larry@hpfelg.HP.COM (Larry Chapman X3117) (03/19/91)
For the first time in over ten years (and > 120,000 jumps) the Skydive
Colorado (used to be Skys West) drop zone in Fort Collins, Colorado
suffered a fatality. The previous fatalities were the infamous mid-air
collision between a jump plane and a commuter aircraft under VFR conditions
-- but that's another story.
Here's the story:
A level IV AFF student doing his 5th jump (2nd of the day) pulled his
cutaway handle at pull time instead of his main rip cord. The student then
became "disoriented", went into a flat spin on his back, and never pulled
his main or reserve rip cords.
The jump master reportedly followed the student to around 1000' trying
for a "save" then pulled.
What could have saved this student?
1) A jumpmaster that didn't let him "get away".
2) An AAD that worked (they, like altimeters don't work well in a burble like
encountered when you are upside down).
3) Pulling the main rip cord (a Stevens line was in place).
4) Pulling the reserve rip cord.
I believe that this is the first "legal" AFF student fatality.
-- LSC
wtm%gr.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Thomas McCollough) (03/22/91)
In article <1991Mar21.191611.181@athena.mit.edu> jnrees@athena.mit.edu (Jim Rees) writes: >In article <2020013@hpfelg.HP.COM> larry@hpfelg.HP.COM (Larry Chapman X3117) writes: >> >>What could have saved this student? >> >> 1) A jumpmaster that didn't let him "get away". >> 2) An AAD that worked (they, like altimeters don't work well in a burble like >> encountered when you are upside down). >> 3) Pulling the main rip cord (a Stevens line was in place). >> 4) Pulling the reserve rip cord. >> > ... >Technically, an AFF JM is always to be in full control of his/her AFF >student during ground training, ride to altitude, the skydive, all the >way to signing the log book. More specifically, it is the JM's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >responsibility to pull the student's ripcord (at or above a reasonable ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >altitude) if the student does not. AFF JM's are rated in part by >their ability to satisfy this requirement. Without knowing more >details of the incident, however, I would not necessarily say that it >was possible for the JM to save this student. ... > Jim Rees > D-13359 > SL/AFF JM '91 I believe that your words are too strong. If I remember correctly, it is taught in the AFF certification course as follows: 1. The student is ultimately responsible for saving his/her life on any AFF skydive. 2. The jumpmaster is the primary level of backup should the student fail to attempt to save his/her life by pulling a ripcord. 3. The AAD is the secondary level of backup should both the student and the jumpmaster fail. I do not believe that "the jumpmaster has the responsibility to pull the student's ripcord". The jumpmaster is a backup system that is subject to failure. The student has the responsibility to pull his/her own ripcord on any AFF jump. I believe that this should be made clear to any student who boards an aircraft. A student who believes that "the jumpmaster has the responsibility to pull my ripcord" has decreased motivation for pulling the ripcord him/herself. I want my students to have *maximum motivation* to save their own lives. It's a tough job saving lives all weekend. Tom McCollough D-10882 S/L, AFF Instructor 1991
ds4a@dalton.acc.Virginia.EDU (Dale Southard) (03/22/91)
In article <2020013@hpfelg.HP.COM> larry@hpfelg.HP.COM (Larry Chapman X3117) wri tes: > >[stuff deleted] > > A level IV AFF student doing his 5th jump (2nd of the day) pulled his >cutaway handle at pull time instead of his main rip cord. The student then >became "disoriented", went into a flat spin on his back, and never pulled >his main or reserve rip cords. > > The jump master reportedly followed the student to around 1000' trying >for a "save" then pulled. > > >What could have saved this student? > > 1) A jumpmaster that didn't let him "get away". ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ EXCUSE ME ???? When I went through AFF, it was stressed that the student was responsible for his/her own saftey. Yes, the JM is to assist during freefall, but the JM's first duty is to insure his/her own saftey not the students. That is why we make them take a class first. Yes, the JM pulling would have saved him. But that is NOT the JM's job! How would you feel if you were the JM, and I blamed you? Comments like the above are totally unnecessary. This fatality is NOT the fault of the JM in any way (at least not from the info given here). I hope you don't like to jump there, because a statement like the above will come in quite handy when the DZ get sued into bankruptcy. Probably handy enough for a large settlement against the DZ. There is nothing like having a the defendant admit malpractice to make a trial go quickly.(Trust me, my old DZ got sued 12 years ago, things you never dreamed of will pop up in court and will be used against you.) Please, just the facts, let the FAA acess the blame. --> --> Dale UVa (ds4a@virginia.edu)
