qureshi@ocf.berkeley.edu (Mohammad Qureshi) (08/18/90)
About week ago I posted an article asking the following questions:
1) Should I buy an apple 40 meg HD or a third party HD? If yes on the
third party drive, which brand/manufacturer.
2) Should I get an external or internal HD?
3) How much RAM shoud I purchase?
4) Should I buy an apple keyboard or third party (and which one)?
5) Are there any more price drops expected soon? I can wait about two to three weeks to -
get a Mac, should I wait longer and how much longer?
The following is a compilation of the mail I received on the subject.
Please quit now if you are not interested.
Thank you to everyone who replied.
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From delaney@XN.LL.MIT.EDU Fri Aug 10 12:19:20 1990
Whatever you do, DON'T buy memory from Apple. They'll
be charging you four times what the stuff is worth.
Order from Chip Merchant, or MacConnection, or any of
those major mail-order places. You'll probably be able
to find memory at $50/meg.
Same goes for hard drives, but that's not as screamingly
bad. Internal are always nicer; they turn on automatically.
The apple keyboards are fine. The extended is nice.
Any more questions, you're welcome to write...
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From grobbins@nssdcs.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Aug 10 15:02:42 1990
> 1) Should I buy an apple 40 meg HD or a third party HD? If yes on the
> third party drive, which brand/manufacturer.
The best buys are 100Mb or larger drives. You can get them for 600/700
from the mail order suppliers APS and Third Wave.
You'll quickly fill a 40 Mb drive once system 7 comes out.
If the price of an included internal drive is comparable to what a
third party drive would cost, get the Apple drive.
> 2) Should I get an external or internal HD?
External is generally better. Buy internal if
- saving $100 is very important, or
- portability of the entire machine is very important, and
- you don't mind installing the drive
> 3) How much RAM shoud I purchase?
1 meg with the machine. But 4 or 8 additional megabytes from Chip
Merchant, Technology Works, Delta, or some other mail order supplier.
> 4) Should I buy an apple keyboard or third party (and which one)?
Apple's have the best quality and feel. Most third party keyboards have subtle
compatibility problems. Ehmans are the least trouble and are the cheapest,
but they also aren't the best quality.
> 5) Are there any more price drops expected soon? I can wait about two to three weeks to
get a Mac, should I wait longer and how much longer?
Several new cheap Macs are coming out this fall. Watch the net or MacWeek
for rumors.
From johnim@euler.Berkeley.EDU Fri Aug 10 20:24:00 1990
Well, let's see if I can help you out. I just bought a IIcx a couple of months
ago. Of course, after I buy it, I learn that the price will be reduced in a
few months. I guess it really doesn't matter, since I really need the computer
for this semester, but it would have been nice to get a ci for the same amount
of money.
Anyway, I just want to start off by saying that the following may or may not
be the best option for you. I really don't know what you want to use the mac
for, nor what your preferences are in terms of reliability/big name/etc vs.
price.
1) I bought almost EVERYTHING through mail-order from 3rd party dealers. I
ended up saving over $500 on the system (maybe more, depending on how you figure
out the calculations. Remember that although some things from Apple are priced
ridiculously high, that's only if you get them separately. The price for a
combination system, such as 4meg RAM/80meg HD, is still high, but not as much as
if you buy them separately from Apple).
As for a hard drive, I got an 80meg Quantum internal from APS. This is the
SAME drive mechanism that Apple uses for their 80meg drives, but is 7ms faster
(64k cache) and has a 2 year warranty. It also came with over 12meg of various
freeware/shareware programs. Their partitioning program is better than Apple's,
although if you really want to partition your drive, I would recommend buying
La Cie's Silverlining ($99). I haven't used it myself, but have read very good
recommendations for it.
2) If you want to save money, get an internal drive. You'll have to pay
someone to install it (unless you don't mind voiding Apple's warranty, or unless
you get a IIx,cx,ci,fx), but the installation charge won't be as much as the
price difference between an internal and external drive. An external drive is
convenient to have, since you can take it and hook it up to a friend's mac to
transfer program. They generally are able to withstand more shock than an
internal, although you really shouldn't go around testing this :-) My personal
opinion is that if you want to really get your money's worth with an external
drive, you should spend some money and get one that's been well designed. What
I mean is that with an external, you have to worry about SCSI termination, fan,
ventillation, SCSI ID selection (good ones have a switch/button in back of the
drive, while others require software or don't allow you to change the ID#),
possibly shielding, protection from shocks/drops, etc. Basically, in this case,
I would spend some money and go with something like La Cie's Tsunami or an
UltraDrive from GCC. Take a look at MacWorld's June and Sept issues for reviews
of external drives.
