bskendig@dae.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) (03/19/91)
[Third in a series of articles in which I try to decide whether or not
to move up from a Mac SE.]
I've recently been pricing Mac to see how much a new machine will cost
me. I grabbed a copy of Apple's university prices from my campus
distribution center, and it gave me these rough prices (I'm recalling
these from memory, so don't quote me on these):
Mac LC, one floppy drive: $1100
Mac LC, two floppy drives: $1150
Mac LC, one floppy, one 40Mb HD: $1600
Monochrome 12" monitor: $260
The difference between the two-floppy machine and the HD setup is
about $450. Well, since I already have a 50Mb hard drive and I need
two floppies anyway, the two-floppy LC seems like the perfect choice
for me.
... until I found out that Apple won't let me have one.
The people at the campus computer center expressed their apologies,
but they informed methat the two-floppy LC was only for sale to
departments, and not to individuals or students. They suggested that
I sell the hard drive I have now and get the LC with the internal HD.
Well, let's see what this would mean. After soliciting estimates from
the net, I guess I could sell my 50Mb HD for about $200. Toss in
another $250 on top of that, and I get the 40Mb hard drive in the LC.
Something's wrong, here. (And besides, the LC won't let you add an
external floppy, unless you invest in a SCSI floppy drive which is,
under my budget, prohibitively expensive.)
It's obvious why they don't want to sell machines without hard drives:
because System 7.0 (supposedly) requires a hard drive to use, and if
you don't have a HD, you can't run it. But why then are they selling
HD-less machines to departments? And why are they selling Mac IIci
and IIfx configurations without hard drives?
And what about poor people like me who already have a hard drive, and
can't afford to sell it in order to buy something smaller and more
expensive?
Fortunately, I might be able to finnagle some sort of deal with my
Apple campus rep here, because I'm doing some Apple-related work with
him -- but, if that falls through and the choice is to either get an
LC with a hard drive or nothing at all, then the choice is simple. I
can't afford a machine over $1500; I'll end up waiting to see if the
Mac clones come out by the end of the year as MacWorld believes they
will, and if not that, then I'll save up for a NeXTstation.
Can anyone from Apple explain why this policy exists? It seems to me
this strategy might hurt Apple more than it helps.
<< Brian >>
| Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig |
| Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU
| Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET |
"It's not that I don't HAVE the work to *do* -- I don't DO the work I *have*."tilley@ssd.kodak.com (David Tilley) (03/19/91)
In article <7298@idunno.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@dae.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes: >[Third in a series of articles in which I try to decide whether or not >to move up from a Mac SE.] > >I've recently been pricing Mac to see how much a new machine will cost >me. I grabbed a copy of Apple's university prices from my campus >distribution center, and it gave me these rough prices (I'm recalling >these from memory, so don't quote me on these): > > Mac LC, one floppy drive: $1100 > Mac LC, two floppy drives: $1150 > Mac LC, one floppy, one 40Mb HD: $1600 > Monochrome 12" monitor: $260 > >The difference between the two-floppy machine and the HD setup is >about $450. Well, since I already have a 50Mb hard drive and I need >two floppies anyway, the two-floppy LC seems like the perfect choice >for me. > >... until I found out that Apple won't let me have one. > >The people at the campus computer center expressed their apologies, >but they informed methat the two-floppy LC was only for sale to >departments, and not to individuals or students. They suggested that >I sell the hard drive I have now and get the LC with the internal HD. > >Well, let's see what this would mean. After soliciting estimates from >the net, I guess I could sell my 50Mb HD for about $200. Toss in >another $250 on top of that, and I get the 40Mb hard drive in the LC. >Something's wrong, here. (And besides, the LC won't let you add an >external floppy, unless you invest in a SCSI floppy drive which is, >under my budget, prohibitively expensive.) > >It's obvious why they don't want to sell machines without hard drives: >because System 7.0 (supposedly) requires a hard drive to use, and if >you don't have a HD, you can't run it. But why then are they selling >HD-less machines to departments? And why are they selling Mac IIci >and IIfx configurations without hard drives? It seems to me that the reason for forcing you to by the hard drive is so they can make a buck charging $400+ for a 40 meg drive when everbody else will sell you an 80 Meg drive for that. A rip off at best. Nobody in their right mind would by the hard drive from apple unless forced to. >Can anyone from Apple explain why this policy exists? It seems to me >this strategy might hurt Apple more than it helps. > > << Brian >> > >| Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig | >| Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU >| Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET | >"It's not that I don't HAVE the work to *do* -- I don't DO the work I *have*."
tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) (03/19/91)
In article <7298@idunno.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@dae.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes: > [original edited file follows] > >The people at the campus computer center expressed their apologies, >but they informed methat the two-floppy LC was only for sale to >departments, and not to individuals or students. They suggested that >I sell the hard drive I have now and get the LC with the internal HD. It always amazed my why Apple wouldn't sell certain products to individuals. If you got the $$, then why don't they let you buy it? Then again I'm a lowly Portuguese major who knows nothing of the business world. >And what about poor people like me who already have a hard drive, and >can't afford to sell it in order to buy something smaller and more >expensive? My question to you is: why don't you just buy the one floppy LC? That would give you a system with one HD and one FD. For most people this is more than sufficient. (Well till you run out of hard drive space :( ). I have a IIcx with one floppy, and two hard drives...and rarely have I had the need for a second one. In fact I cringe everytime I have to resort to using a floppy. You get rather spoiled with the transfer rates of harddrives. I'd sit back and re-evaluate your need for a second floppy. If you're looking to save money, my advice would be to go with the single floppy system since Apple will not consent to sell you the dual-floppy system. >LC with a hard drive or nothing at all, then the choice is simple. I >can't afford a machine over $1500; I'll end up waiting to see if the >Mac clones come out by the end of the year as MacWorld believes they >will, and if not that, then I'll save up for a NeXTstation. This one always blows my mind. I just don't see the comparison between a Mac and a NeXT for home use. (and I'm assuming this will be for home ). I have a NeXT Cube, that I use as a workstation at work. I love it and it get's the job done, but I'd never want it at home to take the place of my Mac. Don't be lured into the initial cost of the machine. The prices for software are in general quite a bit higher than that of the Mac. While there is alot of PD in the Unix world, it is very different than that of the Mac. I don't want to start a huge debate on Mac vrs NeXT, but I just see the machines as serving to very different purposes, and each doing their jobs well. In any case you are going to be spending MUCH more than 1,500 for a NeXTstation. IMO, you cannot use the smaller drives as workstations. My Cube has a 384 meg drive and I only have 60 meg free without having much software put on besides what came with the NeXTStep 2.0 release. If you're looking to buy a NeXT plan to shell out $6,000 or (more) so before you have a nice system. But my friends tend to tell me that I'm a bit power hungry....so you might just want to ignore this ;). >Can anyone from Apple explain why this policy exists? It seems to me >this strategy might hurt Apple more than it helps. I've alwyas loved Apple's machines and hated their marketing. Todd ============================================================================== Todd A. Green "<_CyberWolf_>" ---> Pascal <- tagreen@ucs.indiana.edu Unix Systems Administration ---> Unix <--- tagreen@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Macintosh Systems Administration ---> VMS <---- tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu WCC Office:136.04 phone:855-0949 ---> C <------ tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana "Friends don't let friends ---> Mac <---- tagreen@iubacs.BITNET Use DOS" - Scott Ostrander ---> SunOS <-- tagreen@lykos (FTP only) ==============================================================================
bskendig@dry.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) (03/19/91)
In article <1991Mar19.000251.23048@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) writes: >My question to you is: why don't you just buy the one floppy LC? I wasn't clear enough in my original article: I can't buy either the one-floppy LC _or_ the two-floppy LC. The only one available to me is the LC with one floppy and a hard drive. Sorry 'bout that! << Brian >> | Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig | | Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU | Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET | "It's not that I don't HAVE the work to *do* -- I don't DO the work I *have*."
keir@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Rick Keir, MACC) (03/20/91)
[omitted: Brian Kendig, @ Princeton, can only buy the hard disk based LC model, because the floppy model isn't available at an academic discount] Brian, I suspect that it is not Apple, but Princeton. Prior to the announcement of the LC, it looked like we would be offered the option of selling the floppy LC by Apple, and *we* (meaning the people engaged in resale) turned it down. Now, I am a consultant, not a sales person, so my info may be out of date, but as far as I know, higher ed dealers still have the option of purchasing floppy LC models for resale. So why don't they? Well, when the question came up here I strongly urged the people who sell *not* to offer that model, because the number of unhappy customers with two-floppy machines we'd had in the last year was roughly equivalent to the number of people who bought two-floppy machines. I've listened to them scream at us a month later when they find out that they can't run anything on their machine without a hard disk. And that, in a nutshell, is why I don't want to sell 2-floppy systems. I suspect that similar reasoning applies at Princeton. Flame retardant: Flame me for my opinions, but I did not stop sales of the floppy LC here. Consultants do not work for the sales group, and vice versa. The sales people asked our opinion, and there was a consensus that these machines were a bad idea. Apple reps tried to make a pitch for these machines as good things. Opinions were solicited elsewhere. In the end, the "It's a bad idea" made a more convincing case than Apple did. You can flame me for being one of the people who was persuasive on this issue.
