American culture. Curtailment of their
right to vote and right to rule were not even mentioned.
Women as Witness:
2:282 O ye who believe! when ye deal with each other, in
transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce
them to writing ............ and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and
if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for
witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The
witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence).
Women share in Inheritance:
4:11 God (thus) directs you as regards your children's
(inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if
only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance;
if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the
inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and
the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased
left brothers (or sisters), the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in
all cases is) after the payment of legacies and debts. .....
Women role in Marriage:
2:228 Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three
monthly periods, nor is it lawful for them, to hide what God hath created
in their wombs, if they have faith in God and the Last Day. And their
husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they
wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the
rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a
degree (of advantage) over them and God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because
God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they
support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are
devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would
have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty
and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their
beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience,
seek not against them means (of annoyance): for God is Most High,
Great (above you all).
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sarmad Adnan (adnan@rice.edu)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~azhar@cs.duke.edu (Salman Azhar) (06/04/91)
In article <1991Jun3.142416.20487@wpi.WPI.EDU> adnan@flammulated.rice.edu (Sarmad Adnan) writes: >I found Salman's answers to the first two questions misleading, his answer >to the third question is applicable to all religions. While his elaborations >on the classic socio-evolution argument have no substance for the non-muslims. >1) How does Islam deal with atheists/"unreligious" people like me? >Azhar> Islam tells muslims to treat with irreligious people like >Azhar> other human beings. No human can condemn another to hell. >As for condemning humans to hell the Quran has a very clear-cut point of view. Perhaps, it was not clear from my original response that *I* or *you* or *anyone* from any religions cannot condemn anyone else to hell. It is a God's judgement period. The reason is simply God knows everything in the future, past, and present. I agree that it is preferable to have muslim friends (with the intention of enhancing your belief) than non-mulsims friends. However, my original statement about treating all humans like humans regardless of religion still holds ground. Even though, you are not allowed to pray for forgiveness for your non-muslims relatives, you are obligated to deal with them as you would deal muslim friends. This includes financial and social help. >2) What does the Quran say about the role of women in society? In relation >to man. > >Azhar> According to Islam, women can do everything a man can, own everything a >Azhar> man can, etc. ... In the institution of marriage, >Azhar> the husband has some degree of authority over wife. > >Islam had greatly enhanced women's role in society with respect to the then >prevalent conditions in Arabia. But it is not just the institution of >marriage where Islam falls short of the currently socially acceptable status >of women. Islam limits the weight of a woman's testimony in court to one half >of that of a man. Some scholars believe that this injunction is only implied in financial matters. However, this is disputed by the other (more conservative) scholars. According to my sources the verse you quote was revealed under circumstances of financial disputes. However, your original contention (based on the motivation to seek exact equality) holds ground. - 2:282 O ye who believe! when ye deal with each other, in -transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce -them to writing ............ and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and -if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for -witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The -witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). -Her rights of inheritance are also much more curtailed than -that of men. As far as inheritance is concerned, one has to recognize that men have been given much responsibility (i.e accountability to God as ooppsed to social responsibility) along with the benefit of a twice the share. My statement above assumes that one believes in the "day of judgement", and recognizes that our actions would be determine how we are rewarded/punished. Furthermore, this injunction only applies for the propoerty not "willed" to hiers/others. >Salman Azhar's reply implies that it is only in marriage that >Islam allows men to have a degree of superiority over women. -Women role in Marriage: - 2:228 Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three -monthly periods, nor is it lawful for them, to hide what God hath created -in their wombs, if they have faith in God and the Last Day. And their -husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they -wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a -degree (of advantage) over them and God is Exalted in Power, Wise. The wait prescribed is to ascertain beyond shadow of doubt the biological father of a child (in case of pregnancy). The underlined part (above) is often ignored by most muslim men. I try to refrain from quoting isolated verses of Quran in a controversial debate. One has to study the situation under which they revealed. I can show that alcohol is allowed in reasonable quantities using isolated verses. Furthermore, I have a tendency to find exactly those verses that support my view (using index etc.). So, please understand my aproach (of assuming