oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) (04/16/91)
Well, I've just taken a peek at Apple's pricing in their upcoming trade-in
offer and must say that I am greatly disappointed. The $800 trade-in for
a FDHD 2/40 SE is *at least* $200 lower than its street price and I have
no doubts I could sell my 4/40 SE for $1250.
What's even worse is that I could upgrade my year-old SE to an SE/30 for
$1250 (a price which has not dropped one cent since I bought my SE!!!!).
However, I were to trade it in and buy an SE/30, I'd get a comparable
machine that has only 3 Meg memory (I'd keep my extra two, since Apple
is only offering $25.00 for 1 Meg SIMMs (ha!)) and it would cost $215
more! The difference is even greater when taxes and such are taken into
account.
OK, quick quiz to see if Apple's marketing department is listening: given
the above, do you think I will
a) Trade my SE in and buy an SE/30?
b) Upgrade my SE to an SE/30?
Answer: Sorry, it was a trick question. I'm not going sink a dime into a
machine that isn't 32-bit clean. It's been asked for before and I shouldn't
have to repeat myself: make the SE->SE/30 upgrade 32-bit clean!!! That's
the direction the Macintosh machines are being pushed, so why not allow
the many, *many* SE owners an upgrade path in that direction? BTW, a
IIsi is out of the question; I couldn't afford even a third party monitor to
put on the box (and I would really be digging in real deep to get just the
box).
I'm not a business student, but it sure looks like, in this respect, Apple is
being a bit negligent in its calculations and practices. Although I am
grateful to Apple for producing such a fine user interface (nicely improved
in System 7), by the time I can afford a decent machine to run it on the
clones will be out and the NeXT will be within reach . . .
Somebody's going to get my money. The way it looks, Apple wants it to
be somebody else.
--------- Doc
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* | --->oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu<--- *
****************** Copyright (c) 1991 by Doc O'Leary ********************norton@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Norton Chia) (04/16/91)
oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) writes: >What's even worse is that I could upgrade my year-old SE to an SE/30 for >$1250 (a price which has not dropped one cent since I bought my SE!!!!). >However, I were to trade it in and buy an SE/30, I'd get a comparable >machine that has only 3 Meg memory (I'd keep my extra two, since Apple ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >is only offering $25.00 for 1 Meg SIMMs (ha!)) and it would cost $215 >more! The difference is even greater when taxes and such are taken into >account. >********************** Signature Block : Version 2.4 ********************* >* | "Please put litter in its place" * >* "Was it love, or was it the idea | ---McDonald's packaging * >* of being in love?" -- PF | Wouldn't that be on the ground? * >* (BTW, which one *is* Pink?) | * >* | --->oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu<--- * >****************** Copyright (c) 1991 by Doc O'Leary ******************** It's been a while since I've seen people who think they know what they're talking about on the net - 3 megs in an SE/30!! Maybe with 512K SIMMs if the SE/30 took them. One meg plus the two left over from your SE? Nahh... IMHO, he probably deserves some other computer. -- <<<< My employers ignore me, I'm on my own when I speak out in public :^( >>>> < Norton Chia | Mail me on norton@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU APPLELINK:AUST0240 > < Micro Support | "There are only 3 types of people in the world: > < Uni of Sydney | Those who can count, and those who can't" >
oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) (04/17/91)
In article <norton.671787228@extro> norton@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Norton Chia) writes: >oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) writes: > >>What's even worse is that I could upgrade my year-old SE to an SE/30 for >>$1250 (a price which has not dropped one cent since I bought my SE!!!!). >>However, I were to trade it in and buy an SE/30, I'd get a comparable >>machine that has only 3 Meg memory (I'd keep my extra two, since Apple >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >It's been a while since I've seen people who think they know what they're >talking about on the net - 3 megs in an SE/30!! Maybe with 512K SIMMs if >the SE/30 took them. One meg plus the two left over from your SE? Nahh... > >IMHO, he probably deserves some other computer. *Sigh* I didn't say I would be using a SE/30 with 3 Meg, I said it would be the SE/30 I would be stuck with. If you want me to fill the other two slots, that would bring the price difference to around $315 more for a machine with just one more Meg. Was that an attempt to justify Apple's trade-in pricing or just a poorly thought-out attempt at a flame? --------- Doc ********************** Signature Block : Version 2.4 ********************* * | "Please put litter in its place" * * "Was it love, or was it the idea | ---McDonald's packaging * * of being in love?" -- PF | Wouldn't that be on the ground? * * (BTW, which one *is* Pink?) | * * | --->oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu<--- * ****************** Copyright (c) 1991 by Doc O'Leary ********************
