gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) (11/10/90)
Ya know, the more I hear about what Apple left out of the low-cost Macs,
the more I get annoyed with it. For example...
1) The switch to a 16-bit data path on the 68020. Albeit it's not
a real big slowdown, it doesn't seem that the price would be so
outrageously affected by using the same chip that is in a Mac II.
2) The power problems. You can't even use the 8*24 GC card in an IIsi
because it draws too much power from the supply. And Apple is pushing
both the LC and IIsi as multimedia-capable machines. Yeah, they have
sound input now, but that lack of power reduces the ability of those
machines to handle some cards.
But the biggest annoyance of all is the lack of slots. Once again, Apple
is beaten in cost because cheap-o PC clones and Amigas come with at least
3 slots. It seems the only way they know how to reduce costs is
to reduce features and functionality. C'mon guys, one slot? And 5 bus
architectures (SE Direct, '020 Direct, '030 Direct, Portable, and NuBus)!
Yes, the new stuff is cheap...but then again...you get what you pay for.
And it's a got a few new bells and whistles, but in the end, it ain't anything
to go bonkers over.
I, for one, am real disappointed.
--
Jason Gross Comp Sci Ugrad University of Miami Class of '91 (?)
===========================================================================
Hey, wanna save the world? | Got sumtin' to say? gross@umiami.bitnet
Nuke a Godless, Communist, | Pick and choose! gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu
gay whale for Christ. | gross@miavax.ir.miami.edu
- Anonymous | jgross@umbio.med.miami.edu
===========================================================================
The University of Miami has a lovely fountain. rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) (11/10/90)
In article <1990Nov9.172342.7363@umiami.ir.miami.edu> gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) writes: > But the biggest annoyance of all is the lack of slots. Once again, Apple > is beaten in cost because cheap-o PC clones and Amigas come with at least > 3 slots. I'm curious, and I really don't know. Do the cheap-o machines mentioned come with built-in video, SCSI port, modem port, printer/network port, external floppy drive port, and mouse port? Or do some of their slots have to be used for these things (if you want them)? ========================================================================== Rick Holzgrafe | {sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual}!apple!rmh Software Engineer | AppleLink HOLZGRAFE1 rmh@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. | "All opinions expressed are mine, and do 20525 Mariani Ave. MS: 3-PK | not necessarily represent those of my Cupertino, CA 95014 | employer, Apple Computer Inc."
wwtaroli@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Bill Taroli) (11/10/90)
In article <1990Nov9.172342.7363@umiami.ir.miami.edu> gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) writes: >[...] >architectures (SE Direct, '020 Direct, '030 Direct, Portable, and NuBus)! Well, let's be fair. The SE Direct is no longer supported by Apple (why should they when they don't even produce it any longer?). >Yes, the new stuff is cheap...but then again...you get what you pay for. Exactly. >I, for one, am real disappointed. I second the motion. -- ******************************************************************************* * Bill Taroli (WWTAROLI@RODAN.acs.syr.edu) | "You can and must understand * * Syracuse University, Syracuse NY | computers NOW!" -- Ted Nelson * *******************************************************************************
gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) (11/11/90)
In article <11200@goofy.Apple.COM>, rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: > In article <1990Nov9.172342.7363@umiami.ir.miami.edu> > gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) writes: >> But the biggest annoyance of all is the lack of slots. Once again, Apple >> is beaten in cost because cheap-o PC clones and Amigas come with at least >> 3 slots. > > I'm curious, and I really don't know. Do the cheap-o machines mentioned > come with built-in video, SCSI port, modem port, printer/network port, > external floppy drive port, and mouse port? Or do some of their slots have > to be used for these things (if you want them)? I understand this argument, but what if you want ethernet and a video frame grabber and 24-bit video. Sorry, you only get one. The Mac does come with more stuff built-in, but that stuff becomes the near-limit of what you can add. Machines with more slot at least have the capacity to add other stuff. All I'm saying is that looking at all the new Macs, it seems that the only way Apple can reduce costs is to just give you what you need and nothing more. I would've loved to see a 20MHz IIcx-type machine with maybe one PDS and two NuBus slots. Oh well. :) -- Jason Gross Comp Sci Ugrad University of Miami Class of '91 (?) =========================================================================== Hey, wanna save the world? | Got sumtin' to say? gross@umiami.bitnet Nuke a Godless, Communist, | Pick and choose! gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu gay whale for Christ. | gross@miavax.ir.miami.edu - Anonymous | jgross@umbio.med.miami.edu =========================================================================== The University of Miami has a lovely fountain.
