jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) (11/07/89)
What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various 45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman just dropped their price to $799. How is that? jas -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer jas@venera.isi.edu | Information Sciences Institute jas@isi.edu DELPHI: JSULLIVAN | University of Southern California
korn@anableps.berkeley.edu (Peter "Arrgh" Korn) (11/07/89)
In <10433@venera.isi.edu>, jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) said: > >What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various >45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman >just dropped their price to $799. How is that? I *just* unpacked and started playing with my $799 Ehman/Syquest 44 Meg removable. Here are my comments, in no particular order... > Reasonably fast (2.8 to 4.6 MBaud/sec. transfer rates using SCSI Evaluator). > Fairly quiet (ie: not as loud as my Mac II which has a custom fan that makes is about as quiet as a Mac SE). It has a higher pitch whine than the MacII; I can definitely tell when it is on and a disk is inserted and spinning. Most of the noise comes from the drive mechanism (the tiny fan is inaudible over the noise of the MacII), so I doubt that the Ehman will be any noisier than any other Syquest drive. > Shoddy documentation (they provide two programs that can format the disks, and don't make it clear which to use [two separate manuals, one for each program; one of which spends most of it's time explaining the Finder!]). > Poor support - it's a good thing I have a speaker phone as I've been put on hold for almost 5 minutes, only to have someone come on and ask who I'm holding for & if I've been helped prior to another 3 minute wait. > I'm not thrilled with their DB-25 SCSI connectors, but the cable they provide is short enough, well-insulated enough, that it should do. > The disks (as shipped from Ehman; perhaps they come this way from Syquest?) are pre-formatted with an interleave of 2. Needless to say, I had to reformat it to an interleave of 1 for my MacII. Their documentation tells you to avoid formatting at all costs, and that you shouldn't need to format the disks b/c they come pre-formatted. SCSI Evaluator results on a MacII with the interleave set to 2 as shipped range from 1.9 MBaud/sec. to 3.2 MBaud/sec. [roughly; these are from memory]). > With companies they try to get terms (at least the West Coast salesperson), and this wound up delaying the rush order by over a week when we told them we were happy with COD. > After running for 8 hours straight in a 'room temperature' office (~65 degrees or so), the metal casing of the drive was cool, if not downright cold. The disk itself (or rather the plastic casing) was not as cool as the metal casing, but not yet warm to the touch. After a few days of continuous running I'll have better data. Summary preliminary conclusions (and other obfuscatory oxymorons): The hardware looks good thus far; the docs. are very poor, as is the company thus far. For a savings of $200 that's maybe worth it. The *real* question of hardware reliability will take longer to answer. Anyone else out there with data on Ehman Syquest drive reliability? Peter Korn -- Peter "Arrgh" Korn korn@mica.Berkeley.EDU {decvax,hplabs,sdcsvax,ulysses,usenix}!ucbvax!mica!korn
wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu (William M. Bumgarner) (11/07/89)
I would reccommend the MicroTech drive-- MicroTech is very willing to cut a deal for educational purchasers. As far as performance goes, I have set up quite a few Syquest based systems (all Microtech), and have never heard of a complaint or problem. The 42 (formatted)meg cartridges seem to be very reliable and fairly fast. MicroTech's warranties are very reasonable and their service department seemed responsive (I had a few random questions at one point in time). b.bum wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu
wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu (William M. Bumgarner) (11/08/89)
From what others have mentioned, it sounds as if Ehman is not a very good company to work with. Micortech will usually drop the price on their drives to $850-$950 if you give them a call. For the 2 year warranty (hardware)/1 year warranty (cartridge), usable software, and very helpful service; it might be worth the extra cash. BTW: the MicroTech drive is very quiet; you can tell it is running, but it is far from disturbing. b.bum wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu
jchiu@se-sd.NCR.COM (Jeff Chiu) (11/08/89)
About these 45M removable drives, what's their noise level compared to say diskless SE (good), SE with internal HD (OK), or SE with the old fan (very noisy like my CMS-60 jet engine)? Jeff C. -- jeff.chiu@sandiego.ncr.com jchiu@se-sd.sandiego.ncr.com (uunet or att)!ncrlnk!ncr-sd!se-sd!jchiu ucsd!se-sd!jchiu
rf1m+@andrew.cmu.edu (Richard Vernon Ford) (11/08/89)
This is another Pro Microtech post. A friend of mine and I researched SyQuest drives earlier this semester, looking at both Ehman and Microtech. Microtech had the superior reputation, but we investigated Ehman as well. Ehman made us wait along time on the phone when we were looking for information about their product, we got the impression their service/tech support dept is very small. We weren't impressed talking to their rep. They didn't do anything to dissuade our pro-Microtech leanings. Because we were college students, Microtech offered to drop their price into the$850/$950 range, and in addition threw in a terminator and all cables we needed We didn't ever have to wait long on the phone to talk to someone there, they delivered the equipment promptly as promised and it has run reliably for the past 2 months. I haven't used their backup or other software enough to comment. It won't wow you, but has the reputation of being superior to Ehmans. Microtech got two sales from us. I hope they keep up the good work. -Richard Ford
jg2f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jude Anand George) (11/08/89)
wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu (William M. Bumgarner) writes: > Micortech will usually drop the price on their drives to $850-$950 if you > give them a call. For the 2 year warranty (hardware)/1 year warranty > (cartridge), usable software, and very helpful service; it might be worth > the extra cash. I purchased an R45 & disk for $850 over the summer, in a 2-person group deal. However, when my drive showed up, it wouldn't read! It would just flash an "SOS" error code on the red and green indicator lights. So I sent it back and asked them to fix it. But when they got it, they called me and said there was nothing wrong with it! And sure enough, when I got it back, it worked fine. Now, I would just write this off to luck, but I remember that someone had earlier posted on the net (or was it at CMU?) that exactly the same thing happened to them! Perhaps Microtech is fixing the drives, and refuses to let us believe that they were faulty in the first place. Since then, though, I've had absolutely no problem with it. People have also questioned whether it can be left on indefinitely and used as primary storage. Well, I've had mine on continuously, usually with the same disk in it, for 2 months now. > BTW: the MicroTech drive is very quiet; you can tell it is running, but > it is far from disturbing. I agree... I can't hear it at all with my Mac II running, except on a read or write. / ::::UUCP:::: the_known_world!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!jg2f+ %\/ Jude Anand George :::BITNET::: jg2f+@ANDREW | jg2f+%andrew@{CMCCVB|CMCCVMA} \/\ endanger judo age ::Internet:: jg2f+@andrew.cmu.edu \ :Compuserve: >INET:jg2f+@andrew.cmu.edu
jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Jim Wright) (11/08/89)
Count this as one vote against MassMicro. I have a dual cartridge drive and a single cartridge. The dual is particularly bad with respect to cooling. If left on for more than about 10 hours, it overheats and refuses to recognize cartridges when inserted. The cartridges are markedly warm when removed after as little as an hour. The power supplies are rotten. One (of the two) p/s in the dual died. With much arm-twisting, they sent a replacement. The replacement is marginally better (i.e. it'll run the drive, usually). The dual is about 18 months old; certainly out of warranty. The p/s on the single died within 2 weeks of arrival. It's been gone for three weeks now for repairs. Not a peep from them about it yet. Their service is not inspiring. Our work *requires* the daily use of these drives. Being down is unacceptable. That's why we got the dual, and then the additional single--for reliability. Hah. With half of the dual working, we could still limp along. I verified the p/s as faulty. They would not send a replacement, which we were willing to fully pay for. It took about a week and a