miller@rsmas.miami.edu (09/20/90)
In article <1990Sep19.215751.16401@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, umcarls9@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Charles Carlson) writes: > I'm having a problem connection my Seagate 296N hard drive onto a SCSI > chain. The drive works perfectly when connected by itself, and on > the two Mac IIs I have tried connecting it to with internal Quantums. > However when I tried to connect the drive to a Mac with a Sysquest > removable <I don't remember the brand> the drive would not work at all. > We tried all combinations of termination possible...My disk ended up > getting garbled and needed to be reformatted. [...] And in separate article which arrived on my system only minutes later, rex@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Rex Sanders) writes: >Setup: Mac II with 80 Mb Rodime internal HD > new DPI 44R (Syquest) cartridge disk on external SCSI > internally terminated. > >Problem: Turn OFF power to the DPI, but leave everything attached. > Power up Mac II. > BOOM - 80 Mb internal HD scrambled. > Spend 2-3 days recovering files using SUM II. > Could not recover from backups - that's what we attached the DPI for! > Repeated problem (accidentally) twice. > [...] So, the obvious question is "Are removables (perhaps Syquest's in particular) trashing hard drives for no reason?". If true, this is a rather alarming development in view of the fact that many of us have recently invested in removables as backup devices. Let's hear from any others who have had similar problems to those described above AND LET'S HEAR FROM _COMPANIES_ _WHICH_ *SELL* _REMOVABLES_, particularly DPI and Syquest. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry L. Miller INTERNET: miller@rsmas.miami.edu Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, University of Miami Remember: "It's later now than it's ever been; however, vg'f zber yvxr vg vf abj guna vg unf rire orra orsber."
psych@watserv1.waterloo.edu (R.Crispin - Psychology) (09/21/90)
I have a DPI removable that I have used on SE/30 and IIcx with all sorts of wierd combinations of hard drives (from several old 20 meg apple drives to a 320meg micropolis) and have never had a scrambled drive. I have had problems with the reilability of the cartridges themselves and with the internal termination on the DPI (since removed) so the drives are not perfect. Maybe the problem is with the MacII SCSI implementation. Richard Crispin Phone: (519)888-4781 Dept. of Psychology Bitnet: psych@watdcs University of Waterloo Internet: psych@watserv1.UWaterloo.ca Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1
wilcox@hydra.unm.edu (Sherman Wilcox) (09/21/90)
In article <9549.26f8a1f0@rsmas.miami.edu> miller@rsmas.miami.edu writes: >[...] > >So, the obvious question is "Are removables (perhaps Syquest's in particular) >trashing hard drives for no reason?". > >Let's hear from any others who have had similar problems to those described >above AND LET'S HEAR FROM _COMPANIES_ _WHICH_ *SELL* _REMOVABLES_, particularly >DPI and Syquest. Well, this is terribly frightful, especially since I had just last night finally made a decision to by a DPI Syquest as my backup of choice, over a Teac tape system. I'd like to second the plea to hear from others concerning Sysquest removeables. Do they trash hard drives? Should I, yet again, re-consider by backup decision?
rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull) (09/22/90)
In article <1990Sep21.140502.8273@ariel.unm.edu> wilcox@hydra.unm.edu (Sherman Wilcox) writes: >In article <9549.26f8a1f0@rsmas.miami.edu> miller@rsmas.miami.edu writes: >>[...] >> >>So, the obvious question is "Are removables (perhaps Syquest's in particular) >>trashing hard drives for no reason?". >>Let's hear from any others who have had similar problems to those described >>above AND LET'S HEAR FROM _COMPANIES_ _WHICH_ *SELL* _REMOVABLES_, particularly >>DPI and Syquest. >I'd like to second the plea to hear from others concerning Sysquest >removeables. Do they trash hard drives? Should I, yet again, re-consider >by backup decision? No problems here. I have an Alliance Peripherals removeable (Syquest mechanism). I'm using it on a Mac II with 100 meg internal. The main difference (I gather) from the DPI everyone's talking about is that the APS has external termination, and the DPI apparently has internal. This could be the problem. At least one of the complaints about trashed hard drives involved a DPI (internal termination) being powered off while the other hard drive was in operation. If I understand termination properly, internal terminators draw power from the device they're attached to, so that if that device is powered off, the bus would no longer be terminated correctly. On the other hand, some (which?) models of Macintosh supply terminator power for external terminators, so on those models it doesn't matter whether or not the drive is powered on (as long as the termination is external). I'm sure everyone will correct me if I'm wrong :-) Robert -- Robert K. Shull rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu chinet!uokmax!rob
sohn@Apple.COM (a phil sohn) (09/22/90)
Our group has been using Mass microsystems Syquest drives for ten months. (We have about ten of them.) We have never had a problem with the internal hard disk crashing! I did crash one of the removable cartridges, but it was handled roughly. I was able to recover all of the files and reformat the drive though. (I am still using it today.) I would recommend using a Syquest drive for primary storage over a traditional hard drive. It IS difficult to copy from one cartridge to another; however, it is easy to use one disk for programming, one for word processing, one for music applications, one for games, etc. Syquest drives also have a quick access time. (One of my friends is using a Syquest drive as his only hard disk, and he loves it.) On the down side, I don't care for internal termination: it seems to be the cause of some problems. It is difficult to connect several SCSI drives that all have internal termination, especially when the manufactures don't tell you how to remove the internal terminator. One of our machines even needs a terminator on a SCSI drive that has an internal terminator! In summary, I have extensively used Syquest drives and have found them as reliable as traditional hard disks. I also believe that Syquest drives are viable as the only hard disk on a system. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ a phil sohn sohn@apple.com <- ARPA phil@ems.media.mit.edu sohn <- AppleLink Since I am self employeed, I hope that my opinion and that of my employeer are one and the same. ------------------------------------------------------------
MARCELO@pucc.princeton.edu (MARCELO) (09/22/90)
In article <1990Sep21.140502.8273@ariel.unm.edu> wilcox@hydra.unm.edu (Sherman Wilcox) writes: > Well, this is terribly frightful, especially since I had just last night > finally made a decision to by a DPI Syquest as my backup of choice, over > a Teac tape system. > > I'd like to second the plea to hear from others concerning Sysquest > removeables. Do they trash hard drives? Should I, yet again, re-consider > by backup decision? I have been usning a Syquest Removable (from MicroTech) for over a year now, and have had no problems what-so-ever. Not totally true since I did have problems getting A/UX to recognize it, but all is well now. .. Marcelo .. marcelo@pucc.princeton.edu marcelo@idunno.princeton.edu marcelo@phoenix.princeton.edu .. I didn't do it .. .. It wasn't me .. .. Nobody saw me do it .. .. Nobody can prove a thing ..
tw@Atherton.COM (Tw Cook) (09/25/90)
References:<9549.26f8a1f0@rsmas.miami.edu> <1990Sep21.140502.8273@ariel.unm.edu> <10354@goofy.Apple.COM> I have been using a Mass Micro Syquest at work for some time and recently got one at home as well. I've never had a reliability problem of any kind. I use it as a combination of backup device and extra hard disk. At work, I can back up ~180mb in only a few minutes, which is an incredible win. As phil sohn suggests, I also have a few cartridges with special applications and related files which I use as though they were standalone hard disks (for example, I keep slide templates, clip art, and slide-making program on one). This is really convenient for me; it is difficult to back them up, but since most of the bits on these are easily re-creatable from the original installation disks, all I really need to worry about are the data files. I can back those up to my internal hard disk or to floppy if I feel they're worth it.
