paul@lane.cc.ukans.edu (05/31/91)
My previous posting detailed prayer times as featured in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an nowhere mentions the 'asr prayer, but mentions prayers at
times other than the "traditional five".
Looking into Sahih Muslim (for those with the Siddiqi translation see
volume 1, pages 342-344) one sees Chapter 249, entitled
"PERMISSIBILITY OF COMBINING TWO PRAYERS ON A JOURNEY" in which the
sunset and 'isha prayers are combined in some verses and the noon and
afternoon prayers are combine in other verses in that chapter.
The next chapter is entitled "COMBINATION OF PRAYERS WHEN ONE IS
RESIDENT" in which the first verse states
"Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)
observed the noon and afternoon prayers together, and the sunset and
'Isha prayers together without being in a state of fear or in a state
of journey."
The next verse is a bit more explicit:
"Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)
observed the noon and afternoon prayers together in Medina without
being in a state of fear or in a state of journey. (Abu Zubair said: I
asked Sa'id [one of the narrators] why he did that. He said: I asked
Ibn 'Abbas as you have asked me, and he replied that he [the Holy
Prophet] wanted that no one among his Ummah should be put to
[unnecessary] hardship.)"
In Sahih al Bukhari, book 58, "The Merits of the Ansar" (Volume 5 in
Kazi Publications 9 volume bilingual version) is Chapter 41, entitled
"Al'Miraj" ("The Ascent of the Prophet" or "The Night Journey").
The end of the long hadith is as follows (from Muhammad Asad's _Sahih
al Bukhari, The Early Years of Islam_, p. 193
(Muhammad (PBUH) was addressing Moses (PBUH) after Moses had yet again
asked the Prophet to return to God and beg for fewer prayers than
5/day, when at the beginning the command was 50:)
"I answered: I have begged so much of my Sustainer that I feel
ashamed. But I am content now, and I shall submit [to God's will]. -
And when I left, I heard a voice: I have confirmed My injunction, and
have lightened the burden of My worshippers!"
So some ahadith say 5 prayers/day and some say 3/day is OK. Yet the
Qur'an says nothing about fixed prayer times.
How does one solve this dilemma?rached@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) (06/03/91)
About 5 or 3 times a day for prayer: This is the first time I heared of a 3 times a day prayers anywhere, to tell you the truth, I was shocked because I always took it for granted that muslims know this fact early enough. The prophet (PBUH) used to pray five times a day, Allah (SWT) has given us a ROUKHSA kind of to ease it on us, to be able to combine prayers in some circumstances. From what I know that when you are travelling you are allowed to combine (Asr and Zuhur) in the time of Zuhur or Asr; and Maghrib and Isha (in the time of Maghrib or Isha) and even you can pray Zuhur two rakaas instead of four and so for Asr and Isha but not MAghrib. But still it is not permitted to do anything other than that (like combining fajr and zuhur). The prophet (PBUH) used also (not many times as the Hadith that was mentioned in the original posting mentions) to combine prayers (observing the same rules above) while not travelling. I should emphasize that he did not do that often. So the Ulama (Knowlegeable people) have deduced that you could (if you are tired or you have any other reason) join two prayers as long as you do not make this a habit (once in a liftime or so ...). But all of this does not even justify one questionning if prayer should be observed 3 or 5 times a day. Another advice for all on the network, please do not read ayas and ahadith and think that you now know it all and start building conclusions on that, this is very dangerous since you are not sure that you have looked at all the evidence. A good way is to read also what the Ulama have said about the issue and if you have access to someone with knowledge ask him/her about it but do not jump hastily (sp ?) to conclusions -- "I bear witness that there is only one god, and that Muhammad is his messenger"
paul@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (06/04/91)
