andy@88opensi.UUCP (Andy Silverman) (11/02/90)
MOTOROLA DETAILS RISC PLANS Denser parts, lower prices, upgrade paths, new markets Burlingame, Calif--October 10, 1990--In a series of related announcements, Motorola's Microprocessor Products Group today underscored its long-term committment to competing in the reduced-instruction-set computing (RISC) market. "Over the next few years, we'll be bringing to market the most powerful processors commercially available," saif Jeff Nutt, marketing manager of the 88000 family. "Motorola is committed to a sustained and agressive program to bring the 88000 to the desktop," he continued. First Look at Second Generation At the Microprocessor Forum here, Motorola described, in general terms and for the first time, the architecture of its second-generation RISC CPU, designated the 88110. Scheduled for introduction next year, and containing more than 1.4 million transistors, the 88110 will not only perform the combined functions of its software-compatible predecessors, the 88100 CPU and the 88200 cache and memory management units -- but it will perform them three to five times faster. In addition, the 88110 will feature multiple integer, floating point and graphics execution units, an 80-bit wide internal data path, improved handling of instructions sustaining more than one instruction per clock, and branch acceleration to maintain continuous execution. It will be fabricated with a 0.8-micron HCMOS process. Essentially, the 88110 will be a turbocharged, single chip version of the 88100/88200 chip set. At the 88110 introduction in 1991, Motorola will be providing a complete suite of development tools and support chips including C-compilers, assemblers and application development systems. Motorola's 88000 architects see the leap in performance expected from the 88110 as but the first phase of an evolution. The third-generation CPU, also in design, will have more execution units, a wider data path, and even greater parallelism. It will be fabricated in BiCMOS and approach speeds of 100MHz. Assuming a quadrupling of performance by each new generation, 88000 engines of the late 1990s will be single-chip microprocessors containing 100 million transistors clocked at 300MHz. Motorola's engineers see a RISC chip with a throughput exceeding 300 MIPS as a distinct possibility by the year 2000. Motorola also disclosed the development of a line of 88000-based embedded RISC processors. Named the 88300 family, these embedded RISC processors will retain software compatibility with 88000 CPUs and provide single chip solutions targeted for embedded control applications. Increasing Market Momentum Philips Data Systems (Appleforn, Holland) recently announced their intent to market 88000-based multi-user servers in Europe. Currentl there are more than sixty-seven 88000-based hardware platforms from more than 50 vendors worldwide. Smaller Prices, Bigger Markets The economies of very-large-scale integration and advances in manufacturing technology are making the 88000 available to wider market segments. Just last month, Motorola reduced the prices of the 88110 and 88200 by an average of 67% which provides 88000 products as low as $3.50 per MIP. Gains in price/performance will continue beyond the generation of the 88110, giving impetus to the use of the 88100 in the following categories of equipment: - Desktop PCs. For cost-conscious personal-computer builders, the performance of RISC is attractive, but only if it can be provided on a turnkey, under-$1000 circuit board thatcan run industry-standard operating systems, applications and networks. The latter requirement will be satisified by all 88000 family members, through compliance to the 88open Consortium's binary compatibility standard (BCS) for portability of applications now available on 88000-based systems. More than 1,500 applications are now available on 88ooo-based computer systems. Of these packages, 60 have been certified BCS-compliant with the majority expected to go through the certification process within the next six months. - Embedded Controllers. Designers of equipment with embedded CPUs look for high integration, low power consumption and low cost to give them a competitive edge. Motorola's upcoming 88300 family of embeddedRISC processors will be architecturally compatible with the 88000 family, as well as I/O compatible with the 68300 family of CISC embedded controllers. - File Servers. Speed will continue to be the basic requirement of file servers, the information distributers of network computing. Integrated or assembled in a multiprocessing scheme, parallel RISC CPUs will channel data from node to node as quickly as it can be requested. Motorola is one of the world's leading suppliers of electronic equipment, systems, components, and services for worldwide markets. Products include two-way radios, pagers, cellular telepone systems, semiconducters, defense and aerospace electronics, automotive amd industrial equipment, computers, amd data-communications and information processingand handling equipment. Motorola was a winner of the first annual Malcom Baldrige National Quality Award in 1988, inrecognition of its superior company-wide quality management process.
mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) (11/06/90)
In article <569@88opensi.UUCP> andy@88opensi.UUCP (Andy Silverman) writes: >MOTOROLA DETAILS RISC PLANS .... >Philips Data Systems (Appleforn, Holland) recently announced their intent >to market 88000-based multi-user servers in Europe. Currentl there are more >than sixty-seven 88000-based hardware platforms from more than 50 vendors >worldwide. Is there a publication that lists the public subset of these? I'd be happy to get one if there is, so I can update the foils I use. >on 88000-based systems. More than 1,500 applications are now available on >88ooo-based computer systems. Of these packages, 60 have been certified >BCS-compliant with the majority expected to go through the certification >process within the next six months. Is there a current 88Open catalog or something that lists the 1,500? (Those we have here are fairly old.) -- -john mashey DISCLAIMER: <generic disclaimer, I speak for me only, etc> UUCP: mash@mips.com OR {ames,decwrl,prls,pyramid}!mips!mash DDD: 408-524-7015, 524-8253 or (main number) 408-720-1700 USPS: MIPS Computer Systems, 930 E. Arques, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) (11/06/90)
In article <42763@mips.mips.COM> mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) writes: >In article <569@88opensi.UUCP> andy@88opensi.UUCP (Andy Silverman) writes: >>MOTOROLA DETAILS RISC PLANS .... >>to market 88000-based multi-user servers in Europe. Currentl there are more >>than sixty-seven 88000-based hardware platforms from more than 50 vendors >>worldwide. >Is there a publication that lists the public subset of these? >I'd be happy to get one if there is, so I can update the foils I use. People wrote me that the 88Open Sourcebook, November 1990 had at least a subset of the public ones, as well as software. Somebody picked one up at UNIX Expo, so I can answer these questions. >>on 88000-based systems. More than 1,500 applications are now available on >>88ooo-based computer systems. Of these packages, 60 have been certified >>BCS-compliant with the majority expected to go through the certification >>process within the next six months. >Is there a current 88Open catalog or something that lists the 1,500? >(Those we have here are fairly old.) Here are the summaries: 1) H/W vendors: 61 products from 9 vendors: 3 CETia 19 DG 10 Dolphin Server 2 Encore 1 Harris 9 Motorola 7 Norsk (These are different names for DG W/S or Dolphin servers) 9 Opus 1 Prometa AB -------TOTAL 61 (unless you subtract the Norsk ones as double-counts, getting 54 then) 2) S/W: 314 packages. These are in various stages of certification; I didn't count, but the estimate of 60 certified looked about right. Most of them are labeled "Planned Compliant", some are "In Progress" I couldn't find anything in the book about availability and such, so I have no idea where on the scale it fits: 3rd-party catalogs around the industry vary wildly in availability requirements to be listed, from "will port within 6 months" to "must be shippable". 4 AI 38 DBMS 1 Earth Resources 90 General Business 13 Imaging/Graphics 4 Networking & Comm 37 Office Automation 22 Science & Engineering 105 Software Engineering --- TOTAL 314 -- -john mashey DISCLAIMER: <generic disclaimer, I speak for me only, etc> UUCP: mash@mips.com OR {ames,decwrl,prls,pyramid}!mips!mash DDD: 408-524-7015, 524-8253 or (main number) 408-720-1700 USPS: MIPS Computer Systems, 930 E. Arques, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
lewine@dg-rtp.dg.com (Donald Lewine) (11/07/90)
|> Is there a current 88Open catalog or something that lists the 1,500? |> (Those we have here are fairly old.) |> -- |> -john mashey DISCLAIMER: <generic disclaimer, I speak for me only, etc> The new catalog was released last week for Unix Expo in New York City. It is 475 pages. It is restricted to sowtare which is certified to meet 88open binary compatibility standards. Every entry lists the certification status. Copies are available from: 88open Consortium Ltd. 100 Homeland Courrt, Suite 800 San Jose, CA 95112 (408) 436-6600 (408) 436-0725 (FAX) I believe that single copies are free and multiple copies are $4 each. Contact 88open for details. By the way, each entry also describes the level of internationalization support available. I thought that was a nice touch. It is also interesting to compare the 88open book to the IBM AIX book. IBM wins on ``thud factor''. The IBM book in the size of the Manhattan Yellow Pages. However, if you look closely most of the entries are for AIX on a PS/2 and are really MS-DOS applications. The list of RS/6000 applications is only a small percentage of the book. I guess that there are about the same number of RS/6000 applications as 88open applications. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald A. Lewine (508) 870-9008 Voice Data General Corporation (508) 366-0750 FAX 4400 Computer Drive. MS D112A Westboro, MA 01580 U.S.A. uucp: uunet!dg!lewine Internet: lewine@cheshirecat.webo.dg.com
