DSONNTAG@cc.utah.edu (David M. Sonntag, MSPH) (03/14/90)
X-NEWS: cc.utah.edu comp.sys.apple: 12579 Path: cc.utah.edu!dsonntag From: DSONNTAG@cc.utah.edu (David M. Sonntag, MSPH) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple Subject: Warranty? Torched SE/030 on 3/8/90=> A wormy apple Message-ID: <50550@cc.utah.edu> Date: 12 Mar 90 16:19:43 MDT Lines: 26 When I first heard rumours, sometime last fall, that Apple was going to extend their warranty from a meager 90-days, to a more appropriate 12 months, I happily filed the thought away. On March 8th, I wasn't so happy. In fact, I'm quite livid about Apple letting me fall through the cracks. On March 8th (!?! Planned obsolescence???), my SE/030 hung up and died. I bought it last year on April 28th, so the machine was only 10 months- old. Of course, Apple didn't make the new warranty retroactive to cover all those folks whose machines would still be under a 12 month warranty. And their "generous" offer of 12 months AppleCare for the price of 6 doesn't do me a damn bit of good, as no dealer worth his salt will sign you up for AppleCare for a machine that isn't working. So meanwhile, it looks like I get to eat the costs of a new motherboard. This whole thing really irks me, because I have been pushing quite hard as the new MIS manager to get our company president to take a look at the Mac. A typical situation of loving the machine, but hating the $^%&*@$ company. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Sonntag, MSPH International EnviroSearch CompuServe: 71341,1757 (801) 466-1035 Internet: DSONNTAG@CC.UTAH.EDU --------------------------------------------------------------------
dwb@archer.apple.com (David W. Berry) (03/21/90)
In article <50816@cc.utah.edu> DSONNTAG@cc.utah.edu (David M. Sonntag, MSPH) writes: >On March 8th (!?! Planned obsolescence???), my SE/030 hung up and died. >I bought it last year on April 28th, so the machine was only 10 months- >old. Of course, Apple didn't make the new warranty retroactive to >cover all those folks whose machines would still be under a 12 month >warranty. And their "generous" offer of 12 months AppleCare for the I probably shouldn't respond to this, but this complaint is already getting really old. Warranties get extended to longer periods fairly frequently. Chrysler went from a 4 year to a 5 year to a 7 year warranty, and offered no retrocative coverage or extended warranty. Ford recently went from 4 year coverage to 6 year coverage, with no retrocative coverage or extended warranty. There weren't any complaints about either, new buyers just thanked their lucky stars they got a longer warranty. Now Apple goes from a 3 month warranty to a 1 year warranty, offers some retroactive warranty and gives lot's of other folks a real break on an extended warranty and the crackpots come out of the woodwork complaining that the extended warranty wasn't applied to every machine Apple ever made. I guess I should just file this whole discussion under "Some people can't be satisfied" and forget it... David W. Berry A/UX Toolbox Engineer dwb@apple.com
mjkobb@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Michael J Kobb) (03/21/90)
In article <7306@goofy.Apple.COM> dwb@archer.apple.com (David W. Berry) writes: > I probably shouldn't respond to this, but this complaint is >already getting really old. Warranties get extended to longer periods >fairly frequently. Chrysler went from a 4 year to a 5 year to a >7 year warranty, and offered no retrocative coverage or extended >warranty. Ford recently went from 4 year coverage to 6 year coverage, >with no retrocative coverage or extended warranty. There weren't any >complaints about either, new buyers just thanked their lucky stars >they got a longer warranty. Now Apple goes from a 3 month warranty >to a 1 year warranty, offers some retroactive warranty and gives lot's >of other folks a real break on an extended warranty and the crackpots >come out of the woodwork complaining that the extended warranty >wasn't applied to every machine Apple ever made. I guess I should >just file this whole discussion under "Some people can't be satisfied" >and forget it... Okay, first of all, I'm not a crackpot, and I resent your implying that I am. Second: I feel that everybody who has complained about this issue is 100% justified. The fact that car buyers don't complain that the car companies are screwing them over as loudly as we do when the computer companies screw us over is not a valid excuse. Third: I am easily satisfied. I am 100% satisfied with every non-Apple peripheral I bought with my IIx. The shortest warranty there was 1 yr. The longest was 5. I am not, however, satisfied when Apple tells me that machines bought 8 days after my machine (which is still under warranty for about another day now) have a 1-year warranty, and mine doesn't! As I said before, it seems at least reasonable that machines that were still under warranty at the time the extension was announced would be included. More reasonable is that machines that were <1 yr old at the time would be covered. But, no. I guess Apple feels that their machines are such junk that they'd lose too much money fixing all of the additional ones that would be covered if they did that. Too bad, since I really like the machines. I wouldn't own a different personal computer. Three-and-a-half: You'll note that not too many people are complaining that they bought a IIx three months before the IIfx was announced, and they should be offered a free upgrade (although it would apply to me...). That's a product upgrade, with additional functionality, and most of us understand (with hardware) that that's how it goes. However, Apple has repaired what was a serious deficiency in their policies, and have done so by coming out with an all-new deficient policy. That is cause for complaint. Okay, my hands are tired. Enough. --Mike Disclaimer: I think that disclaimers are an incredibly sad statement about our society. Nonetheless, nothing that I say can or should be construed as having been said by anyone. Ever.