jnrees@athena.mit.edu (Jim Rees) (03/22/91)
In article <2020013@hpfelg.HP.COM> larry@hpfelg.HP.COM (Larry Chapman X3117) writes: > >What could have saved this student? > > 1) A jumpmaster that didn't let him "get away". > 2) An AAD that worked (they, like altimeters don't work well in a burble like > encountered when you are upside down). > 3) Pulling the main rip cord (a Stevens line was in place). > 4) Pulling the reserve rip cord. > There really isn't enough information about this fatality in your posting. I, for one, would like to know more about this student's previous training and jumps. For instance, did this student have a habit of not looking at his ripcord when he reached for it? How would he practice this? How was his FJC ground training? Could it be that his instructors and JM's became a little complacent with this student's emergency training after he successfully completed levels I,II, and III? Technically, an AFF JM is always to be in full control of his/her AFF student during ground training, ride to altitude, the skydive, all the way to signing the log book. More specifically, it is the JM's responsibility to pull the student's ripcord (at or above a reasonable altitude) if the student does not. AFF JM's are rated in part by their ability to satisfy this requirement. Without knowing more details of the incident, however, I would not necessarily say that it was possible for the JM to save this student. All in all, a lot of different things could have saved this student. In my opinion, however, good ground instruction is the most important part of student safety. Jim Rees D-13359 SL/AFF JM '91
ds4a@dalton.acc.Virginia.EDU (Dale Southard) (03/22/91)
I just got saome mail concering my last post on the fatality and thought I had better address my intent. I did not intend to flame the poster ar to imply that JMs are not in any war responsible for their students. My arguement was with listing the JMs "failure" (aka the JM let him "get away") as the first reason the fatality occured. I can only assume that the JM tried to pull for the student. In fact he went down to 1000' chasing the student -- that is 2000' lower that the USPA want you to be near a student. For whatever the reason, this student had the equivalent of a total malfunction the correct procedure is to pull. The JM is NOT responsible for implementation of emergency procedures. He/she is to assist in the main pull, if necessary. In this case that may not have been possible. It also may not have helped, depending on the relaibilty of the RSL. At any rate, the #1 failure was that of the student. He failed to initiate emergency procedures. Sorry for any confusion (I really have to do these things at home -- it's so hard to think/proof/post on these terminals). --> --> Dale UVa (ds4a@virginia.edu)
larry@hpfelg.HP.COM (Larry Chapman X3117) (03/26/91)
> 1) A jumpmaster that didn't let him "get away". > 2) An AAD that worked (they, like altimeters don't work well in a burble like > encountered when you are upside down). > 3) Pulling the main rip cord (a Stevens line was in place). > 4) Pulling the reserve rip cord. This list was not meant to be prioritized. The "#1" item just came to mind first . . . Also, I fully realize and understand that the jumper is responsible for his/her own safety. Fact of the matter is the JM should have been there. -- LSC
apengell@axion.bt.co.uk (alan pengelly) (03/27/91)
