vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) (07/25/90)
In article <2787@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> gdavis@primate.wisc.edu writes:
)From article <1412@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, by jgsmith@watson.bcm.tmc.edu (James G. Smith):
)>This is a plea for someone to come up with an input device for the off hand/
)>non mouse-using hand. I would suggest a dial or pair of dials. The immediate
)I think the inventor of the mouse, Doug Engelbart, did have an input device
)for the other hand. As I recall it was a simple five-fingered keyboard.
)I'm not sure what the keys did.
)Gary Davis
Others have mentioned chord keyboards, some pointing back to
Xerox and PARC as the source.
I seem to recall that the military was experimenting with chord
keyboards back in the '50s as a fast means of input. And, not surprisingly,
they were faster than QWERTY keyboards. Them proved to be a fast and
accurate means of input, but lost out for the same reason that Dvorak
keyboards aren't all over the place: inertia.
I remember when I first read about these things that I thought
that they would be great for color painting. Give me a chord-mouse
(or chord-stylus, or glove, with the right drivers), a color workstation
and a little practice and I'd have a blast. Hand one to someone who can
paint and stand back...
I now suspect that you would have to watch the design *very*
carefully to avoid creating a situation that would really encourage
carpal tunnel syndrome and other ergonomic nasties. I also suspect
that it could be done fairly easily. (And, come to think of it,
a chord pointer would make some games incredible...)
And, last, with ADB it shouldn't be *that* hard to at least
build a prototype. Talk about the need for a consistant user interface...
--
Later Y'all, Vnend Ignorance is the mother of adventure.
Mail? Send to:vnend@phoenix.princeton.edu or vnend@pucc.bitnet
Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!) at vnend@ms.uky.edu
In Fort Madison, Iowa, the fire department must practise for fifteen minutes before going to extinguish a fire.forbes@sp11.csrd.uiuc.edu (Michael Scott Forbes) (07/26/90)
vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) writes: > I seem to recall that the military was experimenting with chord >keyboards back in the '50s as a fast means of input. And, not surprisingly, >they were faster than QWERTY keyboards. Them proved to be a fast and >accurate means of input, but lost out for the same reason that Dvorak >keyboards aren't all over the place: inertia. One of the psychology classes I took here at the University of Illinois (the title was "Human Factors in Human-Machine Systems") talked about QWERTY, DVORAK and chord keyboards, and how experiments and tests had demonstrated the chord keyboards to be much faster than the other two, and subject to fewer typing errors as well. This information was part of a textbook example (literally) of why a new, better way of doing something doesn't always catch on. Mr. James' point about inertia is well taken. The short term cost-to-benefit ratio is too high for any major employer of typists to consider changing over. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Forbes University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign forbes@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu Center for Supercomputing Research & Development Disclaimer: This job doesn't pay much, but it does wonders for my .signature
KOFOID@cc.utah.edu (07/26/90)
Chord keyboards are just find -- as long as you have 5 functional fingers on each of two hands. Standard keyboards make computers, tty's and typewriters accessible to a much larger audience, including those with missing fingers, arthritis, and diseases affecting muscle coordination or strength. Speed for perfect humans is not always the best criterion for designing a product. Cheers, Eric. __________________________________________________________________ | (801) 581-3592 | | Snail: Eric Kofoid; Dept. Biology, U. of Utah; SLC, UT 84112 | | Fast: bi.kofoid%science@utahcca (BitNet) | | Faster: bi.kofoid@science.utah.edu (InterNet) | |Fastest: kofoid@bioscience.utah.edu (InterNet -> QuickMail) | | | | -- The University of Utah is blameless for anything I've said -- | |__________________________________________________________________|
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (07/27/90)
On the subject of chording... In article <1396@idunno.Princeton.EDU> vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) writes: > I now suspect that you would have to watch the design *very* > carefully to avoid creating a situation that would really encourage > carpal tunnel syndrome and other ergonomic nasties. Too right! And I'm the wrong person to pontificate, since I know nothing of the mechanics of the human hand and arm. But... everyone keeps saying "keyboard" - I wonder if the best design wouldn't be something you'd hold in a loosely curled fist, instead of something that sits on your desk. For a first try: take the handle off a joystick that's been well-shaped to fit comfortably in the hand. Add buttons under the four fingers. Make sure that all buttons, including the thumb's, are easy to click and have a short throw. Run a light wire, like a mouse cable, out the bottom. Now you can chord with your hand lying relaxed in your lap. Am I crazy? Or is it a good idea? Ignorant minds (mine!) want to know. :-) ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 77-A | not necessarily represent those of my Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."