dwade@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Doug Wade) (03/21/90)
In article <50816@cc.utah.edu> DSONNTAG@cc.utah.edu (David M. Sonntag, MSPH) writes: > >When I first heard rumours, sometime last fall, that Apple was going to >extend their warranty from a meager 90-days, to a more appropriate 12 >months, I happily filed the thought away. On March 8th, I wasn't so >happy. In fact, I'm quite livid about Apple letting me fall through >the cracks. > Look, a lot of people gained something from the change and nobody lost anything. If you're jealous of someone else's good fortune, keep it to yourself. It's debatable if the way they went about doing it was correct (right thing, wrong way) but it was certaintly an improvement. You knew you only had a 90 day warantee. You knew AppleCare was available. And you blew it. Tough. Prehaps everyone that's slightly missed a free software upgrade should send you a note. Prehaps everyone that's missed a free upgrade because they didn't keep the receipt should as well. But I think you're too busy feeling sorry for yourself to listen. Now the dealer network, *that's* something to complain about. :-)
mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) (03/21/90)
In article <1945@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> mjkobb@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Michael J Kobb) writes: >In article <7306@goofy.Apple.COM> dwb@archer.apple.com (David W. Berry) writes: >> I probably shouldn't respond to this, but this complaint is >>already getting really old. [. . .] >> Now Apple goes from a 3 month warranty >>to a 1 year warranty, offers some retroactive warranty and gives lot's >>of other folks a real break on an extended warranty and the crackpots >>come out of the woodwork complaining that the extended warranty >>wasn't applied to every machine Apple ever made. I guess I should >>just file this whole discussion under "Some people can't be satisfied" >>and forget it... > >Okay, first of all, I'm not a crackpot, and I resent your implying that I am. Sorry, I have to agree with David Berry. You're acting like a crackpot... >Second: I feel that everybody who has complained about this issue is 100% >justified. The fact that car buyers don't complain that the car companies are >screwing them over as loudly as we do when the computer companies screw us >over is not a valid excuse. Why? You knew about the warranty situation when you bought your machine. If you wanted the longer warranty (which, apparently, you didn't), you could have paid for AppleCare. Now, in effect, Apple *lowers* the price of all their machines and simultaneously *forces* you to buy AppleCare. If the two actions were not coupled, would you have rushed out and bought the year's worth of AppleCare? I doubt it. Car prices drop whenever a new model is announced. Would you expect GM to mail you a partial refund if you bought a Fiero *eight days* before it was unexpectedly cancelled??? >Third: I am easily satisfied. I am 100% satisfied with every non-Apple >peripheral I bought with my IIx. The shortest warranty there was 1 yr. The >longest was 5. I am not, however, satisfied when Apple tells me that machines >bought 8 days after my machine (which is still under warranty for about >another day now) have a 1-year warranty, and mine doesn't! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Face it, if the company that makes your disk drive (or whatever) decided to lengthen their warranty, and make it retroactive to 8 days after you bought yours, you'd be mad a them too. What are you going to do when you discover that somebody else bought the same car you did at the same dealer, maybe even on the same day, and PAID LESS MONEY for it??? > As I said before, >it seems at least reasonable that machines that were still under warranty at >the time the extension was announced would be included. More reasonable is >that machines that were <1 yr old at the time would be covered. But, no. I >guess Apple feels that their machines are such junk that they'd lose too much >money fixing all of the additional ones that would be covered if they did >that. More likely the case that they'd lose too much money in the paperwork to administer the mass change. In any big organization, it costs $20-50 just to push one piece of paper (a purchase order, say) across all the necessary desks before it comes into force. At some point, N more weeks/days of warranty coverage doesn't mean much to the customer, even though updating and checking all the paperwork would cost Apple a bundle to administer. I think they were more than generous with their offer. >Three-and-a-half: You'll note that not too many people are complaining that >they bought a IIx three months before the IIfx was announced, and they should >be offered a free upgrade (although it would apply to me...). That's a >product upgrade, with additional functionality, and most of us understand ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >(with hardware) that that's how it goes. However, Apple has repaired what was >a serious deficiency in their policies, and have done so by coming out with an >all-new deficient policy. That is cause for complaint. But longer free service is clearly a product upgrade, too, as anybody that's owned some computer hardware for any length of time will tell you. Why should *that* kind of upgrade be treated any differently than a hardware upgrade? Face it. Apple used to have one policy wrt warranty (if I don't think I need a warranty, I don't have to pay for it). Now they have another. It will change the equation in terms of who will buy which systems from them as opposed to other vendors, and thus somebody at Apple thinks it will make their products more competitive, and hence make the company some more $$. But it is *not* a "deficient" policy being replaced by a "good" one. >Okay, my hands are tired. Enough. Mine too. Mart L. Molle Computer Systems Research Institute University of Toronto Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 (416)978-4928