lewine@dg-rtp.dg.com (Donald Lewine) (11/07/90)
In article <42805@mips.mips.COM>, mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) writes: |> |> Here are the summaries: |> 1) H/W vendors: 61 products from 9 vendors: |> |> 3 CETia |> 19 DG |> 10 Dolphin Server |> 2 Encore |> 1 Harris |> 9 Motorola |> 7 Norsk (These are different names for DG W/S or Dolphin servers) |> 9 Opus |> 1 Prometa AB |> -------TOTAL |> 61 (unless you subtract the Norsk ones as double-counts, getting 54 then) This is only vendors who have 88open Certified systems. There are many 88000 users who are either not using BCS compatible software (e.g. BB&N) or do not want to pay for certification. |> |> 2) S/W: 314 packages. These are in various stages of certification; |> I didn't count, but the estimate of 60 certified looked about right. |> Most of them are labeled "Planned Compliant", some are "In Progress" |> I couldn't find anything in the book about availability and such, |> so I have no idea where on the scale it fits: |> 3rd-party catalogs around the industry vary wildly in availability |> requirements to be listed, from "will port within 6 months" to |> "must be shippable". |> |> 4 AI |> 38 DBMS |> 1 Earth Resources |> 90 General Business |> 13 Imaging/Graphics |> 4 Networking & Comm |> 37 Office Automation |> 22 Science & Engineering |> 105 Software Engineering |> --- TOTAL |> 314 Again, this is only certified (or planned to be certified) applications. There are many applications which are unique to Data General. This may be due to unique Data General hardware, unique DG/UX software features or a special relationship between Data General and the ISV. I am sure that there are other applications unique to Motorola, Encore, Harris, etc. In short, it is not fair to assign a penalty to the 88000 because there is an 88open Compatibility Certification program. The catalog list 314 packages in various stages of certification. How many other chip vendors have software *CERTIFIED* to run on multiple platforms? How rigorous is the certification process? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald A. Lewine (508) 870-9008 Voice Data General Corporation (508) 366-0750 FAX 4400 Computer Drive. MS D112A Westboro, MA 01580 U.S.A. uucp: uunet!dg!lewine Internet: lewine@cheshirecat.webo.dg.com
mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) (11/09/90)
In article <1116@dg.dg.com> uunet!dg!lewine writes: >In article <42805@mips.mips.COM>, mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) writes: >|> Here are the summaries: >|> 1) H/W vendors: 61 products from 9 vendors: >|> 3 CETia >|> 19 DG ..... >|> -------TOTAL >|> 61 (unless you subtract the Norsk ones as double-counts, getting 54 then) (Note: I screwed up slightly, and didn't include the Tektronix ones, but it turns out that doesn't change the discussion much.) > This is only vendors who have 88open Certified systems. There > are many 88000 users who are either not using BCS compatible > software (e.g. BB&N) or do not want to pay for certification. Well, this is why I posted this, just trying to understand the numbers. Many numbers get thrown around in this business, especially in the marketing wars, and sometimes it's hard to understand what they MEAN, often because there is no way to even get the slightest check on them. I am happy to receive any enlightenment, so this is helpful. However, I still don't understand some numbers: The Motorola announcement said: "Philips Data Systems (Appleforn, Holland) recently announced their intent to market 88000-based multi-user servers in Europe. Currentl there are more than sixty-seven 88000-based hardware platforms from more than 50 vendors worldwide." Now, here's where I get confused. Both of these numbers say >, which covers a lot, but 67, especially is rather specific. Put these two sets of numbers together: Source H/W prods Vendors 88Open 61 9 88Open' 54 8 (I.e., if you remove the obvious duplicates) Announ >67 >50 Now, if you take >67 as meaning 68, and >50 as 51, then it looks like 68-61 = 9 hardware platforms come from 51-9 = 42 vendors, which seems strange, as it gives each additional vendor (beyond those above) about 1/4 of a platform. Likewise, if you use the