jay@argosy.UUCP (Jay O'Conor) (07/27/90)
In article <9440@goofy.Apple.COM> rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: ... stuff deleted about chord keyboards and carpel tunnel syndrome ... >Too right! And I'm the wrong person to pontificate, since I know nothing >of the mechanics of the human hand and arm. But... everyone keeps saying >"keyboard" - I wonder if the best design wouldn't be something you'd hold >in a loosely curled fist, instead of something that sits on your desk. For >a first try: take the handle off a joystick that's been well-shaped to fit >comfortably in the hand. Add buttons under the four fingers. Make sure >that all buttons, including the thumb's, are easy to click and have a >short throw. Run a light wire, like a mouse cable, out the bottom. Now you >can chord with your hand lying relaxed in your lap. > >Am I crazy? Or is it a good idea? Ignorant minds (mine!) want to know. :-) > >========================================================================== >Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh >Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com >Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do >20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 77-A | not necessarily represent those of my >Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc." There was something like this in BYTE magazine many MANY years ago. It was a hemispherical shape with one button for each finger and (I think) three buttons for the thumb. You press the proper combination of finger buttons, then one of the thumb buttons to actually transmit the character from the device. Hmmm... this only gives you 48 characters... I must be remembering something wrong. Anyone out there remember this issue? It was the cover article - I do remember seeing the device on the cover. I might be mistaken about the magazine - it might have been Interface Age (how many of you remember _that_ magazine?). Jay O'Conor jay@maspar.com
RCW101@psuvm.psu.edu (The Fiend) (07/30/90)
I once saw a very interesting input device, not sure what it was called,
connected to a Silicon-Graphics workstation. This device has a ball, about the
size of a baseball, which could be moved around on a stick (kind of like a
joystick), plus it had two rows of (I think) 5 buttons in front of it. It's
profile looked something like this:
_ .._ (the .. is the button panel)
___ |_| /
/ \_|_/
Does anyone know what this is called or anything else about it? I was just
walking through the office when I saw it.
/--------------------------\/---------------------------\/--------------------\
| Student Consultant, || --------The Fiend-------- || There is a big |
| PSU CAC Student Support || ----Ronald C. Woodley---- || difference between |
| Senior Consultant, || RCW101@PSUVM.BITNET || those who play in |
| Phoenix Enterprises || RCW101%PSUVM@PSUVAX1.uucp || the dark and those |
| President, || rcw@chopin.psu.edu || who live there. |
| Fiend Productions, Ltd. || rcw@psusun01.psu.edu || |
\--------------------------/\---------------------------/\--------------------/tonyrich@titanic.cs.wisc.edu (Anthony Rich) (07/30/90)
In article <1990Jul26.024139.11905@csrd.uiuc.edu> forbes@sp11.csrd.uiuc.edu (Michael Scott Forbes) writes: > [A human factors textbook...] talked about QWERTY, DVORAK and chord > keyboards, and how experiments and tests had demonstrated the chord > keyboards to be much faster than the other two and subject to fewer > typing errors as well. This information was part of a textbook example > (literally) of why a new, better way of doing something doesn't always > catch on. Yes, it's yet another example of how standardizing on immature technology prevents progress later when technology improves and we're much smarter. It's the same story with TV broadcast signal (NTSC) standards, the ordinary telephone's horrible user interface (do YOU dare ignore your ringing phone? Who's in control, you or the phone?), etc. I think an unsung accomplishment of the Mac was that it finally weaned us from the awful IBM 80-column punch-card standard that determined most video screen widths! (Well, almost. I'm typing this in an 80-column X window on a 19" DEC monitor. And what are *you* reading it on? :^) Anyway, about chord keyboards: Court reporters take copious notes in court on two-handed chord keyboards. Those keyboards certainly must be efficient data-entry devices. (Are there any past or present court reporters out there who would care to tell us about how they work and why they're so efficient?) It sounds like this entire topic is basically about whether it would be useful to move what are now modifier keys (control, option, command) or