As far as the size goes, get the largest that your budget allows. You wouldn't
believe how fast you can fill one up.
3) I would suggest getting at least 4 megs more memory. If you want to do any
serious work, you need MultiFinder. To use MultiFinder effectively, you need
more than 1meg RAM. DO NOT buy the SIMMS from Apple. They charge absolutely
reidiculous prices for them. I believe the current rate for 1meg, 80ns SIMMS
is $50, and they are dropping all the time. I paid $64/each for mine about
a month ago. If you're worried about you finances, get 4 1meg SIMMS now, which
will give you 5meg total RAM. Then, when you have more money, you can get more,
or even get 4meg SIMMS. Remember that for an SE/30, you need to install them
in groups of four.
4) I bought my keyboard from Ehman for $99. It sure beats the Scholar's
Workstation's price for an Apple ext keyboard by a long shot. It has basically
the same layout, although a couple of things are different. First of all, the
RETURN key is larger, like an IBM keyboard. Take a look at the IBM keyboards
at the Workstation. The Ehman keyboard has the same type of layout and "feel".
I found the "loud" clicking of the keys a bit bothersome, but I got used to it
after a week. You can order one and try it out for 30 days. If you don't like
it, just send it back and they'll refund your money. I personally feel that
Apple's keyboard is a better quality keyboard, but not enough the justify the
price difference.
5) As I mentioned above, Apple is suppose to lower its prices for the cx/ci
sometime before Christmas. Don't quote me on this, but that's what I've heard
from many other people. I don't know if the SE/30 price will also be lowered.
If you can't wait that long, just buy it now.
Sorry this is so long, but I was trying to be thorough. If you need any other
info or want me to clarify on something I wrote, just let me know.
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From KMILLER@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu Sat Aug 11 10:17:18 1990
In reply to your letter:
I am preparing to buy aMacintosh in the very near future. However I have some
questions. I have enough to buy an SE/30.
1) Should I buy an apple 40 meg HD or a third party HD? If yes on the
third party drive, which brand/manufacturer.
Since you are mailing from an .edu site, I'll assume you
are getting the educational discount.
Buy the apple 40 Meg. If you compare the two prices,
with and without, you'll find that with the HD (at least
here at OU) costs only about $280 more. You can't beat
that for a Quantum 40 Meg drive.
2) Should I get an external or internal HD?
The only reason to get an external HD would be if you
carry it back and forth a lot between two places. For most
purposes, I find that floppies are sufficient enough
for that, and if I need to take the HD, it's usually
not very much trouble just to pack the whole machine
along.
3) How much RAM shoud I purchase?
Just buy the 1 meg SE/30 and buy 4megs from somewhere
like Chip Merchant (There ads are in the back of the Mac
magazines) if you know someone who can install them. If
you don't, it's not to big a trick to do yourself.
4) Should I buy an apple keyboard or third party (and which one)?
This is a tougher call than the others. I don't find that
I use the function keys all that much. If you're really
squeaking for money, buy the standard keyboard ($88 at
our computer store) and use the $60 bucks or so toward
that extra memory. If you aren't really squeaking,
buy the Apple Extended from your computer store ($155 here)
because it is a thousand times better than any of the
third-party keyboards I have tried and only costs about
$30 more. The new extended keyboard is supposed to be
really nice, although I haven't used one.
5) Are there any more price drops expected soon? I can wait about
two to three weeks to get a Mac, should I wait longer and how much longer?
If you really, really can wait, you might wait. I think due
to the new macs coming out in about October, there probably
will be another massive price cut similar to what there was
in June. If you can't wait, console yourself with the fact
that the new low end machine probably wont be a 68030, and
go ahead and enjoy your SE/30.
Hope this helped you. I responded because I've been
researching this myself for a few months, and also
because I absolutely hate it when I post a message
and get no replies. If you have more questions, feel
free to email me back.
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From zook@msc2.TN.CORNELL.EDU Mon Aug 13 09:26:55 1990
I saw in comp.sys.mac.hardware you request for information on buying
a Mac. I have used them for about 6 years and have bought a few
(upgrading, of course).