wln@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (William L Nussbaum) (11/11/90)
In article <1990Nov10.191823.7366@umiami.ir.miami.edu> gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) writes: >In article <11200@goofy.Apple.COM>, rmh@apple.com (Rick Holzgrafe) writes: >> In article <1990Nov9.172342.7363@umiami.ir.miami.edu> >> gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) writes: >>> But the biggest annoyance of all is the lack of slots. Once again, Apple >>> is beaten in cost because cheap-o PC clones and Amigas come with at least >>> 3 slots. >> >> I'm curious, and I really don't know. Do the cheap-o machines mentioned >> come with built-in video, SCSI port, modem port, printer/network port, >> external floppy drive port, and mouse port? Or do some of their slots have >> to be used for these things (if you want them)? > >I understand this argument, but what if you want ethernet and a video frame >grabber and 24-bit video. Sorry, you only get one. > >The Mac does come with more stuff built-in, but that stuff becomes the >near-limit of what you can add. Machines with more slot at least have the >capacity to add other stuff. > >All I'm saying is that looking at all the new Macs, it seems that the only >way Apple can reduce costs is to just give you what you need and nothing >more. I would've loved to see a 20MHz IIcx-type machine with maybe >one PDS and two NuBus slots. > >Oh well. :) ...if you want Ethernet, frame grabbing, and 24-bit video, you probably ought to be using a more powerful system than a IIsi. If you chose to stay with the less-expensive machines (which, given that it will be hindering your speed, probably isn't a great idea for work that requires all this...) you have a number of options: 1. Get an LC, add the VRAM simm to give you 16-bit video (which, though not 24-bit, should be sufficient for anything except final professional work to go to 1" video: slides & such don't rely on the computer's video capabilities, only on the specification), add SCSI ethernet, as you would do on a Plus/Classic/SE/SE/30, and add a PDS/20 frame grabber when available (dunno if it's going to happen, given the expectations mentioned above, but it might...), which would provide what you would be asking for, or: 2. Get a IIsi and a third-party 4-slot chassis, and throw 3 full-featured cards into it. Yes, the chassis will cost a few hundred, but if you're concerned enough to not go with the ci (despite the fact that you'll be spending a couple thousand on the cards...) the $400 to $600 additional (I can't imagine a 4-slot chassis would be any more expensive than that) will save you $400 to $600 off a ci. Maybe. It's going to bring you to almost the price of a ci, though, and strain the si, as the prior arrangement would do to the LC. 3. Get the ci. As I've already said, if your needs require more than one _card_, you're probably trying to cut corners where it just doesn't make sense to do so. Just some thoughts on the subject... - Lee | William illiam Lee Nussbaum, Jr. | >> InterNet: wln@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | >> CompuServe: 72401.3554 (@compuserve.com) | <attach usual non-representation disclaimer>
john@newave.UUCP (John A. Weeks III) (11/12/90)
In article <1990Nov9.172342.7363@umiami.ir.miami.edu> gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) writes: > But the biggest annoyance of all is the lack of slots. Once again, Apple > is beaten in cost because cheap-o PC clones and Amigas come with at least > 3 slots. It seems the only way they know how to reduce costs is > to reduce features and functionality. C'mon guys, one slot? This is bolonga. I run a network of PS/2 machines. The PS/2-70's have three slots. One is filled with a video card (8514), two with the network adapter, and slot three with a tape drive interface card. Zero slots left. My mac IIsi has a built in network port, SCSI for the tape drive, and built in 8-bit color video. I still have one slot free. Thus, 3 slot PS/2 < 1 slot Mac II. Now then, lets say I want to add something to either machine. Chances are I cannot add it to the PS/2 because all of the slots are full, but I still have several ports free on my Mac II. If you really need the slots, you do have options. You can buy one of the larger Macs with lots of slots (just like you can buy a some PC's with lots of slots), or you can add a expansion chassis. If you compare the slot problem with a PC/AT, you will get similar results. My PC/AT Unix machine has several slots full just to get the basic machine working. 1 slot for VGA, 1 for disk drive card, 2 for serial ports & parallel ports, 1 for tape drive. This is 5 slots out of 6, leaving one free slot. I fail to see how the single slot of the Mac IIsi is anything but a feature. -john- -- =============================================================================== John A. Weeks III (612) 942-6969 john@newave.mn.org NeWave Communications ...uunet!rosevax!bungia!wd0gol!newave!john ===============================================================================
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (11/12/90)
In article <1990Nov11.074529.11452@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> wln@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (William L Nussbaum) writes: >the $400 to $600 additional (I can't imagine a 4-slot chassis would be >any more expensive than that) will save you $400 to $600 off a ci. I was at a show recently where the people (Third Wave, I think) who make the expansion chassis were demoing their hardware. The suggested retail for their 4 slot boxes, both for the SE/30 and for NuBus machines was around $1100. I haven't seen them in mail order that I can remember. The 8 slot versions went for around $2000.
