frank@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Frank Piper) (12/04/90)
I'm considering buying a IISi & DeskWriter, and heard scary things about the combination on AOL. Apparently newer Mac IIs have a problem with resistance degradation (?) in their serial ports: over time resistance decreases. The (AppleTalk-capable) DeskWriter sees this and goes into AppleTalk mode, which means it can't talk (directly) to the Mac any more. HP & Apple have discussed the problem; a letter from HP was posted on AOL which said that Apple had agreed it was their problem. Now for the scary part. Someone on AOL claimed that Apple's fix for this problem involved a new motherboard, and that Apple would not fix it unless you bought AppleCare. SO: I have a bunch of questions. - Has anyone seen this problem firsthand? If so, how did you fix it? - Has anyone had problems getting their Mac fixed because they hadn't bought Applecare? - A possible workaround might be to run the DeskWriter via AppleTalk from day one. I understand this would involve two AppleTalk boxes and a cable between them; total cost ~$100. Question is: would this run faster or slower than a straight serial port? - Unrelated question: the DeskWriter comes with a bunch of Compugraphic outline fonts, or so I hear. How useful are those fonts? Can you use them with Adobe Type Manager? - General question: Are DeskWriter owners happy with their machines? Please post responses; mail to me is flaky at best. TIA (Thanks In Advance)... Frank Piper (215)341-4644 frank@dev.unisys.com
rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull) (12/07/90)
In article <989@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM> frank@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Frank Piper) writes: > > (Comments about possible problems with DeskWriter and some Mac II series) > >- Has anyone seen this problem firsthand? If so, how did you fix it? No, haven't seen it. >- Has anyone had problems getting their Mac fixed because they hadn't >bought Applecare? No. Any dealer will be happy (VERY happy) to do a motherboard swap for you. Just keep shoveling cash in their direction. >- A possible workaround might be to run the DeskWriter via AppleTalk >from day one. I understand this would involve two AppleTalk boxes and a >cable between them; total cost ~$100. Question is: would this run >faster or slower than a straight serial port? First, the cost is more like $41. You need: PhoneNET StarConnector (pre-terminated) $17 (NET0069) TurboNET Plus, SE & II connector $21 (NET0010) (comes with terminator and cable) These are MacWarehouse prices. If you go this way (which I did) make sure that you DON'T get two of the StarConnectors. I ordered the connectors before my printer came in, then discovered that I couldn't plug the connector into the printer (the case got in the way) The connection should be about 3-4 times faster than straight serial. >- Unrelated question: the DeskWriter comes with a bunch of Compugraphic >outline fonts, or so I hear. How useful are those fonts? Can you use >them with Adobe Type Manager? You can't use them with ATM. The price for additional fonts is greater than the price for ATM and Plus Pack, so I wouldn't even bother. >- General question: Are DeskWriter owners happy with their machines? Very. The machine is quiet, (relatively) quick, and very compatible. The only problems I've noticed are with programs that insist on doing things their own way. For example, Deltagraph screws up rotated text (generates a low density bitmap, then rotates that and prints it). Basically, almost everything prints, although a few programs generate "ugly" output. > >Please post responses; mail to me is flaky at best. > >TIA (Thanks In Advance)... >Frank Piper >(215)341-4644 >frank@dev.unisys.com Robert -- Robert K. Shull rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu chinet!uokmax!rob
minich@d.cs.okstate.edu (Robert Minich) (12/08/90)
frank@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Frank Piper) writes: |- A possible workaround might be to run the DeskWriter via AppleTalk | from day one. I understand this would involve two AppleTalk boxes and | a cable between them; total cost ~$100. Question is: would this run | faster or slower than a straight serial port? rob@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Robert K Shull): | First, the cost is more like $41. You need: | PhoneNET StarConnector (pre-terminated) $17 (NET0069) | TurboNET Plus, SE & II connector $21 (NET0010) | (comes with terminator and cable) | | These are MacWarehouse prices. If you go this way (which I did) make sure | that you DON'T get two of the StarConnectors. I ordered the connectors | before my printer came in, then discovered that I couldn't plug the | connector into the printer (the case got in the way) | The connection should be about 3-4 times faster than straight serial. If this LAN is for the sole purpose of you connecting to your DeskWriter, you can use a simple cable without the LocalTalk/PhoneNet/<blah> boxes. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but won't an ImageWriter II <--> Mac cable do the trick? Anyway, this cable will cost you < $20 total with the only drawback being the need to purchase one more LocalTalk/... connector box should you expand your LAN to more than 2 nodes. This hack also works (with some cabling prowess and a copy the relatice Inside AppleTalk page) with LasertWriters. I have a hand-made (hand-made == ugly) cable for a Mac 128K-style port to a LaserWriter port. Works just fine on the neato laser printer that the DOS folks paid for. Since a simple cable can do the trick, there is not much of a reason to run the DeskWriter off of a normal serical line and you get a significant speedup with LocalTalk. I suppose if somehow AppleTalk confilicted with your environment, this would be a problem. -- |_ /| | Robert Minich | |\'o.O' | Oklahoma State University| "Get bent." |=(___)= | minich@d.cs.okstate.edu | -- Bart Simpson | U | - Ackphtth |
jack@Taffy.rice.edu (Jack W. Howarth) (12/08/90)
In article <989@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM> frank@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Frank Piper) writes: >I'm considering buying a IISi & DeskWriter, and heard scary things about >the combination on AOL. Apparently newer Mac IIs have a problem with >resistance degradation (?) in their serial ports: over time resistance >decreases. The (AppleTalk-capable) DeskWriter sees this and goes into >AppleTalk mode, which means it can't talk (directly) to the Mac any >more. HP & Apple have discussed the problem; a letter from HP was >posted on AOL which said that Apple had agreed it was their problem. > (stuff deleted) >- A possible workaround might be to run the DeskWriter via AppleTalk >from day one. I understand this would involve two AppleTalk boxes and a >cable between them; total cost ~$100. Question is: would this run >faster or slower than a straight serial port? >- Unrelated question: the DeskWriter comes with a bunch of Compugraphic >outline fonts, or so I hear. How useful are those fonts? Can you use >them with Adobe Type Manager? >- General question: Are DeskWriter owners happy with their machines? > >Please post responses; mail to me is flaky at best. > >TIA (Thanks In Advance)... >Frank Piper >(215)341-4644 >frank@dev.unisys.com Frank, You might be able to just use a serial cable without AppleTalk boxes on both ends as long as you aren't using more than one AppleTalk device with the IIsi. I know that you can direct connect to a LW NT with AppleTalk enabled just using an IWII cable. Best check it out yourself first though. You might look around for a demo serial only DeskWriter although they are probably gone by now. The fonts used by HP are not Type 1 and can't be rastered by ATM. As ATM 2.0 screams on a SE/30 or better, I would just get that. Although the 300 dpi printing on the DeskWriter is rated only 1 page per minute, I find that ATM 2.0 is so fast in generating 4 fold fonts that I get very close to 2 ppm (which is the rated speed of the 150 dpi draft mode). The DeskWriter is a very good printer for text and coupled with the new water insoluble ink a nice buy. I would consider a low end laserprinter if you need gray scale graphics though. The inkjet just doesn't handle that very well with kinda muddy looking results. Cheers... Jack
u2dj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (12/10/90)
> You might look around for a demo serial only DeskWriter although they are > probably gone by now. > Cheers... > Jack This suggests that the serial only Deskwriters didn't have this problem. I s this true? Also, Why the fried board in the subject? Are the boards really fried? I have a serial only DW and am about to get a IIsi -- that is, if it all works together. Ron Beloin U2DJ@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
houlejm@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Jean-Marie Houle) (12/11/90)
In article <989@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM> frank@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Frank Piper) writes: > - A possible workaround might be to run the DeskWriter via AppleTalk > from day one. I understand this would involve two AppleTalk boxes and a > cable between them; total cost ~$100. Question is: would this run > faster or slower than a straight serial port? If you need only a two nodes Appletalk network You can go without AppleTalk boxes. Just connect the two nodes with a printer cable. Jean-Marie Houle houlejm@ireq.hydro.qc.ca Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec Tel (514) 652-8083 1800 Mtee Ste Julie Fax (514) 652-8435 Varennes, Quebec Canada, J3X 1S1
neff@hp-vcd.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (12/12/90)
Regarding the DeskWriter IO "problem": O.K., many people are missing the point so I will try to clarify a few things. I will explain the situation to the best of my ability. I am giving my understanding of the problem and this is not an "official HP statement" on the problem. The DeskWriter with AppleTalk detects a Mac problem because it automatically goes into AppleTalk mode when an isolation transformer (i.e. a PhoneNet connector) is sensed. Unfortunatly, the part that fails in the Mac causes the serial port to "look like" an LocalTalk isolation transformer is plugged in. Normally, the DeskWriter goes into AppleTalk mode iff there is a transformer. If there is no transformer, it goes into serial mode. Hence you cannot use direct connect AppleTalk (use a serial cable but turn on AppleTalk) with the DeskWriter. Surprisingly enough, there is actually no reason to really. If you have a serial cable run it in serial mode, if you need AppleTalk use AppleTalk connectors. Although the data transfer rate is higher on AppleTalk, there is no real throughput difference in most cases comparing serial with AppleTalk because the limitation of the printing is the speed that we can fire dots of ink -- not the IO. And turning AppleTalk on eats up RAM in the Mac so on a low memory (1 Meg) Mac this can actually lead to slower output on AppleTalk than on serial. Now as for the problem. Resistor packs on some of the Mac's serial ports can fail over time. This is NOT caused by the DeskWriter. When these fail, the DeskWriter "sees" an isolation transformer and goes into AppleTalk mode -- even though a serial cable is used. Hence there is a problem. It also appears that when the resistor pack fails AppleTalk does not work reliably via that port -- although serial will. Unfortunately the DeskWriter will always come up in AppleTalk on a failed port. Basically, once the resistor packs fail, the port no longer is following RS-422 impedance specifications and our automatic serial/LocalTalk sensing circuit interprets the impedance in a way that implies LocalTalk connectors. It is my understanding there is a quality problem with the resistor packs used in some of the Macs. I have also heard (rumor mode on) that HP's division that makes the LaserJet printers stopped using these particular resistor packs due to quality problems. What is the bottom line? Most people do not and will never see this problem. Those who do, often only see the problem on one of their two serial ports (since each port has a separate resistor pack) and can work around it by using the other serial port to print. If you do have a port that fails, you can try using that port in AppleTalk mode. To confuse the matter more, once your resistor pack fails, you can use direct connect LocalTalk (serial cable) since the printer will power up in AppleTalk mode. The printer may work in this mode, but error rates will likely be high (we have limitted data available about this particular senario). I know that above I said DeskWriter can't do direct connect LocalTalk, but weird as it may seen once you have a blown resistor pack you can :-). HP and Apple have given official joint statements concering the problem. I had not heard that Apple would only cover the repair if the computer had AppleCare support contracts, but I cannot speak for HP -- let alone Apple :-). However, this is my understanding of the situation: 1). If you have an old Mac there probably is not a problem. If your resistor pack is already blown the DeskWriter will not work in serial mode (and may not work well in AppleTalk mode), so you can either get your Mac fixed or return the DeskWriter. Having someone replace the resistor packs at the board level shouldn't be very expensive. However I don't believe the older Macs used the questionable resistor packs. The resistor packs are a part of what Apple calls the "de-glitch network" which is between the serial drivers and the actual external IO lines. I don't know much about the Apple service network, but it would seem to me that a board level repair in this case would be fairly simple and not too expensive. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this point :-). 2). To the best of my knowledge, the problem has only been seen on new Macs during the burn in period -- 2 days to 2 months after purchase. The resistor pack is blown and Apple has been fixing the board under warrantee. It is also only seen on a very small percentage of systems. 3). It is my understanding that Apple is using different resistor packs in most (if not all) Macs currently being built. This has been an unfortunate situation. We tried to provide a user friendly automatic sensing of the IO, and it has worked well in most cases. But from what I know about the problem and what I have heard in rumors and in previous postings people are over-reacting to a very large degree. To my knowledge, nobody has had to pay a dime to get the problem fixed. There may be some problems in the future as people who bought a new Mac and the restor packs blow but they don't know about it (since the ImageWriter will still work). If later on they buy a DeskWriter they would have a problem. If they don't want to pay to have their Macs fixed they could just return their brand new DeskWriter. I would not expect Apple to repair printers out of warrantee in most cases. I doubt that this is an exception -- but you would have to ask Apple about this. I hope this helps a bit. Apple has been very responsive with this situation and HP has truly appreciated the cooperation they have given us in explaining and fixing this problem. Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM Disclaimer: Although I have tried to explain the situation as best I can THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL HP STATEMENT concerning the problem.
c60a-aj@danube.Berkeley.EDU (Charles Gousha) (12/12/90)
In article <989@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM> frank@dvnspc1.Dev.Unisys.COM (Frank Piper) writes: >I'm considering buying a IISi & DeskWriter, and heard scary things about >the combination on AOL. Apparently newer Mac IIs have a problem with >resistance degradation (?) in their serial ports: over time resistance >decreases. The (AppleTalk-capable) DeskWriter sees this and goes into >AppleTalk mode, which means it can't talk (directly) to the Mac any >more. HP & Apple have discussed the problem; a letter from HP was >posted on AOL which said that Apple had agreed it was their problem. > >Frank Piper Another possibility is using the modem port instead of the printer port. Apparently, the offending circuitry is only involved when appletalk is used, and the modem port doesn't support appletalk. So, there should never be any burnouts. Great printer, the DeskWriter. I've used one for over a year now, and it's never treated me wrong. Truly the death of the ImageWriter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles Gousha | "Yes, Star Trek IS a way of life" c60a-aj@danube.berkeley.edu | (myself) All normal disclaimers apply, including some abnormal ones.
c60a-aj@danube.Berkeley.EDU (Charles Gousha) (12/12/90)
One followup note. Yes, you can use the DeskWrtiter on the modem port but, as I realized after posting my last message, it tends to conflict with the cable already there for the modem! Just do what I do: get a serial T-switch box and flip between them as needed. 'Course, that raises the problem of printing while online... :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles Gousha | "Yes, Star Trek IS a way of life" c60a-aj@danube.berkeley.edu | (myself) All normal disclaimers apply, including some abnormal ones.