About hard disks. The only reason I would buy an Apple HD is if I
could get the educational discount. This brings their prices down to
level of the third-party competition. In general, you should consider
the price, reliability, warranty, service, and software as you shop
around. Apple only has a 1-year warranty, whereas many manufacturers
have longer warranties. And some have more incentive for good customer
service than a large company like Apple. I purchased a 40 MB external
HD from GCC Technologies (they are in Massachusetts. I do not have
their address handy, but they advertise in MacUser) for my MacPlus.
They had a 2-year warranty, were cheaper than Apple, had *great*
software (including 4 MB of public domain stuff as well as SUM II, the
outstanding disk utility package), and were pleasant to talk to on the
phone. Since then, I have upgraded to a MacIIcx, and I purchased an
internal 45 MB drive from GCC for the same reasons.
Should you buy an internal or external HD? There are advantages and
disadvantages to both. If an external HD has trouble, you can send it
in for repair and still have your computer to use; if an internal one
dies, you may have to send the whole computer in (especially with an
SE/30, in which is more difficult to install/remove RAM and HDs than
with a modular series computer like the MacIIcx). But internal disks do
not take up any more room. I actually like an external disk with the
compact Macs (Plus and SE). You can get drives that fit underneath the
compact computers (so-called zero footprint), which is what I had with
my MacPlus. It has the added advantage of raising the level of the
screen to a height that is easy to work with.
What about RAM? If you want to use Multifinder or System 7.0, you
simply must have at least 2 MB, preferrably more. If you do not want to
(ever) use these, and the program you use are not big memory hogs (check
them out!), you can get by with 1 MB.
The standard Apple keyboard is sufficient for everything I ever do.
The added function keys on the extended keyboard are not needed (in
fact, many programs ignore them). The control key on the standard
keyboard is nice if you use communications programs; it is not included
on the MacPlus keyboard. I have only once had trouble with a Mac
keyboard on any of the Macs I have used - one keyswitch went bad and had
to be replaced.
Prices? Your guess is as good as mine.
Have fun shopping!
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From: "John R. Delaney" <delaney@XN.LL.MIT.EDU>
WRT hard disks, see this month's issue of Macworld for a review of 40MB
internal hard disks, including Apple's. They also hard an article a few
months back, I think 1-2, in which they addressed the question of how much
memory would be good to have, etc. I believe the title of the article
included the word "upgrade" or "upgrading" in it. Sorry not to be more
specific, by I keep them at home.
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From ez000453@deneb.ucdavis.edu Fri Aug 10 12:59:44 1990
To quickly answer your questions:
1. 3rd Party Drive Anyday! My favorite at present is the SyQuest 45. At $619 they're the best
investment.
2. External
3. 4 Mb should tide you for a while
4. 3rd Party Keyboards are poor quality
5. There will always be price drops.
My recommendations are general. You may not need 4 Mb RAM.
COLIN ONG
cgong@ucdavis.edu
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From truel@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu Fri Aug 10 14:40:24 1990
These are just my humble opinions, of course; take them at your own risk.
> 1) Should I buy an apple 40 meg HD or a third party HD? If yes on the
> third party drive, which brand/manufacturer.
Buy your hard drive from a third party. You will get it cheaper, and
with a much better warranty. Beware that warranties are only as good
as long as the company is in business. I recommond a quantum
mechanism and as for size you should keep some things in mind: You
never have enough. Consider an 80 MB. You may not need that much
right away, and by the time you do, you may be able to get a new drive
for a lot less money. The $/MB ration goes down as price goes up.
> 2) Should I get an external or internal HD?
If you are getting a compact mac, I see no reason to get an external
drive. Why would you want an extra power cord and box to clutter up
your desk. However at this point, I should point out that it may not
be best to get a compact mac. The IIcx is priced very close to the
SE/30, and gives you a bunch of upgrade paths. If you want color, you
can get it, any screen you get will be bigger than the SE/30, 3rd
party monochrome big screens are cheep now, they are apparently
lowering its price in order to phase it out (it is almost identical to
the SE/30 "inside" so I wouldn't worry about being unsupported,
besides you can always upgrade logic boards).
> 3) How much RAM shoud I purchase?
I would get at least 4MB, but don't get it from apple. The price of
SIMMs is ~$51/MB. Get your machine with 1MB, and upgrade it yourself.
> 4) Should I buy an apple keyboard or third party (and which one)?
I got a datadesk 101 keyboard for my mac II. I wouldn't do it again.