dozen calls to finally get them to ship it. They refused to send schematics, but this isn't out of line with other companies' policies. The documentation is written for about a third grade level. They really give no useful information. I don't care if a manual has five chapters of hand-holding, but I want at least an appendix with some meat to it. I can't really comment on the software, since I have little basis for comparison. My feeling is that the software is above average. You can password protect volumes, partition cartridges into volumes, etc. I don't use this, though. From the sound of others' replies, our next units will be from MicroTech. -- Jim Wright jwright@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu
isr@rodan.acs.syr.edu ( ISR group account) (11/09/89)
I have one of MicroNet's R45 models, (single removable). It's been about a month now and there've been no problems except that when it came, two of the screws which hold the top of the case onto the bottom were missing. Not in the box, Not in the drive, Not on the floor. They, at one time, had been screwed into the case, since I could see the marks. (self-tapping sheet metal screws). I didn't bother calling them about it. The software supports partitioning and password protecting and selecting various desktop icons. The manual's content is ok, physically it's just 8x11 laserprinted on heavy paper with a extra heavy cover page stapled together Soundwise, I can't hear it over a Mac II except when it spins up. It has two 50pin connectors, 3' cable, external DIP switches for ID. One interesting point I've noticed is that, if a cartridge is inserted when the Mac powers up, it will appear on the desktop or boot from it, but if a cartrdige is inserted after the Mac has powered up I have to run something that scans the SCSI bus for the MAc to recognize it. (The MicroNet S/W, SCSI DA, and Jasmine DriveWare all seem to do this) I don't know if this is common to all Syquests or just this one. Jasmine Megafloppies (Ack, Ack, ptoo!)[Anyone want to buy a pair of 'em] don't have this problem - they mount when inserted. All in all, it works fine, and is fast - the software recognizes your machine and defaults to the optimal formatting for it, though you can change it if you want. Mike -- Mike Schechter, Institute for Sensory Research, Syracuse Univ. InterNet: isr@rodan.syr.edu msschech@rodan.syr.edu Bitnet: SENSORY@SUNRISE
jg2f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jude Anand George) (11/09/89)
isr@rodan.acs.syr.edu ( ISR group account) writes: > I have one of MicroNet's R45 models, (single removable). It's been about [..] > One interesting point I've noticed is that, if a cartridge is inserted when > the Mac powers up, it will appear on the desktop or boot from it, but > if a cartrdige is inserted after the Mac has powered up I have to run > something that scans the SCSI bus for the MAc to recognize it. > (The MicroNet S/W, SCSI DA, and Jasmine DriveWare all seem to do this) > I don't know if this is common to all Syquests or just this one. This is not true of Microtech or PLI drives. An INIT is provided that polls the drive every second for insertions, similar to how the Mac ROMs poll the floppy drive. / ::::UUCP:::: the_known_world!harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!jg2f+ %\/ Jude Anand George :::BITNET::: jg2f+@ANDREW | jg2f+%andrew@{CMCCVB|CMCCVMA} \/\ dungeon rage jade ::Internet:: jg2f+@andrew.cmu.edu \ :Compuserve: >INET:jg2f+@andrew.cmu.edu
macak@lakesys.lakesys.com (James Macak) (11/09/89)
In article <19235@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> korn@anableps.berkeley.edu (Peter "Arrgh" Korn) writes: >In <10433@venera.isi.edu>, jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) said: >> >>What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various >>45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman > >I *just* unpacked and started playing with my $799 Ehman/Syquest 44 Meg >removable. Here are my comments, in no particular order... >> Reasonably fast (2.8 to 4.6 MBaud/sec. transfer rates using SCSI Evaluator). >Summary preliminary conclusions (and other obfuscatory oxymorons): >The hardware looks good thus far; the docs. are very poor, as is the company >thus far. For a savings of $200 that's maybe worth it. The *real* question >of hardware reliability will take longer to answer. Anyone else out there >with data on Ehman Syquest drive reliability? >Peter Korn Our Macintosh users