second line's #s, you find that 68-54 = 14 h/w platforms come from 51-8 = 43 vendors, or 1/3 platform/vendor. Of course, since they both said greater than, anything can be possible. If you assume that Motorola an 88Open are counting in the same way, then there must be at least 103 platforms and 51 vendors, assuming 1 apiece for the >42 vendors not listed above. (But if there were, why wouldn't Moto have said >100, rather than >67? I sure would! :-) Maybe different groups are counting different ways? Maybe Moto is counting things that are coming (note they didn't say the platforms were available, just that hey ARE), whereas the Sourcebook's are already shipping. Summary of this part: maybe somebody from Moto would post what their numbers MEAN, because the numbers seem strange when compared against the 88Open stuff. Either Moto is NOT counting as separate products many things listed in the 888Open book, OR they are strangely under-saying how many platforms there are, OR something is being counted several times. > >|> 2) S/W: 314 packages. These are in various stages of certification; >|> I didn't count, but the estimate of 60 certified looked about right. >|> Most of them are labeled "Planned Compliant", some are "In Progress" >|> I couldn't find anything in the book about availability and such, >|> so I have no idea where on the scale it fits: >|> 3rd-party catalogs around the industry vary wildly in availability >|> requirements to be listed, from "will port within 6 months" to >|> "must be shippable". >|> --- TOTAL >|> 314 > Again, this is only certified (or planned to be certified) > applications. There are many applications which are unique > to Data General. This may be due to unique Data General > hardware, unique DG/UX software features or a special > relationship between Data General and the ISV. > I am sure that there are other applications unique to > Motorola, Encore, Harris, etc. > In short, it is not fair to assign a penalty to the 88000 > because there is an 88open Compatibility Certification > program. The catalog list 314 packages in various stages of > certification. How many other chip vendors have software > *CERTIFIED* to run on multiple platforms? How rigorous is the > certification process? I wasn't try to penalize anybody; again, I just don't ever accept numbers on faith. Is it possible to get a DG 3rd-party catalog? (We'll trade you a RISCware catalog for it...) I certainly expect that there are applications specific to vendors, but let me quote again from the Moto announcement: "- Desktop PCs. For cost-conscious personal-computer builders, the performance of RISC is attractive, but only if it can be provided on a turnkey, under-$1000 circuit board thatcan run industry-standard operating systems, applications and networks. The latter requirement will be satisified by all 88000 family members, through compliance to the 88open Consortium's binary compatibility standard (BCS) for portability of applications now available on 88000-based systems. More than 1,500 applications are now available on 88ooo-based computer systems. Of these packages, 60 have been certified BCS-compliant with the majority expected to go through the certification process within the next six months." It says that there are >1,500 applications available. It says that 60 have been certified Compliant. It says that the majority are expected to go thru certification in next 6 months. Majority = >50%, i.e., 750 applications, 2.5X the total listed in the 88Open Sourcebook, so there must be a huge number out there, in the mill, but NOT listed in the book, even though the book lists a whole lot of things that are not yet "in Progress". Now, there may well be applications that are unique to DG, Harris, etc... If they are truly unique, and won't run on other people's hardware (either for technical or commercial reasons), then does it make sense to say: "More than .... within next six months." ?? I'm NOT saying they SHOULD, by the way, just that if you run around claiming a zillion apps that apps that will be certified across multiple vendors, you CAN'T count the stuff that won't..... if you believe in these bean-counting wars at all....) Actually, it might be worth looking in detail at the 88Open Sourcebooks, Rev 2 (Nov 89), and Rev 3 (Nov 90). If we look at the Nov 1989 88Open Sourcebook, Issue 2, we find the following, with some overlapping entries that I didn't have the patience to weed out. All ofthe "Planned Compliant" software listed availability dates, mostly during 2Q-3Q 1990. Planned Other Category Cmplnt 88K s/w 55 13 Languages 13 13 Cross-compilers 