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (03/22/90)
mjkobb@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Michael J Kobb) writes: > The fact that car buyers don't complain that the car companies are screwing > them over as loudly as we do when the computer companies screw us over is > not a valid excuse. [...] I am not [...] satisfied when Apple tells me > that machines bought 8 days after my machine [...] have a 1-year warranty, > and mine doesn't! Who's being screwed? Presumably when you bought your machine, you knew it had a 90-day warranty and satisfied yourself that it was worth the price you were paying for it. If you didn't think it was worth the price, factoring in all the intangables like length of the warranty period, you wouldn't have bought it, right? Has any of that changed? Your machine wasn't worth any less the day after Apple announced the longer warranty for new machines than it was the day before, was it? I guess you have a right to feel disapointed that you didn't get a longer warranty after-the-fact, but to feel that you're being screwed? Get real. -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu -OR- {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy "My karma ran over my dogma"
Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) (03/22/90)
In article <1990Mar21.014309.10015@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) says: >Sorry, I have to agree with David Berry. You're acting like a crackpot... Do you really think that ad hominum attacks, such as calling a person a crackpot or acting like a crackpot, really add to discussions? IMHO, if you have a point to make, make it. But leave the asides out. The rest of your article raises some valid points of discussion. BTW, I think all of the car analogies (that were not made in the posting by mart@csri) fail on a critical point. New car warranties and other changes typically come with the introduction of new models. Therefore, people may wait until the period when new car warranties and models change. Apple simply changed its policy (on all models, thank goodness), and buyers may not have understood that waiting a little longer may have given them greater functionality with their purchase (a longer warranty). Not all of us have access to inside Apple rumors even with all the nets, MacLeak, etc. Just some thoughts. Take them for what their worth :-) Scott D. Camp Q8N@PSUVM.PSU.EDU The Pennsylvania State University 305 Oswald Tower University Park, PA 16802 814-863-0121
philip@Kermit.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (03/22/90)
In article <1990Mar21.172828.20989@phri.nyu.edu>, roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: > mjkobb@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Michael J Kobb) writes: > > The fact that car buyers don't complain that the car companies are screwing > > them over as loudly as we do when the computer companies screw us over is > > not a valid excuse. [...] I am not [...] satisfied when Apple tells me > > that machines bought 8 days after my machine [...] have a 1-year warranty, > > and mine doesn't! > > Who's being screwed? ... Well, not me. I bought my Mac on 10 January, and the extra warranty was like having a nice big check arrive unexpectedly in the mail. Thanks Apple. Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
wa4fib@kd4nc.UUCP (Jack Brindle) (03/22/90)
> In article <7306@goofy.Apple.COM> dwb@archer.apple.com (David W. Berry) > writes: > > I probably shouldn't respond to this, but this complaint is > >already getting really old. Warranties get extended to longer periods > mjkobb@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Michael J Kobb) replies: > > Second: I feel that everybody who has complained about this issue is 100% > justified. The fact that car buyers don't complain that the car companies are > screwing them over as loudly as we do when the computer companies screw us > over is not a valid excuse. Come Now, Guys. Has anyone bought a SONY television lately? SONY is generally acknowledged as one of the best, if not THE best TV in the industry. But what does it come with for a warranty? 3 months labor, 1 year parts, 2 years on the CRT. ONLY THREE MONTHS OF PARTS AND LABOR! Apple now gives us a full year of both. Maybe Apple computers are better designed and made than SONY TVs. Why not bitch at SONY for having a poor warranty. They sell far more TV sets. Why continue to pick on Apple? They have given us what we want. Or do you just wish to continue griping? Perhaps it is time for a reality check. Jack Brindle, WA4FIB. - No connection to Apple other than a developer! - Yes, I just bought a SONY TV. If it lasts as long as my Mac 128 without troubles, I will be happy. I'm even still on the original clock battery. They said it might last a year. It has now lasted 6 years, 1 month. Who needs a warranty when it doesn't break?