pwong@theory.tn.cornell.edu (Patrick Wong) (03/20/91)
In article <1991Mar19.175408.22377@macc.wisc.edu> keir@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Rick Keir, MACC) writes: >[omitted: Brian Kendig, @ Princeton, can only buy the > hard disk based LC model, because the floppy model isn't > available at an academic discount] > >Brian, > >I suspect that it is not Apple, but Princeton. Prior to the It is Apple, not Princeton or Cornell. Let me make it clear that education discount is available for the LC 1-floppy and 2-floppy versions here. HOWEVER, only university depts. are eligible to purchase. Individual, i.e., students, profs., or staff, are not allowed to purchase them for personal consumption. All the other models, though, do not have this limitation. What is the idea behind this? Beats me! Pat PS. I do wish I can purchase the 1-floppy version for that attractive edu. price and buy a generic ext. hard drive cheaply. But, I do not OWN a dept. here! :-)
bskendig@light.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) (03/20/91)
In article <1991Mar19.175408.22377@macc.wisc.edu> keir@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Rick Keir, MACC) writes: >I suspect that it is not Apple, but Princeton. >... as far as I know, higher ed dealers still >have the option of purchasing floppy LC models for resale. Nope. I've been told both by computer stores who sell Apple equipment, and Apple employees through email, that the HD-less LC's are not intended to be sold to the public either through retail or through educational institutions; they're for departments who can hook lots of them up to a fileserver. Apple will only take special orders from departments on them; they're built custom, I think I was told. >..., because the number of unhappy customers with >two-floppy machines we'd had in the last year was roughly >equivalent to the number of people who bought two-floppy >machines. I've listened to them scream at us a month later when >they find out that they can't run anything on their machine >without a hard disk. And that, in a nutshell, is why I don't >want to sell 2-floppy systems. But I already have a hard drive, so I can run anything I want. (I'm already running System 7.0 beta off my hard drive and an old two-floppy SE.) If I can't move up to an LC without having to buy a hard drive I don't want nor need nor have the money for, then I won't. It's a shame, though. << Brian >> | Brian S. Kendig \ Macintosh | Engineering, | bskendig | | Computer Engineering |\ Thought | USS Enterprise | @phoenix.Princeton.EDU | Princeton University |_\ Police | -= NCC-1701-D =- | @PUCC.BITNET | "It's not that I don't HAVE the work to *do* -- I don't DO the work I *have*."
tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) (03/20/91)
In article <7304@idunno.Princeton.EDU> bskendig@dry.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes: >In article <1991Mar19.000251.23048@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Todd A. Green) writes: >>My question to you is: why don't you just buy the one floppy LC? > >I wasn't clear enough in my original article: I can't buy either the >one-floppy LC _or_ the two-floppy LC. The only one available to me is >the LC with one floppy and a hard drive. > >Sorry 'bout that! > > << Brian >> Brian, Ooops, you're right. You can't even buy the ONE floppy system. IMO, that is just ridiculous. Would anyone from Apple care to please inform the REST of us why you must subject us to buying a hard drive? This just goes to reinforce my previous beliefs that while Apple might make some of the best machines, their marketing will end up killing them. Todd ============================================================================== Todd A. Green "<_CyberWolf_>" ---> Pascal <- tagreen@ucs.indiana.edu Unix Systems Administration ---> Unix <--- tagreen@silver.ucs.indiana.edu Macintosh Systems Administration ---> VMS <---- tagreen@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu WCC Office:136.04 phone:855-0949 ---> C <------ tagreen@lothario.ucs.indiana "Friends don't let friends ---> Mac <---- tagreen@iubacs.BITNET Use DOS" - Scott Ostrander ---> SunOS <-- tagreen@lykos (FTP only) ==============================================================================
kpmiller@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Kent P Miller) (03/20/91)
I thought I'd add my experiences/opinion to this thread. Here at Oklahoma University, they wouldn't sell me the 2 floppy LC. They said it was for institutional purchase only. I think that if you find a computer store selling them, they are probably not following Apple's edu rules strictly. I think they should have let the 2 floppy for purchase, but then you will always have the cheap-os that will try to run off two floppies. When they finally get frustrated at the speed, they conclude not that they should have bought the hard drive, but that the Macintosh sucks. Sort of reminds me of the Monty Python thing with the logic professor and his wife that when given the two facts of Mackrel (or some fish) are fish and and all fish swim, she concludes that "Mackrel can't fly, or more often, that I don't love her anymore." -- ----------------------- Kent Miller KENT@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu Bitnet -> KENT@uokucsvx