extra mouse buttons (on non-Mac systems) to a separate keyboard of their own. Of course that's possible, but I'm having a hard time seeing how or why that improves the user interface. Few Mac users like remembering those obscure modifier key combinations because key combinations are actually an invisible "command-line" interface. Chords are only more efficient than other ways of accomplishing the same thing if you can recall them instantly. You lose BIG every time you have to look one up in an online or offline manual, so they introduce a learning curve inefficiency that's based on 1) How fast you can memorize the chords, 2) How many chords there are, and 3) How many different meanings the same chord has (in different programs, for example). Another factor in recall speed (after they're "learned") is how frequently you USE the chords (and your Mac, for that matter). Take a long summer vacation, and whoops! Let's see, was that command-click or option-click? It doesn't seem likely to me that putting those or similar keys elsewhere and giving them even *more* meanings will make them any more attractive to learn. Or am I missing something obvious? (A brain, for example? :^) On the other hand (pun intended), you can simply hook up a MIDI keyboard to your Mac and do all the chording you want, offhand. (Organ-ize your Mac! :^) -- Tony -- ----------------------------------------- | EMAIL: tonyrich@titanic.cs.wisc.edu | | Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. | -----------------------------------------
pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) (07/31/90)
In article <90210.161608RCW101@psuvm.psu.edu> RCW101@psuvm.psu.edu (The Fiend) writes: > I once saw a very interesting input device, not sure what it was called, > connected to a Silicon-Graphics workstation. This device has a ball, about the > size of a baseball, which could be moved around on a stick (kind of like a > joystick), plus it had two rows of (I think) 5 buttons in front of it. It's called a Spaceball, which is probably somebody's trademark. The idea is that the ball can be pushed in all 6 orthogonal directions or twisted around I don't remember how many axes. I have played with one, but I was not all that impressed. It's a binary first-derivative device, so one has to push or twist and wait for the object to move around in its own good time. I found this frustrating. Personally, I far prefer a mouse and the virtual trackball algorithm by Michael Chen et. al. With spring-loaded constraints to rotate around the object's and the viewer's major axes and a trackball with inertia, it is almost obscenely pleasant to use. In re. chord keyboards, some years ago there was a hemispherical device that had four buttons for the fingers and eight buttons for the thumb. The four buttons would be played as a chord to determine the bottom four bits of the ASCII code, and one of the eight buttons would be pressed to determine the top three bits. At the time, the price was considerably less than the average price of a QWERTY keyboard, so maybe they sold a few. A long time ago, I played around with a chord-entering system for hexadecimal data using the four fingers of each hand on a TRS-80 Model 1. Eric Pepke INTERNET: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions. Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
ssimmons@unix.cie.rpi.edu (Stephen Simmons) (07/31/90)
In article <10911@spool.cs.wisc.edu> tonyrich@titanic.cs.wisc.edu (Anthony Rich) writes: >Anyway, about chord keyboards: > >Chords are only more efficient than other ways of accomplishing the same >thing if you can recall them instantly. You lose BIG every time you have >to look one up in an online or offline manual, so they introduce a learning >curve inefficiency that's based on > > 1) How fast you can memorize the chords, > 2) How many chords there are, and > 3) How many different meanings the same chord has (in different > programs, for example). Another important factor is what kind of chord keyboard; court reporters use them for text entry; some people here seem to want to place the modifier keys on them. As to #3, you need, basically two standards: one for modifer keys and one for text entry. And you would need some kind of mode chord to switch between the two. As to #2, in the modifier mode, the answer is clear: one key for each modifier and chords are common-sense combinations of these modifier keys. But there is a more serious problem with the text entry mode. With five keys, we are limited to 32 chords. It's still possible to fit the entire ASCII set into this small set by using mode-chords (like shift-lock or caps-lock, etc.) and chord sequences. However, this