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (11/12/90)
In article <39536@ut-emx.uucp> awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) writes: >In article <1990Nov11.074529.11452@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> wln@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (William L Nussbaum) writes: > >>the $400 to $600 additional (I can't imagine a 4-slot chassis would be >>any more expensive than that) will save you $400 to $600 off a ci. > >I was at a show recently where the people (Third Wave, I think) who make the >expansion chassis were demoing their hardware. The suggested retail for their >4 slot boxes, both for the SE/30 and for NuBus machines was around $1100. I >haven't seen them in mail order that I can remember. The 8 slot versions went >for around $2000. For these prices, an industrial-strength power supply ought to be included. (If you are going to do this, why not get a IIci in the first place? Or a IIx?) -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) (11/12/90)
I can't believe y'all are going to be satisfied with a big ugly card cage
hanging outside of the box! Shades of TRS-80 Model IV. :)
If Apple just left the slots in...we wouldn't have this problem!
Here's what it boils down to: When I read about the new Nexts, I get intrigued.
When I read about some snazzy Amiga show, I get interested. When I read
about new Macs that use less to reduce costs...I get disappointed. A real
innovative move, something Apple is supposedly known for, would have been
to come out with something very powerful and yet have a low cost.
Now that's true innovation. Anyone can pull stuff out and reduce cost.
Just my $.03
--
Jason Gross Comp Sci Ugrad University of Miami Class of '91 (?)
===========================================================================
Hey, wanna save the world? | Got sumtin' to say? gross@umiami.bitnet
Nuke a Godless, Communist, | Pick and choose! gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu
gay whale for Christ. | gross@miavax.ir.miami.edu
- Anonymous | jgross@umbio.med.miami.edu
===========================================================================
The University of Miami has a lovely fountain. awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (11/12/90)
In article <1990Nov12.063801.2675@eng.umd.edu> russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: >For these prices, an industrial-strength power supply ought to be included. >(If you are going to do this, why not get a IIci in the first place? Or >a IIx?) Some people who can really push a Mac don't have all the money they'd like, so they buy their Mac piecemeal. The SE/30 5/80 costs about $2700 here and the ci goes for about $4250. Of course, the IIx is gone now so that option isn't available other than old stock or the used market. Another advantage to the external box is that it leaves you with an easily transportable base machine.
Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) (11/14/90)
Rick Holzgrafe writes in a message on 10 Nov 90:
RH> I'm curious, and I really don't know. Do the cheap-o machines
RH> mentioned come with built-in video, SCSI port, modem port, printer/network
RH> port, external floppy drive port,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The LC and IIsi have an external floppy port? Boy, that'll be news to my dealer
and his stock of machines.