> From: rached@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) > About 5 or 3 times a day for prayer: > This is the first time I heared of a 3 times a day prayers anywhere, > to tell you the truth, I was shocked because I always took it > for granted that muslims know this fact early enough. > The prophet (PBUH) used to pray five times a day, Allah (SWT) has > given us a ROUKHSA kind of to ease it on us, to be able to combine > prayers in some circumstances. > From what I know that when you are travelling you are allowed to > combine (Asr and Zuhur) in the time of Zuhur or Asr; and Maghrib and > Isha (in the time of Maghrib or Isha) and even you can pray Zuhur > two rakaas instead of four and so for Asr and Isha but not MAghrib. > But still it is not permitted to do anything other than that (like > combining fajr and zuhur). > The prophet (PBUH) used also (not many times as the Hadith that was > mentioned in the original posting mentions) to combine prayers > (observing the same rules above) while not travelling. I should > emphasize that he did not do that often. So the Ulama (Knowlegeable > people) have deduced that you could (if you are tired or you have > any other reason) join two prayers as long as you do not make this a > habit (once in a liftime or so ...). You seem to be shocked at something you'd already heard about, given the evidence you just presented. > But all of this does not even justify one questionning if prayer > should be observed 3 or 5 times a day. If we can't question how can we learn? > Another advice for all on the network, please do not read ayas and > ahadith and think that you now know it all and start building > conclusions on that, this is very dangerous since you are not sure > that you have looked at all the evidence. During my investigation I was struck by the difference between Qur'anic prayer times and those in the ahadith. I'm seeking the philosophy behind the choices in the ahadith, not an answer that "it was done that way". The philosophy for 3 times/day was given in Sahih Muslim. > A good way is to read also > what the Ulama have said about the issue and if you have access to > someone with knowledge ask him/her about it but do not jump hastily > (sp ?) to conclusions Another good thing to do is to ask for the references about their information. I'm certain they would be happy to share it and there might be other interesting things contained in those references.
jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) (06/05/91)
In article <1991Jun2.200751.21167@wpi.WPI.EDU> rached@kaa.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) writes: > >About 5 or 3 times a day for prayer: > This is the first time I heared of a 3 times a day prayers anywhere, > to tell you the truth, I was shocked because I always took it > for granted that muslims know this fact early enough. The shea't do pray 3 times a day due to 2 reasons that I have heared 1- They say that we are travelling in this life (ala safar), i.e. life on earth, so we can do kasr. 2- They say that you don't actually know exactly when the zuhr or Asr time comes, so to be sure, you pray them together (it did not make much sense to me, someone may clarify please). The same is applied to Isha prayer, you actually know when maghreb and fajr due to sun rus and sun down. But the above did not make sense to me because if that was the case, then why didn't Sayyedna Muhammad (SAAWS) pray 3 times. Or why did we call it asr and zuhr, why wasn't it called the 8 rukaat of the mid day, and the 7 rukaat of the night. This among other things did not make sense to me, like including Ali Bin Abi Talib (RAA) in the prayer and Athan (ashuadu anna ali wali allah). Do you really think that Sayyedna Muhammad (SAAWS) ordered Bilal (RAA) to say athan including Ali's (RAA) name, I really doubt it. I wittnessed a shea't woman geting up as she was sitting, she said "YA ALI" , she's asking Ali's help to get her up. Do we muslims think that Ali will respond to her request, or Allah (SWT). I don't have any hatrage against our shea't brothers (we are all muslims), but I tend to think that they carry it too much in the above, as well in cutting the body in sympathy to AL-hasan and AL-husain. However, "inna Allho ghafooran raheema" (God is forgiving and mercyfull). I think a shea't that prays is better than a sunni (by name) that is killed his muslim brothers in the gulf. Mahmoud > The prophet (PBUH) used to pray five times a day, Allah (SWT) has > given us a ROUKHSA kind of to ease it on us, to be able to combine > prayers in some circumstances. > From what I know that when you are travelling you are allowed to > combine (Asr and Zuhur) in the time of Zuhur or Asr; and Maghrib and > Isha (in the time of Maghrib or Isha) and even you can pray Zuhur > two rakaas instead of four and so for Asr and Isha but not