jas@ISI.EDU (Jeff Sullivan) (04/18/91)
In article <3764@ux.acs.umn.edu> oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) writes: >In article <norton.671787228@extro> norton@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Norton Chia) writes: >>oleary@ux.acs.umn.edu (Doc O'Leary) writes: >> >>>What's even worse is that I could upgrade my year-old SE to an SE/30 for >>>$1250 (a price which has not dropped one cent since I bought my SE!!!!). >>>However, I were to trade it in and buy an SE/30, I'd get a comparable >>>machine that has only 3 Meg memory (I'd keep my extra two, since Apple >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >>It's been a while since I've seen people who think they know what they're >>talking about on the net - 3 megs in an SE/30!! Maybe with 512K SIMMs if >>the SE/30 took them. One meg plus the two left over from your SE? Nahh... >> >>IMHO, he probably deserves some other computer. > >*Sigh* I didn't say I would be using a SE/30 with 3 Meg, I said it would be >the SE/30 I would be stuck with. If you want me to fill the other two slots, >that would bring the price difference to around $315 more for a machine with >just one more Meg. > >Was that an attempt to justify Apple's trade-in pricing or just a poorly >thought-out attempt at a flame? > His point, I think, was that you *can't* have a mac with 3MB. The only possible configurations for 2-bank machines is 1, 2, 4, 5, and 8 (assuming only 256K or 1MB SIMMS). In 1-bank machines (like pluses and SEs and (maybe) SE/30s), the configs are: 1MB 4MB Depending on whether you have 256K or 1MB SIMMS. jas -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey A. Sullivan | Senior Systems Programmer jas@venera.isi.edu | Information Sciences Institute jas@isi.edu | University of Southern California
xdpq8@CCVAX.IASTATE.EDU (04/18/91)
The Possible memory configs for a plus or an SE are 1 2 2.5 or 4 megs For an SE/30 they are 1 2 4 5 or 8 megs... Steve
steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) (04/18/91)
Frankly, I don't give a monkey's twott what the hardware configurations are. HE"S GOT A POINT. (By the way, I upgrade ALL of our universities machines, so stop repeating yourselve's). Apple simply charge TOO MUCH. if it wasn't for copyright, i could sell my mac copy for 1/10 of apples price. These machines are pure profit for apple and not many people notice how little is inside the box, and that excludes quantity buys (and if we have to wait 3 months on a lousy 100 classics, then their quantity buy's would have a powerful effect on quanity prices). Apple have the power to do the right thing. Its obvious that the classic is the lowest priced machine ever released within the mac circle, but the low prices have undercut something bad the second hand value of the remaining mac's. People either have the option of selling their plus for $500 (considering they bought it for $4000 only 3 years back) or keeping it. Se owners are even worse off. the se retailed in AU for an easy $7k for a reasonable HD setup. If they can't upgrade, then they canm either sell at stupid prices or stick with a SLOW (like 128k,512,+ speed). but if apple was original with its low prices, and not just cutting some off here and making it up over there, they would offer there previous, and many loyal users, the option of upgrading to the SE/30. i am looking forward to a reasonable price for our useres to upgrade. Its just a matter of when! steve h D their quanity buy would have to besomething powerful on prices of parts). Once upon a time, apple spent millions getting SMD equipment, so that its user had the best and latest But fo
mart@csri.toronto.edu (Mart Molle) (04/18/91)
steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes: >Apple simply charge TOO MUCH. [cost of parts << price of new machines...] [The new Classic, being cheaper, has killed the resale prices of used Macs. Buyers of $4k Pluses or $7K SEs feel betrayed...] >If they can't upgrade, then they canm either sell at stupid prices or stick >with a SLOW (like 128k,512,+ speed). but if apple was original with its low >prices, and not just cutting some off here and making it up over there, they >would offer there previous, and many loyal users, the option of upgrading >to the SE/30. >i am looking forward to a reasonable price for our useres to upgrade. >Its just a matter of when! I wish people would stop whining about how they are being abused by Apple. First, people said their prices were too high. And when Apple responds by introducing new cheaper models, they say it's killed the resale of their old machines... (Sigh) 1. *Every* computer (Apple or otherwise) depreciates faster than anything this side of a used condom. Why do you think businesses are allowed to depreciate their computer equipment for tax purposes over ~3-4 years, whereas other capital equipment must be done over 10-20 years??? 2. Over the last 3 years, according to SUN's trade-in policy, the SUN 3/60 workstation in my office has lost 90% of its value (closer to 95% if you start from list instead of educational prices....). Furthermore, the SUN 3/280 servers down the hall have *no* trade-in value, and have lost almost 100% of their value according to the prevailing used computer prices in the area (i.e., only the disk drives have any market value -- nobody wants the computer itself at any price). Earlier this decade, we had a DEC VAX 11/780 with all kinds of goodies, total cost: $3/4 million, resale value after 5 years: $5K. In my experience, Apple equipment holds its value *better* than competitive equipment. 3. If you think about it, the reason Apple came out with the Classic, LC, SI, etc., instead of just dropping the price of its existing models (Plus, SE, SE/30, etc.) is that the new designs are SO MUCH CHEAPER TO PRODUCE that it was cheaper for Apple to invest in the DESIGNING the new models, CHANGING their production facilities, and CLEARING OUT the old inventory at a discount than to keep the factory running to turn out an equivalent number of the existing models. Consequently, the COST TO APPLE of producing an "old tech" SE -> SE/30 upgrade is probably greater than the cost of producing an entire "new tech" SI. Why should it be priced substantially below the price of the new machine? Similarly, what do you expect Apple to do with the used machines (boards) you trade in? They cannot reuse the parts in the production of new machines because of technical (since the designs are different) and moral (remember when Chrysler got in trouble with the US government for selling "used" cars as "new"??) issues. They might put the machines into their pool of spare parts they use for component-swap level repairs, but how many spare Pluses do they need sitting in their warehouses? They might offer them for sale (but would have to wholesale them at substantially lower costs than their new models to get any takers), or even give them away to charitable organization -- but how much "good will" do you think they can afford? I wish computer equipment of all kinds did not lose its value as fast as it does. However, this is a fact of life. Plan your equipment purchases accordingly. Mart L. Molle Computer Systems Research Institute University of Toronto Toronto Canada M5S 1A4 (416)978-4928
rsfinn@CONCERTO.LCS.MIT.EDU (Russell S. Finn) (04/20/91)
In article <steveh.671982370@tasman>, steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes a number of things that managed to set my flame bit. Don't take it personally, but: |> Apple simply charge TOO MUCH. if it wasn't for copyright, i could |> sell my mac copy for 1/10 of apples price. These machines are pure |> profit for apple and not many people notice how little is inside |> the box, ... Oh, please. If it wasn't for copyright, I could make a hundred cassette tapes of <insert your favorite artist here>'s latest album, and sell them for $3.00 apiece; it only costs $2.00 to buy blank tapes, right? When you buy a record, you're buying more than the tape/vinyl/CD; you're paying for the music recorded on it. When you buy a Macintosh, you're buying more than a collection of silicon; you're buying the software in the ROM that makes it a Macintosh -- software that took smart programmers years to develop. Why do you think you have some basic right to copy that work? I understand Apple has had over 250 people working on System 7.0; since they do practically give that away, how do you think those people get paid? |> Its obvious that the classic is the lowest priced machine ever |> released within the mac circle, but the low prices have undercut |> something bad the second hand value of the remaining mac's. People |> either have the option of selling their plus for $500 (considering |> they bought it for $4000 only 3 years back) or keeping it. Se |> owners are even worse