I am not unhappy with it, but it doesn't seem that much better. And
if I try to sell it, it won't look as good. If you are academic, and
are getting academic prices for Apple stuff, get their extended keyboard.
> 5) Are there any more price drops expected soon? I can wait
> about two to three weeks to get a Mac, should I wait longer and how
> much longer?
I don't know if there will be or not. It is safest always to wait.
Especially if you will not be needing your mac, and using it
effectively. I have heard a horror story about a person who got their
mac as they left for a 2 month hiatus. Then he came back and started
using it heavy duty, and it died. His warranty was up before he had a
chance to test it out thouroughly. Of course there is a 12 month
warranty now, but still, wait if you can. Prices on monitors, memory,
and hard drives may come down as well. And like I said, consider the
expandable macs. The IIcx might have the display card included (I
can't remember which does) in which case it would be cheaper. Also
the IIci is supposed to be coming down in price to fill the IIcx's
position.
Well that's my $.02
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From mosemann@hoss.unl.edu Fri Aug 10 18:59:15 1990
In comp.sys.mac.hardware you write:
>I am preparing to buy aMacintosh in the very near future. However I have some
>questions. I have enough to buy an SE/30.
> 1) Should I buy an apple 40 meg HD or a third party HD? If yes on the
> third party drive, which brand/manufacturer.
> 2) Should I get an external or internal HD?
> 3) How much RAM shoud I purchase?
> 4) Should I buy an apple keyboard or third party (and which one)?
> 5) Are there any more price drops expected soon? I can wait about two to three weeks to
get a Mac, should I wait longer and how much longer?
This is my suggestion. It's free and worth every penny. Buy an
internal Quantum Pro 80 meg drive from APS (listed in the back of MacWeek)
buy 4 more meg of RAM (also from the back of MacWeek) to give you a total
of 5, and buy another keyboard. The one from Ehman is about $100, has a
nice click to the keys and comes with a 1-year warranty.
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From jcocon@cs.clemson.edu Sat Aug 11 00:07:00 1990
> I am preparing to buy aMacintosh in the very near future. However I have some
> questions. I have enough to buy an SE/30.
A good machine from what I've seen!
> 1) Should I buy an apple 40 meg HD or a third party HD? If yes on the
> third party drive, which brand/manufacturer.
DON'T BUY AN APPLE DRIVE. MicroTech sells the same drives with a FIVE YEAR
WARRANTEE! And their service is very good. Their prices are a little higher
than other mail order houses which have only two year warrantees.
> 2) Should I get an external or internal HD?
I like internal hard disks - about $100 cheaper (most of which is eaten up
if you have an Apple rep install it once and remove it once for service, but
I do the operation myself, so I can keep the money).
They also make the machine easier to lug around.
Externals have the advantage of being "plug and play" and the fact that you
can easily hook them up to another machine should yours go down. Internals
make you Mac more fragile, but the quantum mechanisms used by Apple and Micro-
Tech are pretty tough.
> 3) How much RAM shoud I purchase?
Get the minimum amount of RAM you can and then upgrade to 5Meg through a
third party. If you buy a third party drive and memory you can get them
installed at the same time and avoid a service charge. Apple charges HIGH
prices for their simms.
> 4) Should I buy an apple keyboard or third party (and which one)?
I like my apple keyboard, but then, I like all of my stuff to look like it
belongs together.
> 5) Are there any more price drops expected soon? I can wait about two to three weeks to
get a Mac, should I wait longer and how much longer?
Prices always drop, (except with apple, and then they USUALLY drop :). The
low cost machines will be coming out in October, I think. I decided that
the time I got to play with my machine was worth the 5% savings of waiting a
few weeks.
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From pmiach@ecr.mu.oz.au Sat Aug 11 02:53:27 1990
This is just an aside. Today I was in attendance when a HIGH member of
Apple Aust was giving a talk. The main area of intrest to you is that there
will be some MAJOR announcements on Oct 15. He said taht the media Hype would
be the same as it was in 1984 (when the mac was released). The annoncement
may change you mind as to buying a SE 30 :-) ....
Paul Miach
pmiach@ecr.mu.oz.au
{UUCP,uunet}!munnari!gondwana!pmiach
I'm only relaying what I heard... The announcement is big enough for Apple Aust
to ask Aust MAcWorld to delay itself by 2 weeks so as to cover the EVENT!
*******************************************************************************
Mohammad Qureshi qureshi@sequent.berkeley.edu or qureshi@tornado.berkeley.edu
Institute of Transportation studies