tonyrich@titanic.cs.wisc.edu (Anthony Rich) (09/25/90)
>> So, the obvious question is "Are removables (perhaps Syquest's in >> particular) trashing hard drives for no reason?". My wife tells me "There's a reason for *everything*; it's just that you may not *understand* the reason." (...I don't know WHY she tells me that. ;^) I think the "trashed hard drive" problem might be a general SCSI termination problem. Last spring I put together a Teac 150MB backup tape drive from a raw drive and an enclosure/power supply. I found out *immediately* that if I turned off the Teac while the Mac II was still running, the hard drive directory got trashed on the very next event (i.e., double-clicking a folder). I posted a question about it on the net this summer, and people who know the mysteries of SCSI termination told me that my Teac's termination power is apparently drawn from the enclosure rather than the SCSI bus, so turning off the enclosure's power brings down the whole SCSI chain. Evidently that can cause corruption of the (internal) hard disk directory, too. Perhaps the reported problem with the Syquest removable is related. Termination problems can be tricky. My particular solution has been simply to shut down the Mac first, turn off the Teac and unplug it, then restart the Mac. It's inconvenient, but I can live with it. So the reported problem *may* be more generic; don't be too quick to blame Syquest removables in particular. -- Tony -- ----------------------------------------- | EMAIL: tonyrich@titanic.cs.wisc.edu | | Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. | -----------------------------------------
clubmac@runxtsa.runx.oz.au (Australia's Largest Mac Users Group) (09/25/90)
In article <1990Sep21.140502.8273@ariel.unm.edu> wilcox@hydra.unm.edu (Sherman Wilcox) writes: >Well, this is terribly frightful, especially since I had just last night >finally made a decision to by a DPI Syquest as my backup of choice, over >a Teac tape system. I'd take the Syquest any day over one of those Teac tape drives... From personal experience, I've never been happy with the Teac. >I'd like to second the plea to hear from others concerning Sysquest >removeables. Do they trash hard drives? Should I, yet again, re-consider >by backup decision? There's nothing wrong with Syquest drives, I've used them with a number of different hard disks including Rodime, Quantum, Seagate & Imprimis without any mishaps. I must say, however, that I think there is something screwy with the Mac II SCSI, and nobody at Apple Australia's tech support could explain why I only need one terminator at the end of the SCSI chain. e.g. Mac II ---- Quantum 120S ---- Archive Tape Drive ---- Syquest (terminated) (unterminated) (unterminated) N.B. Mac II has NO internal SCSI drive. _____________________________________________________________________________ | Jason Haines, Vice-President | | Club Mac - Australia's Largest Macintosh Users Group | | G.P.O. Box 4523, Sydney, New South Wales, AUSTRALIA, 2001 | | | | INTERNET:clubmac@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!clubmac | | ACSNet: clubmac@runxtsa.runx.oz | | | | Phone: (02) 743-6929 Club Mac BBS: (02) 907-9198 | | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | | "If that was his face, then he has a huge cleft in his chin" - Agent 86 | |_____________________________________________________________________________|
shankar@SRC.Honeywell.COM (Subash Shankar) (09/26/90)
I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion or not, but my recently bought removable has a warning that the boot block of the hard drive can be trashed if two SCSI devices have the same ID. Does there exist a power-up sequence which causes both devices to temporarily have the same ID? --- Subash Shankar Honeywell Systems & Research Center MN65-2100 voice: (612) 782 7558 US Snail: 3660 Technology Dr., Minneapolis, MN 55418 shankar@src.honeywell.com srcsip!shankar
kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu (Ken Hancock) (09/27/90)
In article <2306@runxtsa.runx.oz.au> clubmac@runxtsa.runx.oz.au (Australia's Largest Mac Users Group) writes: >In article <1990Sep21.140502.8273@ariel.unm.edu> wilcox@hydra.unm.edu (Sherman Wilcox) writes: >>Well, this is terribly frightful, especially since I had just last night >>finally made a decision to by a DPI Syquest as my backup of choice, over >>a Teac tape system. > >I'd take the Syquest any day over one of those Teac tape drives... From >personal experience, I've never been happy with the Teac. Well, just so you can have two different points of view, mine is the exact opposite. I've had one experience with a Syqest drive and never want to have another -- it just left a bad taste in my mouth. On the other hand, I've had a Teac drive for about a year+ now and have been extrememly happy with it. It has cheaper media costs than the Syqest (150MB/$25 no compression, up to 300MB/$25 with compression) and is fast enough for me (6-7MB/minute). I've always believed that tapes were the perfect media for backup -- it's a shame that Apple had to standardize on the dog of tape backups, the DC2000. Ken -- Ken Hancock | This account needs a new home in MA... Isle Systems | Can you provide a link for it? isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu | It doesn't bite... :-)
rad@genco.uucp (Bob Daniel) (09/28/90)