MAghrib. > But still it is not permitted to do anything other than that (like > combining fajr and zuhur). > The prophet (PBUH) used also (not many times as the Hadith that was > mentioned in the original posting mentions) to combine prayers > (observing the same rules above) while not travelling. I should > emphasize that he did not do that often. So the Ulama (Knowlegeable > people) have deduced that you could (if you are tired or you have > any other reason) join two prayers as long as you do not make this a > habit (once in a liftime or so ...). > But all of this does not even justify one questionning if prayer > should be observed 3 or 5 times a day. > Another advice for all on the network, please do not read ayas and > ahadith and think that you now know it all and start building > conclusions on that, this is very dangerous since you are not sure > that you have looked at all the evidence. A good way is to read also > what the Ulama have said about the issue and if you have access to > someone with knowledge ask him/her about it but do not jump hastily > (sp ?) to conclusions > >-- >"I bear witness that there is only one god, and that Muhammad is his >messenger"
bes@tybalt.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) (06/06/91)
Brother jle@locus.com (John Elghani) writes: >The shea't do pray 3 times a day due to 2 reasons that I have heared > >1- They say that we are travelling in this life (ala safar), i.e. life > on earth, so we can do kasr. > >2- They say that you don't actually know exactly when the zuhr or Asr time > comes, so to be sure, you pray them together (it did not make > much sense to me, someone may clarify please). The same is applied to > Isha prayer, you actually know when maghreb and fajr due to sun > rus and sun down. > > But the above did not make sense to me because if that was the case, then > why didn't Sayyedna Muhammad (SAAWS) pray 3 times. Or why did we > call it asr and zuhr, why wasn't it called the 8 rukaat of the mid day, > and the 7 rukaat of the night. Assalamu Alaikum. Please don't take my reply as an attempt to argue over these things. I am replying only because I feel that perhaps I can provide some information about a few of the questions asked in your posting. (You also asked some questions whose answers I don't know). Concerning the first question, one needs to be reminded that Shias do not believe that Muslims are required to do the 5 prayers at 3 times: They believe Muslims have the option to do so, but are not required to. Regarding the question of "why" according to Shias Muslims are given the option of saying the 5 prayers at 3 times: The answer is that in cases when scholars believe that there are either Quranic verses OR authoritative and correct ahadith that permit Muslims to do a certain thing, then it is not for them to challenge such rulings. In this case, there are some ahadith which seem to say that it is permissible to do the 5 prayers at 3 times. These to be found in certain Shia and Sunni collections of hadith. Shia scholars apparently believe that these ahadith imply that it is O.K. to pray at 3 times. Concerning the woman who said "Ya Ali," when she stood up: We must be reminded that Islam is not to be blamed for everything each individual Muslim does. I doubt that we can find any Muslim scholar (Shia or Sunni) who believes that Imam Ali or any other dead human being has the inherent power to help somebody rise up. (This is assuming that saying "Ya Ali" is a request for such aid). We can always find Muslims who do things that contradict the spirit of Islam. On the other hand, if somebody says "Ya Ali" merely for remembering him or paying respect to him, then there would obviously be nothing un-Islamic about it. (All "Ya Ali" means is "O, Ali"). Concerning the practice of cutting/bruising the body with a knife while mourning the martyrdom of Imam Husayn: Once again, actions of individual Muslims must not be always attributed to Islam or all Muslims. Needless to say, most Shias don't practice the form of mourning our brother mentioned. In fact, the practice of cutting the body in such manner has been made illegal in Iran, a country that is largely Shia. I am sure we can also find Sunni brothers & sisters who in their zeal might sometimes go overboard and do things that they would be better off not doing. Behnam Sadeghi