47 16 Devel support 12 2 Graphics 12 1 Communications 20 28 Business 2 1 Emulation s/w 5 3 Special S/W 8 OS's ---------------- 166 85 TOTALS (251 listings, but with some redundant) Now, here is a similar analysis of Rev 3, including fixes to a couple counting errors I made the last time (left out Manufacturing, sorry!) Entries PlnCmp InProg CERT 4 2 1 1 AI 37 12 11 14 DBMS 1 1 - - Earth Resources 90 73 7 10 General Business 13 7 6 - Imaging/Graphics 18 15 3 - Manufacturing 4 3 1 - Networking & Comm 37 23 6 8 Office Automation 22 14 7 1 Science & Engineering 105 45 27 33 Software Engineering --- --- -- -- ------ 331 195 69 67 TOTALS I've read the definitions of Certified, In Progress, and Planned Compliant, and here are the relevant pieces: Certified: Tested and complies, "shipping on all certified systems." In Progress: Product is in process of obtaining certification. Planned Compliant: "The product is committed to compatibility to the 88open standards and will be available on all certified systems." Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I think they mean, FROM THE VIEW OF SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO BUY A MACHINE AND SOFTWARE: 1) Certified: this is good. I can buy any of several machines from different vendors, and the software will run on them. Availability: I'd expect that I order it, and get it shipped. 2) In Progress: I'm not sure what this means. I think it means that: 2a) At some future date, it will turn Certified, and then I'm up to Case 1). 2b) Right now, I assume it might run on 1 or more (but not certified for all, because if it were, it would be Certified) of the machines, and it's hard to believe it would be In Progress if it didn't run at all! Availability: I'm not sure, since the Source Book doesn't say. I'd guess that if I call up the s/w vendor, they'll say: 2c) We've tested it on vendor A, B, ... and it works under these software revs. OR 2d) We've tested it on A & B, but you have C, and we think it works there, although we haven't tested it. 3) Planned Compliant: I think I get the same answers as 2, except that since it isn't "In Progress", it must be further out in time. and so, it might possibly get the answer: 3a) Not yet. I don't know the criteria for being listed here. Can anybody say? (I would think that ANY ISV who has a chunk of software that runs on, or might someday run on, any compliant box, would want to be listed here, and 88Open would certainly want to list them, I think. The logic of the way 3rd-party catalogs work is that people don't leave things out if they can help it :-) FINALLY, why do I find all these numbers inconsistent? 1) Last year, there were 251 listings, of which 166 were Planned Compliant. 2) One year later, we have: 195 Planned Compliant, but not yet in progress 69 In progress 67 Certifieds (of which half are s/w development tools) 3) However, Motorola says that in next 6 months, the majority of 1500 (>750) will go thru the certification process, i.e., 10X more than have been done in the last year. (Now, I realized there is a natural ramp effect, but if 750 are going to happen in the next year, why are only 69 In Progress, and 195 Planned Compliant (not even In Progress, yet)? 4) If I'm a buyer, what do I REALLY do? (right now) If there are really 1500 applications "available", i.e., I really can buy them, then the "majority" (in fact, >1100) are specific in some way, and so far, have not been thrown in the pot for Certification, and in fact, may not be likely to do so. So, what I do is: a) Pick the applications b) Pick a few possible candidate h/w platforms c) Call up the ISVs and see WHICH PLATFORMS they ACTUALLY support the software on.... BECAUSE: Right now, the certified list is pretty small. 5) Bottom line: I'll happily listen to anybody who can explain thse, but these numbers don't add up for me, or else I misunderstand the use of English words like "available": EITHER: a) The "1500 available" number counts in some way I don't understand. OR: b) There's a huge number of things that are actually in the mill at 88Open, but are not listed in the catalog, and a huge acceleration is underway, i.e., a 20X faster rate (10X apps in .5 time). OR: c) There is a lot of software out there, but people have little interest in having it certified, but instead, work thru the 3rd-party porting group within each vendor, i.e., in the usual old time-honored way :-) 6) Most of this analysis was occasioned by simply thinking about a few numbers, and bashing them together, and trying to figure out what the words mean, to work thru some occasionally vague things. To