group recently purchased the Ehman Syquest-based 44 meg removable drive. It has been running on a BBS for about a month now with no major problems I can attribute to the drive, save for one. (See below.) I agree with Peter's comments about the drive... reasonably fast, not _too_ noisy, adeqaute cable, etc. A couple of additions I'd make: the Ehman-written docs are apparently for their non-removable hard drives, as is their utilities disk. (Before I realized this I had tried to install SCSI drivers from the Ehman disk with very poor results.) The other docs I received were from Software Architects, as was the other disk of utilities. Theirs is the SCSI installer to use, in my experience. Ehman did include an insert that claims they are working on their own docs for the removable drive. Now, the problem. I had the BBS up and running one evening when the power went out. Later it came on but went off and on a few more times. The Mac and Ehman drive went through a few such power outages. Within a couple of days, the BBS had crashed and the cause was apparently bad disk blocks on the removable drive. I tested the drive and found some 17 bad blocks. (I had tested the drive when it was first received and it was OK.) I am tempted to assume that the power outages somehow caused the bad blocks to appear. My conjecture is that the Syquest based drives do not have a head park on power down/out, and the drive head skidded across the disk, damaging some blocks. Is this correct? Do the heads indeed _not_ auto-park on power loss for the Syquest drives? Or am I left with no explanation for the sudden appearance of the bad blocks? Inquiring minds want to know! Jim -- macak@lakesys.lakesys.com (James Macak) << All my own opinions. >>
wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu (William M. Bumgarner) (11/10/89)
It has to have auto-park on power-down or else you could never get the cartridges out. More likely, was when the power went out, the drive was writing information... or a power surge hit the head, causing a random write. b.bum
dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) (11/11/89)
In article <1301@lakesys.lakesys.com> macak@lakesys.UUCP (James Macak) writes: >A couple of additions I'd make: the Ehman-written docs are apparently for >their non-removable hard drives, as is their utilities disk. (Before I >realized this I had tried to install SCSI drivers from the Ehman disk with >very poor results.) > >The other docs I received were from Software Architects, as was the other disk >of utilities. Theirs is the SCSI installer to use, in my experience. > >Ehman did include an insert that claims they are working on their own docs for >the removable drive. Hmmm. Have you tested other installers, with other drivers? The reason I ask, is that I tested out a version of the Software Architects installer/driver a year or so ago, during the great "System 6.0 breaks third-party disk drivers" debacle. I was having some trouble with the driver for my Rodime-based hard disk; the vendor from whom I had purchased the drive provided me with a loaner-copy of the Software Architects driver. I liked the user-interface of the installer... it's quite flexible and effective. The disk-partitioning feature worked as advertised. However, after reformatting and restoring my files, I was struck by how SLOW the drive had become. Most operations seemed to require almost twice as long as before, and the drive seemed to spend more time chattering. I'm not certain why the slowdown occurred. My primary suspicion is that the Software Architects driver was doing relatively small data transfers... perhaps only one block at a time... and wasn't keeping up with the disk. It's also possible that the driver was using handshake transfers rather than blind transfers, and wasn't able to keep up with the disk at the 1:1 interleave suggested by the installer/formatter. A few weeks later, I received a 6.0-compatible installer directly from Rodime, and tried it out. It wasn't quite as fast as the original (OEM-vendor-specific) driver, but was _much_ faster than the Software Architects driver... so I've been using it ever since. I don't know whether the poor performance of the SA driver was specific to Rodime drives, whether it would appear on a Syquest-based drive, or whether the drivers have been updated or rewritten for better performance (I wouldn't be surprised... it has been over a year). I'd be very interested to see the results of a read/write/seek comparison (SCSI Evaluator, for example) between different Syquest-based drives, using different manufacturers' drivers. Has anybody run this sort of comparison? -- Dave Platt VOICE: (415) 493-8805 UUCP: ...!{ames,apple,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@uunet.uu.net USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303