type of encoding slows the chordist down which defeats the purpose. Another possibility is a sixth button on the keyboard (how about the base of the palm) which would immediately double the number of chords available. Another consideration that chord designers need to look at is this: are they designing a chord keyboard for primary entry (i.e. two hands) or to use in conjunction with a mouse? Or both? Could we have a two-handed chord device with wheels on the bottom -- that is could we combine a keyboard with a mouse? :) Could we have a two-handed chord device that could be easily switched into yet another mode that allowed the above one-handed entry? Yes, I know that the above sounds complicated. I know that the average user would not want such a device (because you have to learn 80 or so chords before you can do text entry). >Another factor in recall speed (after they're "learned") is how frequently >you USE the chords (and your Mac, for that matter). Take a long summer >vacation, and whoops! Let's see, was that command-click or option-click? More importantly, how much speed do you gain by having the modifier keys readily available? Average user=.001%, power user < 2%? This capability seems worth paying for only as an added (i.e. free) feature of a chord keyboard designed for text entry. The real problem is, that the device will only be commercially developed if there are enough people interested in it. Quite a number of people seem to have some interest in it here. Anybody want to take a net poll? Something like "how much would you pay for such a device?" Anybody want to volunteer to be the pollster? (i.e., a manufacturer...) -- Stephen Simmons
tag@symbas.UUCP (Arne Gisvold) (07/31/90)
rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: >On the subject of chording... >In article <1396@idunno.Princeton.EDU> vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. >James) writes: >> I now suspect that you would have to watch the design *very* >> carefully to avoid creating a situation that would really encourage >> carpal tunnel syndrome and other ergonomic nasties. >Too right! And I'm the wrong person to pontificate, since I know nothing >of the mechanics of the human hand and arm. But... everyone keeps saying >"keyboard" - I wonder if the best design wouldn't be something you'd hold >in a loosely curled fist, instead of something that sits on your desk. For >a first try: take the handle off a joystick that's been well-shaped to fit >comfortably in the hand. Add buttons under the four fingers. Make sure >that all buttons, including the thumb's, are easy to click and have a >short throw. Run a light wire, like a mouse cable, out the bottom. Now you >can chord with your hand lying relaxed in your lap. >Am I crazy? Or is it a good idea? Ignorant minds (mine!) want to know. :-) Well - you are actually describing the Microwriter keyboard from a company called microwriter Plc. (!?) in England. They make this in severeal forms, one as a very small pocket organizer, and it can be interfaced to the macintosh, and used instead of the Macintosh keyboard. Regards Tor-Arne -- ! Tor-Arne Gisvold - Symbiotic Computer Systems A/S ! adress : Sandgt. 2 , N7001 Trondheim, Norway ! UUCP : ...mcsun!nuug!symbas.UUCP!tag or tag@symbas.uucp ! phone: +47-7-515544 FAX : +47-7-532027 -- ! Tor-Arne Gisvold - Symbiotic Computer Systems A/S ! adress : Sandgt. 2 , N7001 Trondheim, Norway ! UUCP : ...mcsun!nuug!symbas.UUCP!tag or tag@symbas.uucp ! phone: +47-7-515544 FAX : +47-7-532027
tag@symbas.UUCP (Arne Gisvold) (07/31/90)
>There was something like this in BYTE magazine many MANY years ago. It >was a hemispherical shape with one button for each finger and (I think) >three buttons for the thumb. You press the proper combination of finger >buttons, then one of the thumb buttons to actually transmit the >character from the device. >Hmmm... this only gives you 48 characters... I must be remembering >something wrong. Anyone out there remember this issue? It was the >cover article - I do remember seeing the device on the cover. I might >be mistaken about the magazine - it might have been Interface Age (how >many of you remember _that_ magazine?). Microwriter keyboard - Microwriter Systems Plc. Mitcham, Surrey, England - I've got one. Regards Tor-Arne -- ! Tor-Arne Gisvold - Symbiotic Computer Systems A/S ! adress : Sandgt. 2 , N7001 Trondheim, Norway ! UUCP : ...mcsun!nuug!symbas.UUCP!tag or tag@symbas.uucp ! phone: +47-7-515544 FAX : +47-7-532027 -- ! Tor-Arne Gisvold - Symbiotic Computer Systems A/S ! adress : Sandgt. 2 , N7001 Trondheim, Norway ! UUCP : ...mcsun!nuug!symbas.UUCP!tag or tag@symbas.uucp ! phone: +47-7-515544 FAX : +47-7-532027