--Adam--
--
Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200.2!Adam.Frix
INET: Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORGFrom: F.Frix@p@p@@.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam m m) (11/14/90)
Rick Holzgrafe writes in a message on 10 Nov 90: RH> I'm curious, and I really don't know. Do the cheap-o machines R R mentioned comNatthoutAdamForce in the 9606ficmake ile it was true that the mentstill had Rabaul, but the losses taken by the USAF and USN 'm cranthay , CAIsi have anave anaernal floppy port? Boy, that'll be news to my dealer and his stock of machines. ------ -- Adam am a via cmhGate - Net t t fido<=>uucp gateway Col, O, O,UUCP: ...!osu-cis!s!smr!c!c!te!200.2!2!2INET: Ada Ada #! rnew
Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) (11/14/90)
William L Nussbaum writes in a message on 11 Nov 90 to Mondo: WLN> 2. Get a IIsi and a third-party 4-slot chassis, and throw 3 WLN> full-featured cards into it. Yes, the chassis will cost a few WLN> hundred, but if you're concerned enough to not go with the ci WLN> (despite the fact that you'll be spending a couple thousand on WLN> the cards...) the $400 to $600 additional (I can't imagine a WLN> 4-slot chassis would be any more expensive than that) will save WLN> you $400 to $600 off a ci. Maybe. It's going to bring you to WLN> almost the price of a ci, though, and strain the si, as the prior WLN> arrangement would do to the LC. The new Second Wave chassis have their own power supplies, in addition to room for hard drives, so adding cards using this method won't strain the LC or si as far as power goes. --Adam-- -- Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200.2!Adam.Frix INET: Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG
jimb@silvlis.com (Jim Budler) (11/15/90)
In article <1990Nov9.172342.7363@umiami.ir.miami.edu> gross@umiami.ir.miami.edu (Mondo) writes: >Ya know, the more I hear about what Apple left out of the low-cost Macs, >the more I get annoyed with it. For example... > > 1) The switch to a 16-bit data path on the 68020. Albeit it's not > a real big slowdown, it doesn't seem that the price would be so > outrageously affected by using the same chip that is in a Mac II. Yes, it was nice of Apple to expand from an 8 bit bus to a 16 bit bus wasn't it? > > 2) The power problems. You can't even use the 8*24 GC card in an IIsi > because it draws too much power from the supply. And Apple is pushing > both the LC and IIsi as multimedia-capable machines. Yeah, they have > sound input now, but that lack of power reduces the ability of those > machines to handle some cards. Why the 'even'? The 8*24 GC card has long been acknowledged to exceed power specs for one slot. The cards the IIsi can't use are all power hungry. And most are for functions that are really beyond the intended market of the IIsi. Apple should have designed the machine for the 1% to 5% of the people who need AND buy multiple or high power cards? I think it is a beautiful machine, and I wouldn't really want a larger machine wasting space on my desk for slots I wouldn't use. The sales and market have shown that more buyers agree with me than agree with you. > >But the biggest annoyance of all is the lack of slots. Once again, Apple >is beaten in cost because cheap-o PC clones and Amigas come with at least >3 slots. It seems the only way they know how to reduce costs is >to reduce features and functionality. C'mon guys, one slot? And 5 bus >architectures (SE Direct, '020 Direct, '030 Direct, Portable, and NuBus)! > Maybe, but 99% of us won't even use the one slot we've got. What 5 bus architecture? A PDS is *not* a bus. It's a direct connection to the CPU chip. As such different PDS layouts have more to do with pinout of the 68000, 68020, and 68030 than anything Apple did. Complain to Motorola. >Yes, the new stuff is cheap...but then again...you get what you pay for. And more than happy with it, thank you. It's very well built, very fast, and provides all the expansion I can see need for in the forseable future. The things I can see *needing* more capability than is provided by the IIsi probably aren't met by *any* $4000 machine on the market. And yes, I include the new Next and the new Sparc2 in that statement, although they are probably the closest machines. Please note when I say needing, I mean exactly that, the difference between doing or not doing a job. > >And it's a got a few new bells and whistles, but in the end, it ain't anything >to go bonkers over. > >I, for one, am real disappointed. > Well then, go buy one of those wonderful cheap PC clones, since it is slots and power supplies that turn you on. >Jason Gross Comp Sci Ugrad University of Miami Class of '91 (?) jim -- __ __ / o / Jim Budler jimb@silvlis.com | Proud / / /\/\ /__ Silvar-Lisco, Inc. +1.408.991.6115 | MacIIsi /__/ / / / /__/ 703 E. Evelyn Ave. Sunnyvale, Ca. 94086 | owner
hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) (11/15/90)
In article <96064.27415CF3@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) writes: > >Rick Holzgrafe writes in a message on 10 Nov 90: > >RH> I'm curious, and I really don't know. Do the cheap-o machines >RH> mentioned come with built-in video, SCSI port, modem port, printer/network > >RH> port, external floppy drive port, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >The LC and IIsi have an external floppy port? Boy, that'll be news to my >dealer and his stock of machines. > >--Adam-- Well, if this will be a suprise to your dealer, then your dealer is a MORON. I can't attest to the LC, but the IIsi next to me on my wife's desk certainly has an external floppy port. Note, it is not right next to the SCSI port, as it was on the ci and cx, it's down on the end. Perhaps this is what confused your dealer. (lord knows its hard for such people to understand those pretty pictures Apple labels all the ports with, and of course it would be way to much to expect them to read product spec. sheets. They might actually run the risk of learning something...) Disclaimer: Any apparrent flames in the preceeding article are entirely intensional. I am getting sick to my stomach with this thread. Josh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh Hodas Home Phone: (215) 222-7112 4223 Pine Street School Office Phone: (215) 898-9514 Philadelphia, PA 19104 New E-Mail Address: hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu
gaynor@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Jim Gaynor) (11/16/90)
In article <32935@netnews.upenn.edu> hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) writes: >In article <96064.27415CF3@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) writes: >> >>The LC and IIsi have an external floppy port? Boy, that'll be news to my >>dealer and his stock of machines. > >Well, if this will be a suprise to your dealer, then your dealer is a MORON. > >I can't attest to the LC, but the IIsi next to me on my wife's desk >certainly has an external floppy port. > >...of course it would be way to much to expect them to read product >spec. sheets. They might actually run the risk of learning >something... I'm sitting here at my desk, product spec sheets in hand. The LC does -not- have an external floppy port. Looking at the back of the lil' pizza box, we have, from left to right: power switch, main power receptacle, video port, printer port, modem port, SCSI port, ADB port, sound-out port, sound-in port, and expansion slot access port. I even remember an article in the recent MacWorld where, in talking about the design history of the LC, the engineers said proudly that the reason there wasn't an external floppy port on the LC is that it the connector would've added to the LC's cost. The IIsi -does- have en external floppy port. Looking at back, from left to right: (top) main power receptacle, (bottom) power switch, sound-in port, (top) outlet for monitor, (bottom) stereo-out port, modem port, printer port, SCSI port, (top) expansion slot access port, (bottom) video port, floppy disk drive port, ADB port. So there. <grin> By the way, dealers often have trouble getting and/or keeping product spec sheets. Getting spec sheets from my local dealer is like pulling teeth. 'sides, window shoppers pick them up at a furious pace - I've seen an entire box of Apple product flyers go in 5 hours. And of course, for everyone, chill. I mean, if folks get this worked up over a computer... real stress would make 'em explode. You want a smiley? Have one. ;) -- Jim Gaynor - Systems Analyst 1 + "This is Serious. He is Lost. The Ohio State University ACS-FM-OCES | We must begin the Search at once." gaynor@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.ed | -Rabbit, from gaynor@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu + "The House at Pooh Corner"
jtc@latcs1.oz.au (John Catsoulis) (11/16/90)
In article <1990Nov14.225709.13353@silvlis.com> jimb@silvlis.com (Jim Budler) writes: >Yes, it was nice of Apple to expand from an 8 bit bus to a 16 bit bus >wasn't it? Since WHEN did a Mac EVER have an 8 bit data bus? It makes very little sense to give the 020 a 16 bit bus. Ok, so you don't need to add as much memory when you upgrade (16 bits wide as opposed to 32), but is this really warranted? Your going to buy as much memory as you want/need anyway, so why restrict it to being 16 bits wide. Sorry, but I don't like this AT ALL. On another note, why did they use a '000 in the Classic rather than an 010? The difference in price is negligable (on the order of a few dollars), yet the 010 can support (without getting into an argument over it) virtual memory and can therefore support this aspect of sys7. I'd be particularly interested in comments from Apple people on this last one. John. jtc@ee.latrobe.edu.au
houch@cs.albany.edu (Joseph Houghtaling) (11/16/90)
In article <96064.27415CF3@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> Adam.Frix@p2.f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) writes: > >The LC and IIsi have an external floppy port? Boy, that'll be news to my dealer >and his stock of machines. > The official Apple product description of the IIsi clearly shows an external floppy port. You are right about the LC: it has no external floppy port. Cheers! j. -- | joe houghtaling | "In my opinion television | computer science dept.| | jh0576@leah.albany.edu | validates existence." | suny at albany | | | -calvin | albany, ny 12222 usa |
c60a-cz@danube.Berkeley.EDU (Donald Burr) (11/16/90)
In article <9236@latcs1.oz.au> jtc@latcs1.oz.au (John Catsoulis) writes: [ stuff deleted ] >On another note, why did they use a '000 in the Classic rather than an 010? >The difference in price is negligable (on the order of a few dollars), yet the >010 can support (without getting into an argument over it) virtual memory and >can therefore support this aspect of sys7. I'd be particularly interested in >comments from Apple people on this last one. Is it possible to do this? (replace the processor, maybe add a speedup card, etc.) I'd really like to take advantage of as much of Sys7 as possible, which means I'll have to get more memory (this is in the works; all I need is cash) and also as you said, a higher level processor. but can this be done? If so, for how much, and where do I get the stuff (parts, etc.) from? (I'm proficient at electronics so I can install it myself) ______________________________________________________________________________ Donald Burr, Univ of California, Berkeley | "I have a seperate mail-address INTERNET: c60a-cz@danube.Berkeley.edu | for flames and other such nega- or: 72540.3071@compuserve.COM | tive msgs; it's called /dev/null."