In article <4270@husc6.harvard.edu> kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu (Ken Hancock) writes: >Well, just so you can have two different points of view, mine is the >exact opposite. I've had one experience with a Syqest drive and never >want to have another -- it just left a bad taste in my mouth. If your Mac bombed when you first used it would you go to DOS? Actually, it probably depends on the driver you use and how it was terminated. I have as APS SyQuest but use SilverLining. I feel more comfortable using a cartridge than worry about a tape restoring. At least I can use Norton Utils if a cartidge crashes (which hasn't happened yet). If a tape goes bad, then your outa lu(uck (which has happened too often). >and is fast enough for me (6-7MB/minute). I've always believed that >tapes were the perfect media for backup -- it's a shame that Apple >had to standardize on the dog of tape backups, the DC2000. I don't think tape is the best method. Tape can be affected too easily from strong magnetic fields. And if a tape goes bad.... no Norton to turn to. Waiting for a restore is not better than instant access. I sold my Teac, I've lost too much using it. SyQuests are even better as a second drive. Can't do that with a tape drive. Access time is better than many conventional drives. It mounts and umounts like a floppy. _________ moof moof
kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu (Ken Hancock) (09/28/90)
In article <53@genco.uucp> rad@genco. (Bob Daniel) writes: >In article <4270@husc6.harvard.edu> kenh@hscfsas1.harvard.edu (Ken Hancock) writes: >>Well, just so you can have two different points of view, mine is the >>exact opposite. I've had one experience with a Syqest drive and never >>want to have another -- it just left a bad taste in my mouth. > >If your Mac bombed when you first used it would you go to DOS? Actually, >it probably depends on the driver you use and how it was terminated. I have No, I wouldn't. But I also know the difference between a bomb and corrupted data. In my case, a cartridge was mailed to me containing data for a project I was working on. 4+ megs were corrupted. Even after 5 hours with SUM II, very little of it was recovered. >as APS SyQuest but use SilverLining. I feel more comfortable using a >cartridge than worry about a tape restoring. At least I can use Norton >Utils if a cartidge crashes (which hasn't happened yet). If a tape goes >bad, then your outa lu(uck (which has happened too often). If a tape goes bad, information is written redundantly. You'd have to have a large portion of the tape go bad to lose information. If your directory gets trashed on your SyQuest, even Norton may not be able to recover it. >I don't think tape is the best method. Tape can be affected too easily >from strong magnetic fields. And if a tape goes bad.... no Norton to >turn to. Waiting for a restore is not better than instant access. I sold >my Teac, I've lost too much using it. Well, I realize that -your- SyQuest has performed flawlessly. But I also know lots of people who have had no ends to trouble. Thanks, but I have to wonder about a company that needed 140 revisions of their controller board [read MacWeek] to get all the bugs worked out. (There's another laugh -- no bugs?) Me, I'll stick with tape, I'll be happy with it, and I won't play russian roulette with my backups. Ken -- Ken Hancock | This account needs a new home in MA... Isle Systems | Can you provide a link for it? isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu | It doesn't bite... :-)
david@twg.com (David S. Herron) (10/04/90)
In article <2702@idunno.Princeton.EDU> MARCELO@pucc.princeton.edu (MARCELO) writes: > I have been usning a Syquest Removable (from MicroTech) for over a >year now, and have had no problems what-so-ever. Not totally true since I >did have problems getting A/UX to recognize it, but all is well now. Over in the Amiga newsgroups there hasn't been anybody thinking that Syquests were in any way shape or form bad. In fact, people kinda like 'em .. Changing disks isn't a bother anymore since drivers are out which do the "diskchange" stuff automatically from hard disk as well as floppy .. Personally I don't see why people wanna use 'em for backups. They run ya $2/meg for the cartridges and tapes run $.20/meg. Simple economics if'n ya ask me ;-) -- <- David Herron, an MMDF & WIN/MHS guy, <david@twg.com> <- Formerly: David Herron -- NonResident E-Mail Hack <david@ms.uky.edu> <- <- Remember: On System V it's "tar xovf", not "tar xvf"!
whit@milton.u.washington.edu (John Whitmore) (10/11/90)
In article <1990Sep21.121008.21131@watserv1.waterloo.edu> psych@watserv1.waterloo.edu (R.Crispin - Psychology) writes: >I have a DPI removable that I have used on SE/30 and IIcx with all sorts of >wierd combinations of hard drives (from several old 20 meg apple drives to >a 320meg micropolis) and have never had a scrambled drive. A friend of mine had a hard disk scrambled when he attached his cartridge drive for backup, and we KNOW why it happened; the cartridge drive and the hard disk were BOTH SCSI address #0. That's guaranteed to confuse ANY file system. Recovery was possible, and our hats are off to Norton Utilities for Macintosh (which was the tool that did the job). Set the cartridge drive ID carefully, before connecting. John Whitmore