A similar incident happened in th UK a year or two back. The student in this case was Richard Branson of all people. Fortunately he did not get away since the instructed had noticed throughout the descent that Branson kept going for his cutaway. But had he gone in it would have been his own fault. When a first time jumper goes out on the static line, they are alone. Once they've gone there's nothing really that can be done should they have a problem. The thing that concerns me is that incidents such as the Colorado fatality are all too common - by that I mean that some people have an inability to save themselves. I've often wondered if such people could be weeded out early on. The process of natural selection in the big wide sky is a bit severe. It's not an easy problem. At my local DZ we had a middle aged woman who both myself and the JM's thought was a crater waiting for a grid reference. It was totally subjective. One day she did have a problem, but she handled her emergency procedures perfectly. Another guy who was very confident and brash came within 2 seconds of killing himself after getting disoriented after an unstable exit dive. Some insights to the problem came from a friend of mine who gave up skydiving some years back after an incident. He had to cutaway from a mal, but spent a long time doing nothing before pulling his reserve at about 700'. The CCI asked what on earth he had been thinking about. What he said was quite strange. It was something like `..I was shitting myself, I wanted to go home, I did'nt want to be where I was, I wish I had'nt done this jump, I'd better pull the reserve..'. I think he made the right decision in quitting. Just some food for thought. Alan
SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG (SKYDIVE) (04/01/91)
Reply-to: NICK.DI@p0.f412.n202.z1.fidonet.org (NICK DI GIOVANNI) Fido-To: uiucuxc!hpfelg.fc.hp.com! Not to make a big deal here, but to say the JM should have been there is a little obvious. Some AFF jumps can turn into real whirling derbys. I guess you "could " it AFF's first official bounce. Yet, that other guys was doing AFF too and that one guy is just as dead. It really makes this the second. The fact the JM's didn't have tickets is spitting hairs. It's pretty amazing there's hasn't been more students go in. I've surely seen and heard enough about close ones of the years. I'd really like to know how many AFF jumps are made. Maybe there aren't as many as we think. C-YA Nick --- SLMAIL v1.36M (#0339) --- eecp 1.45 LM2 * Origin: ElectroShokTherapy It Isn't Just 4 Breakfast anymore/no (1:202/412) -- SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13 (ehsnet.fidonet.org)
toad@athena.mit.edu (John P. Jackson) (04/05/91)
In article <2734.27FA00E3@ehsnet.fidonet.org> SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG (SKYDIVE) writes: >Reply-to: NICK.DI@p0.f412.n202.z1.fidonet.org (NICK DI GIOVANNI) >Fido-To: uiucuxc!hpfelg.fc.hp.com! > >guys was doing AFF too and that one guy is just as dead. It really >makes this the second. The fact the JM's didn't have tickets is spitting >hairs. So, are you saying that any ol' jumper is qualified to perform AFF training, and formal certification for such activity is merely a formality? Come on.... > It's pretty amazing there's hasn't been more students go in. I've surely >seen and heard enough about close ones of the years. I'd really like to >know how many AFF jumps are made. Maybe there aren't as many as we think. I have no statistics to readily quote, but I think that the above statement comes from a person who is very out of touch with the outside world. Anyone aggree/disagree? >C-YA >Nick >SKYDIVE - via FidoNet node 1:233/13 (ehsnet.fidonet.org) John Jackson toad@athena.mit.edu
ds4a@dalton.acc.Virginia.EDU (Dale Southard) (04/06/91)
In article <1991Apr5.001044.20834@athena.mit.edu> toad@athena.mit.edu (John P. Jackson) writes: >In article <2734.27FA00E3@ehsnet.fidonet.org> SKYDIVE@f15.n233.z1.FIDONET.ORG (SKYDIVE) writes: >>Reply-to: NICK.DI@p0.f412.n202.z1.fidonet.org (NICK DI GIOVANNI) >>Fido-To: uiucuxc!hpfelg.fc.hp.com! >> >>guys was doing AFF too and that one guy is just as dead. It really >>makes this the second. The fact the JM's didn't have tickets is spitting >>hairs. > > So, are you saying that any ol' jumper is qualified to perform AFF > training, and formal certification for such activity is merely a > formality? Come on.... Actually, only one of the AFF J/Ms in the first fatality was unrated. He was "posing" as a rated J/M and had been doing so for a while. I think Nick's point was that just cause the first fatality wasn't up to USPA standard doesn't make it a non-AFF fatality. While we're discussing it, has anyone ever had their AFF rating checked at a new DZ?. I have jumpmastered/instructed AFF/SL at three DZ's and have never had any of them check my ratings. Perhaps that's why I keep skydiving -- the TRUST of complete strangers. Gives me that "warm-fuzzy" feeling every weekend. --> --> Dale UVa (ds4a@virginia.edu)