jamal@caen.engin.umich.edu (Jamal Mubarak) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun6.010816.3944@nntp-server.caltech.edu> bes@tybalt.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) writes: > >Concerning the woman who said "Ya Ali," when she stood up: > >We must be reminded that Islam is not to be blamed for >everything each individual Muslim does. I doubt that we can >find any Muslim scholar (Shia or Sunni) who believes that >Imam Ali or any other dead human being has the inherent power >to help somebody rise up. (This is assuming that saying "Ya Ali" >is a request for such aid). We can always find Muslims who do >things that contradict the spirit of Islam. > >On the other hand, if somebody says "Ya Ali" merely for >remembering him or paying respect to him, then there would >obviously be nothing un-Islamic about it. (All "Ya Ali" means >is "O, Ali"). >Behnam Sadeghi I agree with you fully, Behnam. However, let me point out a practice of the Ismailis, who are an offshoot of the Shia sect but perhaps can be referred to as one of the "more or less extremist sects" (Britannica). They often say "Ya Ali, madad." In fact this is something of a greeting amongst them, I am given to believe. I may be wrong about this but at times they use it instead of saying salaam. Needless to say I am quite opposed to this. Can anyone confirm? Wassalaam, Jamal
zama@midway.uchicago.edu (iftikhar uz zaman) (06/07/91)
In article <1991May31.073332.11425@nntp-server.caltech.edu> paul@lane.cc.ukans.edu writes: >My previous posting detailed prayer times as featured in the Qur'an. >The Qur'an nowhere mentions the 'asr prayer, but mentions prayers at >times other than the "traditional five". > >Looking into Sahih Muslim (for those with the Siddiqi translation see >volume 1, pages 342-344) one sees Chapter 249, entitled >"PERMISSIBILITY OF COMBINING TWO PRAYERS ON A JOURNEY" in which the >sunset and 'isha prayers are combined in some verses and the noon and >afternoon prayers are combine in other verses in that chapter. > >The next chapter is entitled "COMBINATION OF PRAYERS WHEN ONE IS >RESIDENT" in which the first verse states > >"Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) >observed the noon and afternoon prayers together, and the sunset and >'Isha prayers together without being in a state of fear or in a state >of journey." > >The next verse is a bit more explicit: > >"Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) >observed the noon and afternoon prayers together in Medina without >being in a state of fear or in a state of journey. (Abu Zubair said: I >asked Sa'id [one of the narrators] why he did that. He said: I asked >Ibn 'Abbas as you have asked me, and he replied that he [the Holy >Prophet] wanted that no one among his Ummah should be put to >[unnecessary] hardship.)" > >In Sahih al Bukhari, book 58, "The Merits of the Ansar" (Volume 5 in >Kazi Publications 9 volume bilingual version) is Chapter 41, entitled >"Al'Miraj" ("The Ascent of the Prophet" or "The Night Journey"). > >The end of the long hadith is as follows (from Muhammad Asad's _Sahih >al Bukhari, The Early Years of Islam_, p. 193 > >(Muhammad (PBUH) was addressing Moses (PBUH) after Moses had yet again >asked the Prophet to return to God and beg for fewer prayers than >5/day, when at the beginning the command was 50:) > >"I answered: I have begged so much of my Sustainer that I feel >ashamed. But I am content now, and I shall submit [to God's will]. - >And when I left, I heard a voice: I have confirmed My injunction, and >have lightened the burden of My worshippers!" > >So some ahadith say 5 prayers/day and some say 3/day is OK. Yet the >Qur'an says nothing about fixed prayer times. > >How does one solve this dilemma? There are two dilemmas being referred to here: (1) internal consistency of the hadiths; (2) the relation of the hadiths which suggest three and five to the Quran which seems to tell us nothing. Problem (1) does not seem like a problem to me. The hadiths which suggest "three" aren't really speaking of three prayers at all. I don't think we have to go beyond the words of the hadiths themselves to see thatthese hadiths speak of *combining* two sets of prayers (zuhr-asr, and maghrib- isha): and one can only *combine* things which *do* exist distinctly. Thus, the hadiths of "three prayers" are not really hadiths of three prayers: they are hadiths which still speak of *five* prayers but tell us how it is possible to combine them so that you may pray these five prayers in a manner that you are praying them at three times of the day. Problem (2) is somewhat more real, I think. The issue is one of how we are to understand