finish up, let me try a simpler example. MIPS RISCware catalog. Number of s/w application entries (and we only count software, not hardware, training courses, etc), is shown below. What's criterion for being listed? Easy: the application is demonstable, the vendor will take an order for it, and will ship it to you. (Seems pretty simple). Oct 89 Oct 90 203 665 (and at this instant, 772, as we've typically been adding >100/month, lately). -- -john mashey DISCLAIMER: <generic disclaimer, I speak for me only, etc> UUCP: mash@mips.com OR {ames,decwrl,prls,pyramid}!mips!mash DDD: 408-524-7015, 524-8253 or (main number) 408-720-1700 USPS: MIPS Computer Systems, 930 E. Arques, Sunnyvale, CA 94086
ndoduc@framentec.fr (Nhuan Doduc) (11/09/90)
I wish to add that TELMAT, another french manufacturer which is known elsewhere for their Transputer-based SuperNode ..., has announced many 88K machines ..... but most interest thing is that they will run SysV r4 (and they keep telling that this is a first, at least in Europe !) --nh Nhuan DODUC, Framentec-Cognitech, Paris, France, ndoduc@framentec.fr or ndoduc@cognitech.fr, Association Francaise des Utilisateurs d'Unix, France, doduc@afuu.fr
malc@iconsys.icon.com (Malcolm Weir) (11/14/90)
In article <42958@mips.mips.COM> mash@mips.COM (John Mashey) writes: >MIPS RISCware catalog. Number of s/w application entries (and we only >count software, not hardware, training courses, etc), is shown below. > >What's criterion for being listed? Easy: the application is demonstable, >the vendor will take an order for it, and will ship it to you. >(Seems pretty simple). > > Oct 89 Oct 90 > 203 665 (and at this instant, 772, as we've typically > been adding >100/month, lately). >-- >-john mashey DISCLAIMER: <generic disclaimer, I speak for me only, etc> >UUCP: mash@mips.com OR {ames,decwrl,prls,pyramid}!mips!mash >DDD: 408-524-7015, 524-8253 or (main number) 408-720-1700 >USPS: MIPS Computer Systems, 930 E. Arques, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 But again, you miss the point: there is no place to look for a list of applications that will run on BOTH MIPS and DEC and ... systems. Also, note that applications that use a certified run-time system are not listed, but they are available (e.g. many COBOL compilers require a run-time package. If XY-COBOL is certified, then the huge quantity of XY-COBOL applications becomes available, BUT NOT CERTIFIED!) This is a game played by many vendors in order to fill the 3rd part catalog. I know Moto Comp. Sys. Div., SCO, ARIX, NCR, Unisys, Uniforum and others list COBOL, BASIC, Informix, Progress, etc. etc. packages as available, supported applications. They are not ever likely to be certified 88Open compliant, but they are reasons why people choose to buy the box. Anyway, with Comdex hanging about, everybody can now play "Count the 3rd Party Apps". Just go up to your friendly neighborhood competitor and ask to see a list of supported apps. Its a stunningly pointless pastime, but it seems to amuse the bean counters of most marketing departments. Malc. P.s. how about renaming this group "comp.sys.mashey"? ;-)
prc@erbe.se (Robert Claeson) (11/15/90)
In a recent article malc@iconsys.icon.com (Malcolm Weir) writes: >This is a game played by many vendors in order to fill the 3rd part catalog. >I know Moto Comp. Sys. Div., SCO, ARIX, NCR, Unisys, Uniforum and others list >COBOL, BASIC, Informix, Progress, etc. etc. packages as available, supported >applications. They are not ever likely to be certified 88Open compliant, but >they are reasons why people choose to buy the box. A quick glance throgh the latest 88open Sourcebook revealed that there are several BASIC, COBOL and whatever packages that are fully certified. -- Robert Claeson |Reasonable mailers: rclaeson@erbe.se ERBE DATA AB | Dumb mailers: rclaeson%erbe.se@sunet.se Jakobsberg, Sweden | Perverse mailers: rclaeson%erbe.se@encore.com Any opinions expressed herein definitely belongs to me and not to my employer.
gary@proa.sv.dg.com (Gary Bridgewater) (11/15/90)
In article <1990Nov13.193744.805@iconsys.icon.com> malc@iconsys.icon.com (Malcolm Weir) writes: >P.s. how about renaming this group "comp.sys.mashey"? ;-) From his mouth to our sales brochures :->. I don't see a problem with a competitor taking an interest in this group. He seems to want to keep the field level and clean as should all up-front vendors. Besides - he keeps saying those really awful things about SPARCs. -- Gary Bridgewater, Data General Corporation, Sunnyvale California gary@sv.dg.com or {amdahl,aeras,amdcad}!dgcad!gary C++ - it's the right thing to do.