Mark.Bryant@f54.n382.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mark Bryant) (11/11/89)
> About these 45M removable drives, what's their noise level > compared to say diskless SE (good), SE with internal HD (OK), > or SE with the old fan (very noisy like my CMS-60 jet engine)? I have a MicroNet, and it's more in the jet engine category.... -- Mark Bryant via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!382!54!Mark.Bryant INET: Mark.Bryant@f54.n382.z1.FIDONET.ORG
truesdel@ics.uci.edu (Scott Truesdell) (11/14/89)
jg2f+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jude Anand George) writes: >isr@rodan.acs.syr.edu ( ISR group account) writes: >> I have one of MicroNet's R45 models, (single removable). It's been about >[..] >> One interesting point I've noticed is that, if a cartridge is inserted when >> the Mac powers up, it will appear on the desktop or boot from it, but >> if a cartrdige is inserted after the Mac has powered up I have to run >> something that scans the SCSI bus for the MAc to recognize it. >> (The MicroNet S/W, SCSI DA, and Jasmine DriveWare all seem to do this) >> I don't know if this is common to all Syquests or just this one. >This is not true of Microtech or PLI drives. An INIT is provided that >polls the drive every second for insertions, similar to how the Mac ROMs >poll the floppy drive. Charles McConnathy, president of MicroNet, chose to not have an INIT for two reasons: (1) general INIT proliferation and attendant conflicts, and (2) the performance hit of polling the bus. If a cartridge is in during boot, its driver will install itself and recogize when fresh cartridges are inserted. Personally, I use Steinberg's "Mount 'Em" Fkey. Optionally, SCSI Tools or SCSI Probe cdevs will work also, but these are slower than Mount'Em. --scott -- Scott Truesdell
greg@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Gregory James) (11/15/89)
I bought a PLI Turbo 40 when the price first dropped to $1299(US). Since then, ownership has been a mixed bag. Like the fellow with the Mass Micro system, my Turbo 40 was very prone to overheating, and it had the annoying tendency to crash about once per month, requiring software repair. There has never been a hard crash. In June, this condition became unacceptable, so I had to ship it back to California. They took an unacceptably long time to repair it, and then goofed up the shipping back -twice- despite the fact that I told them specifically how to avoid problems (avoid UPS and put the proper customs documents on the outside). That aside, the drive now works -very- well, except that if you forget to turn it on before you boot your Mac, you have to re-boot, and the fact that it is noisy as Hell. As soon as I get a new desk I'm sticking this sucker in a drawer or something. I have also had experience with Ehman Engineering. I ordered a drive for a friend (I was the one with the MasterCard). They obeyed my instructions about UPS, and the drive arrived promptly. It formatted fine, and we found the documentation and software acceptable. Greg James greg@cpsc.ucalgary.ca
bordier@imag.imag.fr (Jerome Bordier) (12/05/89)
In article <10433@venera.isi.edu> jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) writes: > >What is the consensus of the price/perfromance ratio of the various >45MB removable syquest drives on the market? I noticed that Ehman >just dropped their price to $799. How is that? > And what about Cutting Edge 45MB removable hard drive ? ($995 MacWAREHOUSE price in November MacWorld). -- Jerome BORDIER Laboratoire de Structures Discretes et de Didactique IMAG B.P. 53 X 38041 GRENOBLE Cedex FRANCE E.Mail: INTERNET: bordier@imag.Fr UUCP: bordier@imag (uunet.uu.net!imag!bordier)
bordier@imag.imag.fr (Jerome Bordier) (12/05/89)
What is the price of cartridges ?
--
Jerome BORDIER Laboratoire de Structures Discretes et de Didactique
IMAG B.P. 53 X 38041 GRENOBLE Cedex FRANCE
E.Mail:
INTERNET: bordier@imag.Fr UUCP: bordier@imag (uunet.uu.net!imag!bordier)bj@gvgspd.GVG.TEK.COM (Brion Johnson) (12/07/89)
The cartridges go for about $100 US. I've had my drive for 3 months now and I like it. Brion