the Quran. My understanding of the Quran is that the *reason* it was revealed bit by bit and not all at once (like some previous scriptures) was: so that the Prophet may explain ------------------------------- the ayas (statements) of the Quran to us. ---------------------------------------- If this is the case, then the correct understanding of the Quran *HAS* to be in conjunction with reference to the Prophet's understanding of them. Otherwise, the whole business of having the Prophet there is irrelevant. If we are to read the words of the Quran and decide what it means simply with reference to the Arabic language, then IN ACTUAL PRACTICE, our exegesis proceeds without any reference to the Prophet-- it IS as if the Prophet never existed and the Quran just "dropped" out of the sky on to us. Those who hold to the importance of the role of the Prophet in understanding the Quran will bring a hundred examples of things which Muslims have been doing for centuries (from the earliest times) which are not detailed in the Quran--details about almost every ritual (Hajj, zakah. fasting, what cause one's wudu (ablutions) to be invalidated) are missing from the Quran. What is known as Islam today would be very different if it were not that the actions and sayings of the prophet are taken as explicating the Quran and fixing its meanings (when there are a number of alternate possible meaning available). Indeed the lexical meaning of salah contains NO indication of prayersas Muslims have understood them from the first century onwards.... So where do we get the Prophet's understanding of the Quran? >From his life--recorded inthe hadith. This is whythe hadith is so essential. This, the question of the authority of hadith (as oppposed to its authenticity) is something I shall, insha Allah, get to sometime relatively soon. But I thought I would respond at least to the "internal inconsistencies of hadith" issue which was brought up. (BTW, in my opinion, there are much better examples of what look like inconsistencies than this ones...but let's save that for another day..)
majeed@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (06/10/91)
In article <1991Jun7.132518.13476@wpi.WPI.EDU> jamal@caen.engin.umich.edu (Jamal Mubarak) writes: [quoted stuff deleted] > >I agree with you fully, Behnam. However, let me point out a practice of the >Ismailis, who are an offshoot of the Shia sect but perhaps can be >referred to as one of the "more or less extremist sects" (Britannica). >They often say "Ya Ali, madad." In fact this is something of a greeting >amongst them, I am given to believe. I may be wrong about this but at times >they use it instead of saying salaam. Needless to say I am quite opposed to >this. Can anyone confirm? > >Wassalaam, > >Jamal In spring '90, my new roommate answered the phone one day. The voice on the other end shouted "Ya Ali Madad." Needless to say my roommate was taken aback. He said something to the effect "excuse me?" And the caller realized that he had dialed someone other than he intended. The caller said he was calling from Canada and asked if there were any Aga Khanis there. My roommate said that no Aga Khani lived at this number but he gave him the number for one in Austin. When my roommate told me this story, we wondered why would a person scream so impassionedly as an introduction. We constructed some scenarios in which the person was in trouble and used the invocation as a signal or that he was calling a friend for whom this cry had special meaning. But until I read the above post I did not have a reasonable conjecture. I'll try to verify this hypothesis from some Ismaili. By the way, he called me probably because at that time I was involved with the local Pakistani Students Association. ztm
mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mazen.mokhtar) (06/10/91)