that the reader would carry out an objective and thorough research). Sarmad, could you also please elucidate why the socio-economic "elaboration" does not work for non-mulsims. I do not understand how I am charged "sanitizing" Islam for Westerners and presenting "elaborations" which do not "work" for non-muslims. In reality, I am only saying what my religious knowledge and understanding leads me to believe. I have no politcal goals whatsoever. So, I request that we do not read into each other's minds what is not there. Salman [This is the Book; In it is the guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God; believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, spend out of what God has provided for them. And,those who believe in the revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and do not doubt the Hereafter. Baqra:2-4 ] Azhar -- For, Believers are those who, when God is mentioned, feel a tremor in their hearts. And, when they hear His signs rehearsed, find their faith strengthened. And, put all their trust in their Lord. -Spoils of War (8:2)
bes@tybalt.caltech.edu ( Behnam Sadeghi ) (06/04/91)
(Note: the message I am replying to originally cross-posted to several newsgroups. Since I read only s.r.i., I will miss any replies posted in the other newsgroups). --------------------------------------------------------------------- I will reply to comments about the status accorded to women by Islam. >Islam had greatly enhanced women's role in society with respect to the then >prevalent conditions in Arabia. But it is not just the institution of >marriage where Islam falls short of the currently socially acceptable status >of women. Islam limits the weight of a woman's testimony in court to one half When you mention "currently socially acceptable status of women" what are you referring to? If you are referring to the currently socially accepted position of women in Muslim societies, then I am afraid that in some regions women are denied the most basic rights specified by the Holy Quran. In some areas, this includes even the rights recognized by the most traditionalist interpretations, including the rights to property and inheritence. So, in these regions, one could say that actual practice lags behind both the traditional interpretations of Islam as well as the law of the land. (On the other hand, in other areas this situation does not exist). >of that of a man. Her rights of inheritance are also much more curtailed than >that of men. Salman Azhar's reply implies that it is only in marriage that The Quranic law of inheritence may seem unfair if taken out of the context of the totality of Quranic laws. But when this law is viewed along with other Islamic injunctions, it is evident that at least in the realm of financial rights of men and women, not only women are not unfairly discriminated against, but also they probably enjoy an advantage. Here I list the financial rights of men and women: 1) Men have the right to own property and conduct business 2) Women have the right to own property and conduct business 3) Upon marriage, men have to pay the women a piece of property or sum of money (this may be a negligibe "symbolic" sum or substantial). This is called "mahr." 4) If a husband initiates divorce (talaq), the wife gets to keep the mahr. If a wife initiates divoce (khul'a), she has to return part or all of the mahr. 5) DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE WIFE CAN WORK AND EARN MONEY FOR HERSELF, SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO SPEND ANY OF HER EARNINGS ON HER HUSBAND OR CHILDREN. SHE CAN KEEP ALL THE EARNING FOR HERSELF. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE HUSBAND HAS TO PAY FOR THE MAINTAINANCE OF BOTH THE WIFE AND THE CHILDREN. 6) The wife is not responsible for doing housework. If she so wishes, she has the right to demand a salary for any work she does inside home, including the upkeep of children. 7) When inheriting from parents, a daughter`s share is one-half the son's share. [If I remember correctly, though, a person can will 1/3 his property as he wishes. ] It's obvious that in most cases, # 5 is far more to the advantage of women that # 7 is to their disadvantage. And this is not to mention any other injunctions favorable to women, such as mahr (# 3) or # 6. Also, please note that if somebody quotes # 5 without providing the proper context of Islam's financial regulations, he could give the misleading impression that Islam unfairly discriminates against men! A question that you must now ask me is "according to who?". The rights I listed above are held by traditionalist scholars and are based on the Qur'an. I will try to make clear who believes the things that I say, because there are instances where my views are a "minority perspective" (and in these instances, it wouldn't be reasonable for me to speak for all Muslims). >Islam allows men to have a degree of superiority over women. This is probably >the only aspect of Islam's "men's precedence over women" that is palatable by >the standards of the male dominated American culture. Curtailment of their >right to vote and right to rule were not even mentioned. The Ahadith show that during the lifetime of the Prophet, women participated in the social life of the community, to the extent of participating in jihad (though jihad --defense of the Islamic state-- was not required of women). Contrary to your view, there's nothing in anybody's interpretation of Islam that prohobits women from voting. In the "Islamic Republic" of Pakistan and the "Islamic Republic" of Iran, women can vote and are also elected to Parliament. This probably wouldn't have been tolerated if the ulama of these so-called Islamic Republics believed it went against their interpretation of Islam. So far as it concerns the position of the ruler of the state, the majority opinion is that a woman must not become the ruler of the Muslim state. This is one area where I have a minority view. You'll find that the Quran does not restrict the position of caliph to men. The Quran mentions Queen Sheba who was the ruler of a state, and who converted to Islam after being invited by Solomon to accept the faith. The Quran doesn't say that Sheba gave up her throne after her conversion. The majority view is based a hadith attributed to the Prophet. But I have read a very compelling and rational argument about why the hadith appears to be spurious (the argument concerns the fact that the content of the hadith indicates that it can't possibly have been narrated by the person to whom the act of narration is attributed). >Women as Witness: > 2:282 O ye who believe! when ye deal with each other, in >transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce >them to writing ............ and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and >if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for >witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The >witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (for evidence). This Quranic verse corresponds to the very specific task of witnessing in financial matters. Although I have seen different arguments explaining the reason behind this injunction, I notice that it is sometimes ignored that this verse itself contains the reason why in financial matters two women witenesses or one male witness were required. The verse says that if one woman forgets or makes a mistakes, the other one can correct her. It is clear that since women were rather unfamiliar with financial transactions (or at least less familiar than men), they were more likely to make a mistake when serving as a witness. In the interest of justice, another woman was required to accompany the first woman to correct her if she made a mistake. You will find that in areas other than financial transactions, the Qur'an talks about necessity of witnesses as well as the number of witnesses required, but does not state that two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. >Women share in Inheritance: > 4:11 God (thus) directs you as regards your children's >(inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if >only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; >if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the >inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and >the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased >left brothers (or sisters), the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in >all cases is) after the payment of legacies and debts. ..... Regarding inheritance, see above. >Women role in Marriage: > 2:228 Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three >monthly periods, nor is it lawful for them, to hide what God hath created >in their wombs, if they have faith in God and the Last Day. And their >husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they >wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the >rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a >degree (of advantage) over them and God is Exalted in Power, Wise. Obviously, this verse is more related to divorce than marriage. Muhammad Asad, in his translation of and commentary on the Qur'an, states (based on the views of some past ulama), that the advantage men are given in the matter of divorce is the rule that if the woman initiates divorce, she must return part or all of the mahr that she received from her husband. (If you continue to quote the succeeding verse you'll note that is what the Quran says next). Otherwise, with the exception just mentioned, the verse states that women "shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable." Another interpretation of the verse is that the advantage given to the men is that men have an authority over women (as some have interpreted verse iv:34 to imply). I personally tend to prefer the first interpretation since it takes into account the context of the verse. > 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because >God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they >support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are >devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would >have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty >and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their >beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, >seek not against them means (of annoyance): for God is Most High, >Great (above you all). I am aware of about a dozen different interpretations and translations of this verse. The only thing I care to comment on right now is the sentence "the righteous women are devoutly obedient." The phrase "devoutly obedient" is what Yusuf Ali (whose translation I believe you are using) chose as the translation for the Arabic word "qanitat." Another translation of the word qanitat is simply devout, pious, or obedient to God. (Perhaps that's why Y. Ali uses the qualifier "devoutly."). You'll find that this is, for example, the translation chosen by Ahmed Ali, or Muhammad Asad. The word qanitat appears also in the chapter of the Holy Qur'an called Sourah Ahzab. You'll see that in this verse, the only possible interpretation of the word is "devout" or "pious." And that's how all translators/interpretors have translated/interpreted the word qanitat in Sourah Ahzab. >-- > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Sarmad Adnan (adnan@rice.edu) > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Behnam Sadeghi
ghouse@server.cs.jhu.edu (06/04/91)
In article: <1991Jun3.142416.20487@wpi.WPI.EDU> adnan@flammulated.rice.edu (Sarmad Adnan) writes: > Repeatedly in the >Quran we have admonitions against dealing with and befriending nonbelievers, >9:73 O Prophet!strive hard against the unbelievers and the >Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is hell, an evil refuge >indeed. . . But these verses apply only to nonmuslims who are in a state of war with muslims. See: "God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of (your) faith, and drive you forth from your homelands, or aid (others) in driving you forth: and as for those (from among you) who turn towards them in friendship, it is they, they who are truly wrongdoers!" (Qur'an 60:9) >As for condemning humans to hell the Quran has a very clear-cut point of view. >33:64 Verily God has cursed the nonbelievers and prepared for them >a Blazing Fire-- I doubt anyone would deny that God has the right to condemn people to hell. However, no *human* has the right to condemn another human to hell. At the start of your article, you accused Salman Azhar of being `apologetic'. While this may be a danger that affects any presentation of Islam, I think we should also be wary of making Islam sound harsh simply to avoid `apologism'. As salaamu alaikum wa fee amaanillah, -Mujtaba Ghouse ghouse@cs.jhu.edu ``Somehwere else, the tea is getting cold."