mjkobb@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Michael J Kobb) (03/22/90)
In article <1990Mar21.014309.10015@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) writes: >> >>Okay, first of all, I'm not a crackpot, and I resent your implying that I am. > >Sorry, I have to agree with David Berry. You're acting like a crackpot... Obviously, I disagree. I won't hold name-calling against you, though. >>Second: I feel that everybody who has complained about this issue is 100% >>justified. The fact that car buyers don't complain that the car companies are >>screwing them over as loudly as we do when the computer companies screw us >>over is not a valid excuse. > >Why? You knew about the warranty situation when you bought your machine. >If you wanted the longer warranty (which, apparently, you didn't), you could >have paid for AppleCare. Now, in effect, Apple *lowers* the price of all You misunderstand me. Of course I knew the warranty situation. However, I also wanted a Macintosh much more than I wanted some other machine. Therefore, I chose the lesser of two evils: I purchased a machine with inadequate warranty. And no, I wasn't going to shell out the outrageous sum of money Apple wanted for AppleCare, because I couldn't afford it! I could barely afford the IIx at university discounts, and subsidizing Apple corporate greed with more of my money was not at all on my agenda. Now, then: It has been pointed out to me in email that Apple couldn't really have put all machines <1 year old under warranty, because some of them might have broken in the meantime, and been fixed by non-Apple shops, etc. etc. I'll concede this point. I think what it comes down to is this: Apple had an inadequate warranty, about which people justifiably complained. Now they have fixed it (to their credit and, I think, the benefit of their business). They should expect people who felt screwed over at only having a 90-day warranty to feel screwed over that they missed out on it. They deserve all the flames they get. They do, however, also deserve praise for listening to their customers (even if it was only in fear of losing them). SO, thanks, Apple, for upping your warranty. If you'd done it a bit sooner, I would have bought a bunch more stuff from you, but at least I'll feel okay about buying stuff from you in the future. Here ends my contribution to this flame war. I'm not going to respond to any more email or any more postings, because it's taking too much time. --Mike Disclaimer: I think that disclaimers are an incredibly sad statement about our society. Nonetheless, nothing that I say can or should be construed as having been said by anyone. Ever.
jmm@lsuc.on.ca (John Macdonald|John Macdonald|Toronto) (03/22/90)
In article <7306@goofy.Apple.COM> dwb@archer.apple.com (David W. Berry) writes: >In article <50816@cc.utah.edu> DSONNTAG@cc.utah.edu (David M. Sonntag, MSPH) writes: >>On March 8th (!?! Planned obsolescence???), my SE/030 hung up and died. >>I bought it last year on April 28th, so the machine was only 10 months- >>old. Of course, Apple didn't make the new warranty retroactive to >>cover all those folks whose machines would still be under a 12 month >>warranty. And their "generous" offer of 12 months AppleCare for the > I probably shouldn't respond to this, but this complaint is >already getting really old. Warranties get extended to longer periods >fairly frequently. Chrysler went from a 4 year to a 5 year to a >7 year warranty, and offered no retrocative coverage or extended >warranty. Ford recently went from 4 year coverage to 6 year coverage, >with no retrocative coverage or extended warranty. There weren't any >complaints about either, new buyers just thanked their lucky stars >they got a longer warranty. Now Apple goes from a 3 month warranty >to a 1 year warranty, offers some retroactive warranty and gives lot's >of other folks a real break on an extended warranty and the crackpots >come out of the woodwork complaining that the extended warranty >wasn't applied to every machine Apple ever made. I guess I should >just file this whole discussion under "Some people can't be satisfied" >and forget it... Well, generally I think that Apple has done reasonably well in this extended warranty offering, but your analogy is slightly flawed. There was no significant public complaint that Ford or Chrysler was offering an insufficiently long warrantee before they increased their warrantees - they were making marketing manoeuvres to attract customers with a new special bonus rather than addressed a visible shortcoming in their existing product. In addition, if you don't like the warrantee offered by Ford or Chysler, you can always look at products from GM or Toyota that have mostly the same capabilities - and no major difference in look and