leb@merk.UUCP (Larry Bakst) (11/16/90)
In article <9236@latcs1.oz.au> jtc@latcs1.oz.au (John Catsoulis) writes: >Since WHEN did a Mac EVER have an 8 bit data bus? It makes very little sense >to give the 020 a 16 bit bus. Ok, so you don't need to add as much memory when >you upgrade (16 bits wide as opposed to 32), but is this really warranted? Your >going to buy as much memory as you want/need anyway, so why restrict it to >being 16 bits wide. Sorry, but I don't like this AT ALL. The effects of going from a 32 bit to 16 bit internal buses can be subtle. The V8 gate array chip which is at the heart of the LC only has a 16 bit data bus and that reduces the cost of the chip. If the design was fully 32 bit than you would be forced to use 8 instead of 4 vrams chips which would again add to the cost of the design. Other secondary factors is going from 16 to 32 bits would be 2 more 74LS245's as well as more board space, power, and heat. The data path to the ROM and the 96 expansion connector is still 32 bits wide. >On another note, why did they use a '000 in the Classic rather than an 010? >The difference in price is negligable (on the order of a few dollars), yet the >010 can support (without getting into an argument over it) virtual memory and >can therefore support this aspect of sys7. I'd be particularly interested in >comments from Apple people on this last one. While it is true that the both 68010 and 68012 can rerun instructions neither chip contains has an MMU. In order to support the virtual memory features of System 7.0 Apple would have had to put an MMU into the classic. If you assume that to use existing ROMS the MMU would have to be 68851 (PMMU) or 68030 (PMMU subset) compatible, then a custom MMU chip would have to be designed. Having been involved in doing this when I worked at Alliant Computer I can tell you that it's no easy task. Again, it would have raised the cost (by adding another custom chip) and increased time to market. Also, my understanding is that Motorolla has always had low yields on the 6801x series of parts. At one point they were giving even small buyers of the 6801x series of chips better pricing on the 68020 and almost begging them to switch. In my opinion virtual memory as it currently is implemented in System 7.0 is the least important feature of 7.0. Memory is very cheap these days and VM just makes system response time variable, and quick reponse time is one of the things I like best about the MAC. I believe that the LC will be one of Apple's best selling products ever. Larry Bakst leb@merk.com -- larry bakst uucp: {...}!uunet!merk!leb
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (11/18/90)
Now that 3rd-party companies are selling 1.4Mb SCSI floppy drives
cheaply ($250), the lack of the external floppy is not a great limitation.
Frankly, I ask, why aren't *ALL* of apple's floppies SCSI by now?
Then we wouldn't have these idiotic compatibility problems with 800K
v.s. 1.4Mb floppy disk drives. 800K owners could just rip out the
internal drive and stuff in a 1.4Mb drive.
Don W. Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois
1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801
ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillieswln@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (William L Nussbaum) (11/19/90)
In article <77800072@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >Now that 3rd-party companies are selling 1.4Mb SCSI floppy drives >cheaply ($250), the lack of the external floppy is not a great limitation. > >Frankly, I ask, why aren't *ALL* of apple's floppies SCSI by now? >Then we wouldn't have these idiotic compatibility problems with 800K >v.s. 1.4Mb floppy disk drives. 800K owners could just rip out the >internal drive and stuff in a 1.4Mb drive. There are only 7 SCSI addresses, between hard drives, backup systems, scanners, Ethernet for the compact macs, etc. Other companies can make the decision to use up those addresses for floppy drives if the individual doesn't expect to need them. Apple can't - if it were standard, it would leave maybe 3-5 SCSI addresses for those other devices. I don't know whether SCSI II changes this, and I don't know about the cost of supporting SCSI II in a floppy drive, but it might be a possible later solution. Then again, it might not... - Lee | William Lee Nussbaum, Jr. | wln@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu