colella@emav51.webo.dg.com (Wayne Colella) (12/06/90)
Hi, folks. I hope someone out there can help me. I have a IIcx that likes to power itself down. It happens a lot more frequently when I have an air conditioner and/or copy machine running, but lately it's happening even when no other power hogs are running. I've tried plugging the IIcx into a completely different circuit than any other equipment, but the problem persists. My house has 100 amp service and a new circuit breaker box. So, then, what is happening? Is there some low-voltage circuitry in the Mac that causes it to shut itself down? I have 8Mb of memories that I got from mail order and installed myself - could they have something to do with it by being ultra-sensitive to low voltages? Am I getting low-quality power from the electric company? Sometimes taking the system apart and re-seating all the connectors seems to help, but it may be a coincidence. Any suggestions of things I might do to narrow down the problem or information about the IIcx's power would be greatly appreciated. Wayne Colella colella@emav51.webo.dg.com
beecher@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Ben Beecher) (12/08/90)
In article <1192@dg.dg.com> colella@emav51.webo.dg.com (Wayne Colella) writes: >Hi, folks. I hope someone out there can help me. I have a IIcx that >likes to power itself down. It happens a lot more frequently when I >have an air conditioner and/or copy machine running, but lately it's >happening even when no other power hogs are running. > Wayne Colella colella@emav51.webo.dg.com I suspect your SCSI devices might be the problem. What kind of hard disk is plugged into your SCSI port? Are you using a nice, fat cable? How long is the cable? Try disconnecting all SCSI devices, boot from a floppy disk, and leave the machine running for a day or so. If the problem goes away you definitely have a compatability problem with your SCSI device(s). Good luck. Ben Beecher beecher@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu Network Planning 212-854-7439 Columbia University
woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) (12/13/90)
In article <1990Dec8.010224.14756@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> beecher@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Ben Beecher) writes: >In article <1192@dg.dg.com> colella@emav51.webo.dg.com (Wayne Colella) writes: >>Hi, folks. I hope someone out there can help me. I have a IIcx that >>likes to power itself down. It happens a lot more frequently when I >>have an air conditioner and/or copy machine running, but lately it's >>happening even when no other power hogs are running. >> Wayne Colella colella@emav51.webo.dg.com > >I suspect your SCSI devices might be the problem. What kind of hard >disk is plugged into your SCSI port? Are you using a nice, fat cable? I had this problem once. Mine was an original cx. After having the 13" RGB plugged into the back of the mac for about 2-3 months, my mac started doing the same things that you are describing - shutting itself off. Problem - power supply was burning itself out. Apple replace these 'problem' power supplies, but the problem still remains - the internal power supply really can't handle anything more than a 12" mono monitor over a long period of time. To this day - even with a ci, I plug the 13" into the wall socket directly. i.e. this may or may not be your problem - it sounds like your power supply is going bad regardless of the reason. BTW - for those of you who didn't catch it.. The socket on the back is not a pass through - it draws its current from the mac itself just like the hard drive and floppy and moboard Blacksheep Senior Systems Engineer -- Darrin R. Woods woods@convex.com This is a guest account. Convex knows nothing about what I'm saying, or even that I'm saying it.
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (12/13/90)
In article <110870@convex.convex.com> woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) writes: >> >>I suspect your SCSI devices might be the problem. What kind of hard >>disk is plugged into your SCSI port? Are you using a nice, fat cable? > >I had this problem once. Mine was an original cx. After having the 13" >RGB plugged into the back of the mac for about 2-3 months, my mac started >doing the same things that you are describing - shutting itself off. >Problem - power supply was burning itself out. Apple replace these >'problem' power supplies, but the problem still remains - the internal >power supply really can't handle anything more than a 12" mono monitor >over a long period of time. I've got a Mac II which has been running a 13" High-res RGB since early 1988 or so-- seems to handle it fine. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
n67786@assari.tut.fi (Nieminen Tero) (12/13/90)
In article <110870@convex.convex.com> woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) writes: In article <1990Dec8.010224.14756@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> beecher@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Ben Beecher) writes: >In article <1192@dg.dg.com> colella@emav51.webo.dg.com (Wayne Colella) writes: >>Hi, folks. I hope someone out there can help me. I have a IIcx that >>likes to power itself down. It happens a lot more frequently when I >>have an air conditioner and/or copy machine running, but lately it's >>happening even when no other power hogs are running. >> Wayne Colella colella@emav51.webo.dg.com > >I suspect your SCSI devices might be the problem. What kind of hard >disk is plugged into your SCSI port? Are you using a nice, fat cable? I had this problem once. Mine was an original cx. After having the 13" RGB plugged into the back of the mac for about 2-3 months, my mac started doing the same things that you are describing - shutting itself off. Problem - power supply was burning itself out. Apple replace these 'problem' power supplies, but the problem still remains - the internal power supply really can't handle anything more than a 12" mono monitor over a long period of time. To this day - even with a ci, I plug the 13" into the wall socket directly. i.e. this may or may not be your problem - it sounds like your power supply is going bad regardless of the reason. BTW - for those of you who didn't catch it.. The socket on the back is not a pass through - it draws its current from the mac itself just like the hard drive and floppy and moboard Huh? Passing wall otlet power though the CX power supply. No way! There might be a relay that the CX switches on when the machine is powered up and so feeds power to the monitor, but that power surely don't pass trouhg the CX power supply in any way. Check you facts. Blacksheep Senior Systems Engineer -- Darrin R. Woods woods@convex.com This is a guest account. Convex knows nothing about what I'm saying, or even that I'm saying it. -- Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology n67786@cc.tut.fi Tampere, Finland, Europe -- Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology n67786@cc.tut.fi Tampere, Finland, Europe
colella@emav51.webo.dg.com (Wayne Colella) (12/14/90)
Thanks for the info, Ben. I seem to be narrowing down the problem. I talked to the folks at Alliance Peripheral Systems - where I bought the internal Quantum drive - and their response was similar to yours in that they thought it might be caused by a problem with the IIcx's power supply. Yesterday, when I was having powerup problems, I was always able to get further along in the powerup sequence by either disconnecting the hard drive or turning off the monitor until the drive and the rest of the system seemed to be out of the starting gate, so to speak. My next move is to have the IIcx power supply checked. Also, I'm REALLY surprised that the socket on the back doesn't just pass through the IIcx. Anyway, thanks again. Wayne Colella colella@emav51.webo.dg.com
woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) (12/15/90)
In article <1990Dec13.145158.17841@eng.umd.edu> russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: >> >>I had this problem once. Mine was an original cx. After having the 13" >>RGB plugged into the back of the mac for about 2-3 months, my mac started >>doing the same things that you are describing - shutting itself off. > >I've got a Mac II which has been running a 13" High-res RGB since early 1988 >or so-- seems to handle it fine. >-- Mac II's have a much beefier power supply than the cx's or ci's, and we won't even get into the discussion about the PS on the si. Mac II's, IIx's and IIfx's are rated at 230watts vs 90 on the cx and ci. Blacksheep Senior Systems Engineer -- Darrin R. Woods woods@convex.com This is a guest account. Convex knows nothing about what I'm saying, or even that I'm saying it.
woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) (12/17/90)
> BTW - for those of you who didn't catch it.. The socket on the back is > not a pass through - it draws its current from the mac itself just like > the hard drive and floppy and moboard > >Huh? Passing wall otlet power though the CX power supply. No way! There >might be a relay that the CX switches on when the machine is powered up >and so feeds power to the monitor, but that power surely don't pass trouhg >the CX power supply in any way. Check you facts. > > Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology (Opening Apple Technical Manuals - flipping pages) OK, I checked - unless one of my friends from Apple corporate would like to correct me, I state again. The power going out from the back of all Mac II's is directly controlled by the Power Supply - IT IS NOT A PASS THROUGH. The wattage that is stated on the back of the PS as being the max includes any power going out through the power connector to the monitor, HD or whatever. I guess you can always try it - Plug a hair dryer into the back of a cx and see what happens. Blacksheep Senior Systems Engineer -- Darrin R. Woods woods@convex.com This is a guest account. Convex knows nothing about what I'm saying, or even that I'm saying it.
n67786@lehtori.tut.fi (Nieminen Tero) (12/17/90)
In article <111548@convex.convex.com> woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) writes: > BTW - for those of you who didn't catch it.. The socket on the back is > not a pass through - it draws its current from the mac itself just like > the hard drive and floppy and moboard > >Huh? Passing wall otlet power though the CX power supply. No way! There >might be a relay that the CX switches on when the machine is powered up >and so feeds power to the monitor, but that power surely don't pass trouhg >the CX power supply in any way. Check you facts. > > Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology (Opening Apple Technical Manuals - flipping pages) OK, I checked - unless one of my friends from Apple corporate would like to correct me, I state again. The power going out from the back of all Mac II's is directly controlled by the Power Supply - IT IS NOT A PASS THROUGH. The wattage that is stated on the back of the PS as being the max includes any power going out through the power connector to the monitor, HD or whatever. I guess you can always try it - Plug a hair dryer into the back of a cx and see what happens. Correct. A pass trough outlet would be one that is directly wired to the power inlet in the machine and it would pass power though regardless of wther the machine was on or not. The "directly controlled by the Power Supply" simply means that the power supply passes power through the outlet only when the machine is powered on. So there is some kind of relay cicuit that makes the connection, and I would allmost bet my head on it that it's a normal kind of electro-mechanical relay (of cource it could be a solid state relay, but I doubt that). And that relay is the one limiting the power draw from the outlet and it has nothing more to do with the power supply (relays do have their power ratings too, you know). As I understand the function of the computer power supply to be something more than just a relay, I don't see any reason to chance what I said before. The hd, floppy and mother board draw their current throught the power supply, but the monitor power is just switched on by the power supply. (BTW, what reason would there be to make it differently). Blacksheep Senior Systems Engineer -- Darrin R. Woods woods@convex.com -- Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology n67786@cc.tut.fi Tampere, Finland, Europe
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (12/18/90)
In article <111548@convex.convex.com> woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) writes: >(Opening Apple Technical Manuals - flipping pages) >OK, I checked - unless one of my friends from Apple corporate would like >to correct me, I state again. The power going out from the back of all >Mac II's is directly controlled by the Power Supply - IT IS NOT A PASS >THROUGH. The wattage that is stated on the back of the PS as being the >max includes any power going out through the power connector to the >monitor, HD or whatever. I guess you can always try it - Plug a hair >dryer into the back of a cx and see what happens. YOW! With that supply rated at 90 watts, and the Hi-Res RGB rated at 160 watts maximum (I assume you would approach this on a cold power-on), you are really straining the supply... (Appropriate flames at Apple people who did this) -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
anderson@Apple.COM (Clark Anderson) (12/18/90)
In article <111548@convex.convex.com> woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) writes: >(Opening Apple Technical Manuals - flipping pages) >OK, I checked - unless one of my friends from Apple corporate would like >to correct me, I state again. The power going out from the back of all >Mac II's is directly controlled by the Power Supply - IT IS NOT A PASS >THROUGH. Well, I don't work in the group that designs our power supplies, so I called an engineer who does. He told me that the cx power supply is indeed a pass-through supply for the monitor. --clark ----------------------------------------------------------- Clark Anderson InterNet: anderson@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc AppleLink: C.ANDERSON BellNet: 408-974-4593 "I speak only for myself, much to my employers relief..." -----------------------------------------------------------
dan@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Dan Schwarz) (12/18/90)
In article <111548@convex.convex.com> woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) writes: >> BTW - for those of you who didn't catch it.. The socket on the back is >> not a pass through - it draws its current from the mac itself just like >> the hard drive and floppy and moboard >> >>Huh? Passing wall otlet power though the CX power supply. No way! There >>might be a relay that the CX switches on when the machine is powered up >>and so feeds power to the monitor, but that power surely don't pass trouhg >>the CX power supply in any way. Check you facts. >> >> Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology > >(Opening Apple Technical Manuals - flipping pages) >OK, I checked - unless one of my friends from Apple corporate would like >to correct me, I state again. The power going out from the back of all >Mac II's is directly controlled by the Power Supply - IT IS NOT A PASS >THROUGH. The wattage that is stated on the back of the PS as being the >max includes any power going out through the power connector to the >monitor, HD or whatever. I guess you can always try it - Plug a hair >dryer into the back of a cx and see what happens. > >Blacksheep >Senior Systems Engineer >Darrin R. Woods woods@convex.com Unless the manual specifically states that the wattage on the back of the PS includes any power going out through the monitor connector, I seriously doubt that the monitor connector draws its power from the Apple power supply. Why? couple of reasons: 1) The power supply on machines such as the Mac IIsi is grossly inadequate anyway; it's a mere 47 watts whereas the Mac IIcx power supply is rated at over 100 watts (I think; I'm a IIsi owner so I don't know about the other machines.) Would Apple expect a user to plug a monitor into a 47 watt power supply which is also handling the power demands of the CPU, hard drive, etc? I think my monitor's power requirement is well over 47 watts! 2) The term "passthrough" may be used by Apple to denote a non-switched outlet, and when they say that the connector is non-passthrough, they mean that a relay in the power supply CONTROLS the socket. They don't mean that it SUPPLIES the socket. 3) Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Apple power supply is designed to supply DC current at varying voltages to power the CPU and related devices. The monitor socket on the back of the Mac is 120VAC. So what would the power supply be supplying to the monitor socket? _Dan -- | Same as it ever was | Dan Schwarz, MB 2926 Brandeis U. | RECYCLE YOUR JUNK| | Same as it ever was | I'NET dan@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu |------------------| | Same as it ever was |----------------------------------| tradetapes?mailme| | Same as it ever was..| NO BLOOD FOR OIL: NO GULF WAR | floydrushdead,etc|
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (12/18/90)
Since this is not going to die down of its own accord, let's inject a few
facts:
o from Special Features of Your Macintosh IIcx (recent manual set), p. 9
"power: 90 watts maximum, not including monitor power"
###########################
- this is broken down as follows:
+5V 12.0 A
+12V 1.5 A
-12V 1.0 A
Note - no mention of the 100-240V monitor output in these figures - they
add up to 90W (5x12+12x1.5+12x1).
o from the label on the power supply:
- the above voltage breakdown, plus:
"receptacle 110-240V~ 50-60Hz 3A"
o on the box, next to the monitor power socket
"100-240V 3A"
Watts (power) = volts x amps; please do the appropriate arithmetic
to see if you can safely plug your monitor, hair dryer, toaster or
whatever into the back of your IIcx.