feel. Apple had a market of people who did not like its warrantee but liked the competitors product even less. When a long-standing problem is addressed for some, it is not surprising the those unaddressed will be annoyed. "Crackpots coming out of the woodwork" is an insensative and inflammitory way of expressing yourself. Of course, Apple could not have retroactively provided extended warrantee to all existing customers and did come up with a reasonable compromise. But people bought Mac's despite the insufficient (in their own viewpoint) warrantee because they believed that there is no comparable machine on the market with an adequate warrantee (and they quite possibly had to fight against claims that a MSDOS machine was "just as good". Such people can hardly be expected to be happy about just missing out on the extended warrantee no matter how neccessary it is for Apple to not lose their shirts on paperwork. (I am not among the group who missed out. My Mac+ is over three years old, and neither the floppy disk failure or the SC20 failure occurred during the one year warrantee period that Apple *Canada* has always provided. If I were among that group I would not be publically claiming that Apple had done anything wrong. I would not have been happy about missing the extension, but I would not feel that Apple had any obligation to have provided it to me. Of course, it is easy for me to say that I would have been sensible in such a circumstance when I don't actually have to live up to the claim.)
bparsia@eagle.wesleyan.edu (03/22/90)
In article <1951@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU>, mjkobb@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Michael J Kobb) writes: > In article <1990Mar21.014309.10015@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) writes: >>> >>>Okay, first of all, I'm not a crackpot, and I resent your implying that I am. >> >>Sorry, I have to agree with David Berry. You're acting like a crackpot... > > Obviously, I disagree. I won't hold name-calling against you, though. > >>>Second: I feel that everybody who has complained about this issue is 100% >>>justified. The fact that car buyers don't complain that the car companies are >>>screwing them over as loudly as we do when the computer companies screw us >>>over is not a valid excuse. >> >>Why? You knew about the warranty situation when you bought your machine. >>If you wanted the longer warranty (which, apparently, you didn't), you could >>have paid for AppleCare. Now, in effect, Apple *lowers* the price of all > > You misunderstand me. Of course I knew the warranty situation. However, I > also wanted a Macintosh much more than I wanted some other machine. > Therefore, I chose the lesser of two evils: I purchased a machine with > inadequate warranty. And no, I wasn't going to shell out the outrageous sum > of money Apple wanted for AppleCare, because I couldn't afford it! I could > barely afford the IIx at university discounts, and subsidizing Apple corporate > greed with more of my money was not at all on my agenda. > > Now, then: It has been pointed out to me in email that Apple couldn't really > have put all machines <1 year old under warranty, because some of them might > have broken in the meantime, and been fixed by non-Apple shops, etc. etc. > I'll concede this point. > > I think what it comes down to is this: Apple had an inadequate warranty, > about which people justifiably complained. Now they have fixed it (to their > credit and, I think, the benefit of their business). They should expect > people who felt screwed over at only having a 90-day warranty to feel screwed > over that they missed out on it. They deserve all the flames they get. They > do, however, also deserve praise for listening to their customers (even if it > was only in fear of losing them). SO, thanks, Apple, for upping your > warranty. If you'd done it a bit sooner, I would have bought a bunch more > stuff from you, but at least I'll feel okay about buying stuff from you in the > future. > > Here ends my contribution to this flame war. I'm not going to respond to any > more email or any more postings, because it's taking too much time. > > --Mike > > Disclaimer: I think that disclaimers are an incredibly sad statement about our > society. Nonetheless, nothing that I say can or should be construed as having > been said by anyone. Ever. A truely noble posting. You have proved your non-crackpotness and I, for one, thank you. Bijan J. Parsia
jimvons@ashtate (Jim von Schmacht) (03/23/90)
I'm sorry, but your warranty on this thread has expired....
--
Jim von Schmacht Senior Member, Project Test Staff Ashton Tate Corporation
Disclaimer: Standard Issue
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It isn't the years - it's the mileage" -Indiana Jones