off. the se retailed in AU for an easy $7k |> for a reasonable HD setup. Well, you can't have it both ways. Were you one of the people complaining about the lack of an inexpensive Macintosh? And what's wrong with the option of keeping it? The only thing a Classic will do that a Plus won't is read 1.4 MB floppies. Are you implying that people who spent $4000 for a Plus three years ago got ripped off? I spent US$3000 for a Plus five years ago, and I got my money's worth of use out of it before I sold it last November and bought a IIsi. |> If they can't upgrade, then they canm either sell at stupid prices |> or stick with a SLOW (like 128k,512,+ speed). but if apple was |> original with its low prices, and not just cutting some off here |> and making it up over there, they would offer there previous, and |> many loyal users, the option of upgrading to the SE/30. 1) The Classic is exactly as slow as the Plus. 2) SE owners *can* upgrade to an SE/30, with a board swap; Plus owners can upgrade the way I did, by selling their old system. |> i am looking forward to a reasonable price for our useres to |> upgrade. Its just a matter of when! Have you considered finding out how many of your users actually need to upgrade? (For that matter, have you considered donating your old equipment to a school or charitable organization, and taking the tax writeoff?)
gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Don Gillies) (04/23/91)
Apple's trade-in offer is a pathetic ripoff. Here at the UI, some cunning students went to the student union, where the trade-in program was being run. They stood outside the door and offered CASH to those people who were there to trade in their computers. These students got some really great bargains on macintosh computers. Apple's trade-in program was exposed as a ripoff. So what did Apple do? They called the campus police to have these student "troublemakers" thrown out of the building. Don Gillies | University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign gillies@cs.uiuc.edu | Digital Computer Lab, 1304 W. Springfield, Urbana IL ---------------------+------------------------------------------------------ "WAR! UGH! ... What is it GOOD FOR? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!" - the song "WAR" by Edwin Starr, circa 1971 --
steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) (04/26/91)
Hmmmm, there are some people who have decided to avoid the obvious. That is time... The prices of components have come down something bad. Every tom dick and Harry can have a chip made for good price. And apple have recovered a million times over what they spent on the finder and System programming. As for Rom, they have made little additions, just making their programs more economical for speed and minor alterations for long word software. (But yes, it is advanced stuff, and todays valu for it is priceless). Apple are buying chips at very good prices, thay are actually make a similar profit to what they did when the plus was being sold for $4000+. As to donations of old equipment, we actually send them off to our engineering dept, where they are used there for experiments, or they are sold for charm.. SUN's ay' well, we buy rather stupid ammounts of these units, as with most people who can afford these units. They charge, the average stupid price, and we pay, because like most places who buy them, thay have stupid ammounts to spend. I don't give half a oodle to what is costs to fix a sun, as long as we get it fixed, even if it means replacing the entire $35k server. Its a industrial piece of equipment. (and don't tell me the average high school hacker kid has a spark station at home on his coffee table), like mac's are. Its the students where i get my feed back from. The idiots that work in the hot dog house all weekend to make a miserable $100 bucks. It these people that have become dependent on apple, as apple have made them selve's at home in most universities. certainly they have use to lab machines but some cannot wait on a 2 week waiting list, just to work 8 horrible hours non-stop on a mac, just because they got it. So they lash out and buy one. But before they know it, we (the Uni) upgrade all our machines, and use better software, which they cannot use due to their old machine. Wow, do i get hasseled over this or what. I hear enough excuses to deck apple in a day, than what i have even thought i would hear in 10 years. Its just the way the bickie breaks! steve h Systems engineer (SUN&APPLE) University Of Tasmania PS. My apple history goes back as far as when woz was shipping the suitcase ap1 model. Things were real HOT then, But it still makes me wonder what the company would be like if Steve & Steve were still at the reigns today.....