Assalamy `alaykum, In article <1991Jun6.010816.3944@nntp-server.caltech.edu> bes@tybalt.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) writes: > >Concerning the woman who said "Ya Ali," when she stood up: Ali was the cousin of the messenger (PBUH). Ali means aproximately 'high' as in noble. One of the names of Allah (God) is 'Al-Ali', which means 'The High' ie 'The Most High'. Please note the 'Al', which means 'The'. Names of Allah cannot be used as personal names, of course, but Ali is different from Al-Ali in spelling as well as in meaning. When comeone is calling on Allah in Arabic, the article 'Al' is no longer needed because of Arabic grammar, so one calls on Allah by saying 'Ya Ali' instead of 'Ya Al-Ali'. 'Ya' is used to call someone, similar to the english 'Oh' (eg: "Oh people, worship your Lord who has created you and those before you that you may be pious.") Therefore 'Ya Ali' is calling upon Allah. It is used by all groups of Muslims (I intensly dislike the division of Muslims into sects and try to avoid using sect names when possible. Muhammad did not belong to a sect, there is no reason why I should. I prefer to say that I am a Muslim who happens not to think that `Ali was designated to be the successor of Muhammad.) Similarly: Al-`Aziz is a name of Allah. `Aziz is a personal name of many. When calling on Allah, people often say: "Ya `Aziz". When calling `Aziz they would also say: "Ya `Aziz". Assalamu `alaykum, Mamdouh Maher
jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) (06/12/91)
In article <1991Jun10.020106.17010@wpi.WPI.EDU> mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mazen.mokhtar) writes: > >Assalamy `alaykum, > >In article <1991Jun6.010816.3944@nntp-server.caltech.edu> bes@tybalt.caltech.edu (Behnam Sadeghi) writes: >> >>Concerning the woman who said "Ya Ali," when she stood up: > > Ali was the cousin of the messenger (PBUH). Ali means aproximately >'high' as in noble. One of the names of Allah (God) is 'Al-Ali', >which means 'The High' ie 'The Most High'. Please note the 'Al', >which means 'The'. Names of Allah cannot be used as personal names, >of course, but Ali is different from Al-Ali in spelling as well as >in meaning. > > When comeone is calling on Allah in Arabic, the article 'Al' is >no longer needed because of Arabic grammar, so one calls on Allah >by saying 'Ya Ali' instead of 'Ya Al-Ali'. 'Ya' is used to call >someone, similar to the english 'Oh' (eg: "Oh people, worship your >Lord who has created you and those before you that you may be >pious.") > > Therefore 'Ya Ali' is calling upon Allah. It is used by all groups ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WRONG I have asked our sheat brothers in regards, the answar was ---> ya ali means, ya ali bin aby talib. One kuwaity sheat brother always critisized his parents for stressing on Ali more that Muhammad (pbuh). Also, see in iran, they put great celebrations for the birthday of Ali, and nothing for that of Muhammad (pbuh). Not that I agree with birthdays either way. I don't like to split muslims either, but people like ibin baz that gave fatwa --> it is ok to full fill shamir's/bush's wish in slaughering the IRAQIS and demolishing the only power the Arabs had that COULD defeat israel <-- should be corrected seriously. >of Muslims (I intensly dislike the division of Muslims into sects >and try to avoid using sect names when possible. Muhammad did not >belong to a sect, there is no reason why I should. I prefer to say >that I am a Muslim who happens not to think that `Ali was >designated to be the successor of Muhammad.) > > Similarly: > Al-`Aziz is a name of Allah. `Aziz is a personal name of many. When >calling on Allah, people often say: "Ya `Aziz". When calling `Aziz >they would also say: "Ya `Aziz". > >Assalamu `alaykum, > >Mamdouh Maher
mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mamdouh Maher) (06/17/91)
In article <1991Jun11.182631.27989@wpi.WPI.EDU> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes: >In article <1991Jun10.020106.17010@wpi.WPI.EDU> mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mazen.mokhtar) writes: >>Assalamy `alaykum, >> Therefore 'Ya Ali' is calling upon Allah. It is used by all groups > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > WRONG Thank you for subtely pointing out your disagreement. > >I have asked our sheat brothers in regards, the answar was ---> ya ali >means, ya ali bin aby talib. One kuwaity sheat brother always >critisized his parents for stressing on Ali more that Muhammad (pbuh). The Shi`as may use the expression to call on `Ali Bin Abi Talib, I was not aware of that. However, the expression is still widely used to call on Allah by people who give `Ali no significance beyond that given to him by the Messenger (PBUH). If you listen carefully to the prayer (du`a') at the end of the Friday khutba (similar to a sermon), sometimes you will hear: "Ya Rahman, ya Raheem. Ya Hannaan, ya Mannan. Ya `Ali, ya `Aziz, ya Qadeer." ------- All these call upon Allah. The sequence the Imam uses won't necessarily be the same as the one above, but you get the idea. If I am mistaken, I would like to be corrected. Mamdouh Maher