All this seems particularly clear (at risk of belabouring): the rated 90W
of the cx power supply DOES NOT INCLUDE THE MONITOR OUTPUT.
What's more, the information is available just where you'd expect
to find it: on the back of the CPU box, on the power supply and in the
manual.
--
Philip Machanick
philip@pescadero.stanford.edufry@zariski.harvard.edu (David Fry) (12/18/90)
Just an anecdote on this topic: I have a Mac II with RGB monitor pluged into the monitor outlet on the back. It has an internal HD and an external Jasmine HD. The CPU and the Jasmine are plugged into one of those power strips. If I have the Mac and monitor on but the Jasmine off, choosing Shut Down successfully shuts the Mac and the monitor off. If, however, the Jasmine is running, Shut Down turns off the computer but the monitor remains on until I shut off the Jasmine. ??? David Fry fry@math.harvard.EDU Department of Mathematics fry@huma1.bitnet Harvard University ...!harvard!huma1!fry Cambridge, MA 02138
woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) (12/18/90)
OK, this is the last I will say about this subject. No cheering from the audience. After checking with friends locally and in CA I offer my apoligies. Not being heavy into EE I made a mistake. The limit on the power supplies is not in the wattage they pass through to the monitor, but to the amperage. The cx and ci power supplies are capable of 3amps out to the monitor. The 13" monitor has a nominal power usage of 90 watts. The power supply apparently does act as a pass through but has a limit of the amperage that it can pass through - 3amps @ 120volts. It is this figure that monitors that connect to the power out must hold to. I am not sure of the amperage on the 13" color monitor, but from the problems that I have seen with it and the power supplies on the cx and ci it must be damn near 3amps. The power supply has a beefier rating and can easily handle more that 3amps. According to friends at Apple, if you could produce a two page color monitor that needed less than 3amps of pressure (?), then you could concivebly connect it to the power supply on the cx and ci. My apoligies to those I have verbally flamed for this, I hope that this clears up this discussion. My thanks to my friends still at Apple who straigtened me out on this. BTW - Did the guy ever figure out what was wrong with his cx? Blacksheep Senior Systems Engineer -- Darrin R. Woods woods@convex.com This is a guest account. Convex knows nothing about what I'm saying, or even that I'm saying it.
derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) (12/19/90)
I had this problem, on a Mail Server, no less. It is running a 10" Apple Grayscale monitor. The solution was the replacement of the power supply. Could this failure be caused by the draw of the monitor (95 watts)? Anyway this fixed the problem. To counteract the problem (before it was fixed) I switched the manual power switch on the back of the CPU to "constant on" so the unit would power right back up after the power down. This may help you for unattended operation (like a server) but it doesn't do beans if you are in the middle of some compiling, simulation work or writing the next "War and Peace." -- = John DeRosa, Motorola, Inc, Cellular Infrastructure Group = = e-mail: ...uunet!motcid!derosaj, motcid!derosaj@uunet.uu.net = = Applelink: N1111 = =I do not hold by employer responsible for any information in this message =
colella@emav51.webo.dg.com (Wayne Colella) (12/20/90)
In article <1990Dec18.152408.3331@convex.com>, woods@convex.com (Darrin Woods) writes: > > BTW - Did the guy ever figure out what was wrong with his cx? Funny you should ask. I never dreamed that my initial question would have generated so much discussion. Many thanks to the people who sent me information directly, as well as those who have been discussing (arguing?) about the issue in c.s.m.h. Anyway, I checked the rating on the back of the IIcx - the power connection for the monitor is rated at 3A. The monitor I'm using (an E-machines T16) is rated at 4A. So, what I've done (so far) is to plug the monitor directly into the wall. This means that I've got to turn on the monitor "by hand" first, and then power up the IIcx, but I think I can handle it. It's been set up this way for a couple of days without any trouble, but since the problem tends to come and go, I'll have to wait a couple of weeks before I'm convinced that I've found the solution. If not, I think my next step will be to bring it in to have the power supply checked. Anyway, thanks again everyone, and have a good holiday. Wayne Colella colella@emav51.webo.dg.com