Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) (05/20/91)
At the risk of starting a flame war, I'd like to question why there's such
a flap over "32-bit clean" ROM's at the moment.
I only ask this because 32-bit mode seems vastly overhyped to me. I run a
IIci with 8Mb of (real) RAM. I still run in 24-bit mode because (i) 32-bit mode
may introduce compatability problems, and (ii) 13 Mb of virtual is "enough":
enough for almost anything I could conceivably run; even enough for Mathematica.
It seems that, until 4Mb SIMMs become more reasonably priced,* there will be
no macs out there with more than 8Mb real RAM. Since virtual memory is not
supposed to be more than double real, it would seem that the 13 or 14 Mb
limit imposed by 24-bit mode can handle existing hardware adequately.
So all you netters out there who have been baying and woofing for 32-bit
clean ROMs, tell me one thing: what would you do with 32-bits if you got them?
* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have
to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb
for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs?
DISCLAIMER: I'm not questioning whether Apple is morally or legally obligated
to give you 32-bits; I'm only asking why you want it.
* Origin: mingo@well.sf.ca.us mingo@cup.portal.com (1:109/421.4218)kaufman@neon.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) (05/20/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: > At the risk of starting a flame war, I'd like to question why there's such >a flap over "32-bit clean" ROM's at the moment. > It seems that, until 4Mb SIMMs become more reasonably priced,* there will be >no macs out there with more than 8Mb real RAM. Since virtual memory is not >supposed to be more than double real, it would seem that the 13 or 14 Mb >limit imposed by 24-bit mode can handle existing hardware adequately. I know lots of Macs (IIfx) that have 20MB of real RAM, 4x4MB + 4x1MB > So all you netters out there who have been baying and woofing for 32-bit >clean ROMs, tell me one thing: what would you do with 32-bits if you got them? Run big compiles. (How big, you ask? well, I run one now that requires me to switch to Finder to complete the link on an 8MB machine) >* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have >to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb >for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? You have wrong prices. 4MB SIMMs are $800 for A SET OF FOUR, or $200 each. >DISCLAIMER: I'm not questioning whether Apple is morally or legally obligated >to give you 32-bits; I'm only asking why you want it. Try editing 32-bit photographic images. Marc Kaufman (kaufman@Neon.stanford.edu)
sjhg9320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Idiot Savant ) (05/20/91)
Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: (Stuff Deleted...) > At the risk of starting a flame war, I'd like to question why there's such >a flap over "32-bit clean" ROM's at the moment. (More Stuff Deleted...) >* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have >to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb >for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? Try running an AppleShare server, a QuickMail server, a Network Manager or Two, and a few Gatorboxes, StarConnectors, and Fastpaths and you're looking at a machine that uses 4 Meg SIMMS, which are currently priced < $160 each. Managing a network of Personal Computers demands loads of memory. However, I do see your point- at the present moment, running Excel, Word, MacDraw II, Hypercard, DeltaGraph, and System 7.0 simulatneously only takes 10 Megs. Most personal and professional users will never slam into the memory limits imposed by 24-bit addressing for at least another 18 months, maybe longer. In most cases, the beef is with Apple's claims, not an actual need. -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Internet: scott@scotty.life.uiuc.edu AppleLink: ISware ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ireland@ac.dal.ca (05/20/91)
Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes:> > > * Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have > to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb > for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? > > DISCLAIMER: I'm not questioning whether Apple is morally or legally obligated > to give you 32-bits; I'm only asking why you want it. > > > * Origin: mingo@well.sf.ca.us mingo@cup.portal.com (1:109/421.4218) Chip Merchant is selling 4mb SIMMS for $159. Keith
weiss@mott.seas.ucla.edu (Michael Weiss) (05/20/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: >DISCLAIMER: I'm not questioning whether Apple is morally or legally obligated >to give you 32-bits; I'm only asking why you want it. The reason that we want it is simply this: we want our machines to remain viable as long as possible. Clearly, looking at all past trends, the need for more RAM will always be there, and will increase as time passes. Obviously, then, it is necessary to be able to access well over 16MB of RAM when you buy the machine. Well, not necessary, but certainly a deciding factor. Let me ask you a question. Would you want to buy a computer that you knew would be obsolete next week? Of course not. Next year? Probably still not. The fact is, though, that each person has in his own mind how long he expects his computer to remain "unobsolete". Finding out that your maximum memory capacity is 1/10 of what you thought it was is sort of like suddenly finding out that your computer has a shorter life-span, which in turn means greater costs and a lower value. Do you see what I'm driving at? It isn't necessarily needed now, but for certain it will be needed eventually, and it would be really nice to know that it would be available soon. That's one of the things that ultimately killed 8-bit machines. They couldn't access more than 64K of RAM (without bank switching). It will ultimately kill 24-bit machines, too. -- \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / - Michael Weiss weiss@watson.seas.ucla.edu | School of Engineering and - - izzydp5@oac.ucla.edu | Applied Science, UCLA - / | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \
lrm3@ellis.uchicago.edu (Lawrence Reed Miller) (05/20/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: >may introduce compatability problems, and (ii) 13 Mb of virtual is "enough": >enough for almost anything I could conceivably run; even enough for Mathematica. [stuff deleted] > > So all you netters out there who have been baying and woofing for 32-bit >clean ROMs, tell me one thing: what would you do with 32-bits if you got them? One application where you need gobs & gobs of RAM is in programming scientific computer simualtions. Often you need to have HUGE arrays of numbers, etc., and even with clever packing schemes you still as much memory as you can get. You may not need 20 or 32 MB RAM for what _you_ are doing, but I think that there are lots of us who would benefit greatly if we could actually use all of the RAM Apple told us our machines could address. Numerical simulations can be real memory hogs. Ever tried animating full screen 8-bit color graphics with programs like Spyglass? There are some applications for which you _need_ lots of RAM. If you have 3 cards in a IIcx, you can only have 11 MB of memory. Oooh. A whole 3 MB more than I could under system 6. I am not impressed. What a waste of a perfectly good 68030. The point is, Apple shipped machines which could not perform as specified in the manuals & adds. They provided the machines with a slot which could fix the problem. They advertized the slot. Now they seem to be refusing to fix the problem, even though most people are willing to _pay_ for a ROM upgrade. We (or at least I) want a solution from Apple, not a 3rd party vendor. This way we will know that our machines will continue to function in the future. Say, my IIcx is under AppleCare. Do you suppose my dealer will "fix" this "defect"? [probably not] Lawrence Miller
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) (05/20/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: > > At the risk of starting a flame war, I'd like to question why there's such >a flap over "32-bit clean" ROM's at the moment. > >* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have >to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb >for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? Actually there are quite a few people out there with 4MB SIMMs in their machines. I know of a number of them locally. Of course, Newer Technologies has announced the limited availability of 16 MEG SIMMs. Since the parts are a bit scarce, they are priced in the 'premium' category: $7,500 per SIMM! And of course you need four at a time. And 32-bit clean ROMs. And a LOT of extra income :-) -- | Paul E. Jacoby, 3M Company | | | Maplewood, MN 55144-1000 | Parachuting? Why jump out of a | | => pejacoby@3m.com | perfectly good airplane? | | (612) 737-3211 | |
awessels@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allen Wessels) (05/20/91)
In article <1991May20.020440.23001@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> sjhg9320@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Idiot Savant ) writes: >However, I do see your point- at the present moment, running Excel, Word, >MacDraw II, Hypercard, DeltaGraph, and System 7.0 simulatneously only takes >10 Megs. Most personal and professional users will never slam into the memory >limits imposed by 24-bit addressing for at least another 18 months, maybe >longer. Part of the reason people won't run into those limits is that the limits are there. I have a bunch of DAs (DAs=applications under 7.0) and little utilities that I would like to keep open under 7.0, and if I ran 7.0 with the apps you mention (and I would run more since I do net admin too), I could easily surpass 14 meg. Even without net admin, using newer 7.0-aware apps will almost certainly take people close to the 24 bit limit, and we haven't even dealt with color and animation software users. With 7.0, "everything is an application" is supposed to the be rule (that of course has exceptions.) While you can launch a bunch of programs in a given amount of space, that isn't the only impact on memory used. I've noticed that after a substantial amount of use time, the amount of memory used by the System grows. I knew that when I bought my SE and later the upgrade to the SE/30 that I wouldn't be using all the potential of my machine, but I expected that I would be able to use those features when I needed them. Even if only 1% of the owners of "dirty-ROM" machines need the marketed capabilities of their machine, that leaves thousands of people in the lurch. The situation demands an Apple answer.
bmug@garnet.berkeley.edu (BMUG) (05/20/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: (much deleted) > It seems that, until 4Mb SIMMs become more reasonably priced,* > >* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have >to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb >for $3200. > In fact, 4Mb SIMMs can be had for about $180 from a number of vendors (the Chip Merchant is one that comes to mind, Technology Works another), bringing the total cost of 16 megs onboard to about $720. In the case of virtual memory, I'd rather be running from RAM than from ersatz RAM (the latter of which slows down operations too damn much for my taste). John Heckendorn -- /\ BMUG ARPA: bmug@garnet.berkeley.EDU A__A 1442A Walnut St., #62 BITNET: bmug@ucbgarne |()| Berkeley, CA 94709 Phone: (415) 549-2684 | |
paul@taniwha.UUCP (Paul Campbell) (05/20/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: > > So all you netters out there who have been baying and woofing for 32-bit >clean ROMs, tell me one thing: what would you do with 32-bits if you got them? > In my case I want to run big Verilog models one them (Verilog is a hardware modelling language) -in this case big means 30-40Mb of REAL RAM - I don't care about virtual for this application, I want to be able to build models for entire boards, chips and all, without having to buy Suns to run on (after all Mac hardware should be designed on Macs not other machines ...). Whey on Mac IIs - well I have a number of them, I want to stick them in a corner and run them for a month, I have one 'ci - I want to use that for my productivity (ie so I can get more work done in the mean time). Why do I want an Apple product rather than one from Connetix? Because it's system software and I know from experience that anyone selling system software for the Mac is in for a lot of trouble, you have to track Apple's every move and maybe release new versions for every new system release Apple brings out. Paul -- Paul Campbell UUCP: ..!mtxinu!taniwha!paul AppleLink: CAMPBELL.P My son is now 2 months old, in that time he has doubled his weight, if he does this every 2 months for the next year he will weigh over 300lbs.
danno@css.itd.umich.edu (Daniel T. Pritts) (05/21/91)
In article <1991May20.142911.22485@mmm.serc.3m.com> pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) writes: >16 MEG SIMMs. Since the parts are a bit scarce, they are priced in the >'premium' category: > > > $7,500 per SIMM! > > >And of course you need four at a time. And 32-bit clean ROMs. And a >LOT of extra income :-) > Couldn't you just wire up something that plugs into the SIMM slots and goes to a bunch of SIMMs in an expansion slot (for somewhere to put them, and a power supply) or just an external enclosure? For a BUNCH less?
chad@oscar.cs.byu.edu (Chad) (05/21/91)
-- In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet>, Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: |> It seems that, until 4Mb SIMMs become more reasonably priced,* |>there will be |>no macs out there with more than 8Mb real RAM. Since virtual memory |>is not |>supposed to be more than double real, it would seem that the 13 or 14 |>Mb |>limit imposed by 24-bit mode can handle existing hardware adequately. ... |>* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have |>to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb |>for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? |> Uhh, 4 meg simms are about $165-185 now. Look in MacWeek! I justbought 2 of them for my LC which now runs 10 meg RAM. ************************************************************* Chad Leigh Brigham Young University / on leave from DEC chad@yvax.byu.edu / chad@norge.enet.dec.com *************************************************************
kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) (05/21/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: >* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have >to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb >for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? I've seen 4mb simms adverstised in the $200 range. Considering that 1mb simms are in the $50 range, that makes them roughly equivalent in cost per mb. 4mb simms are cheap enough now that I would put 16mb in my SE/30 today if only the darn thing would use it. -- Stephen Kurtzman | "love is a minor chord; love is a mental ward;" kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu | love is a drawn sword; love is its own reward." | -- Kate, Anna, & Jane McGarrigle
figmo@eris.berkeley.edu (Lynn Gold) (05/22/91)
In article <33034@usc> kurtzman@pollux.usc.edu (Stephen Kurtzman) writes: >In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: > >>* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have >>to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb >>for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? > >I've seen 4mb simms adverstised in the $200 range. Considering that 1mb >simms are in the $50 range, that makes them roughly equivalent in cost >per mb. 4mb simms are cheap enough now that I would put 16mb in my >SE/30 today if only the darn thing would use it. I DID. I even bought mine from the Chip Merchant (the $159/ea folks). NOW I'm waiting to be able to address the rest of my 16k. --Lynn -- ARPA: figmo@eris.Berkeley.Edu UUCP: ...!eris.Berkeley.Edu!figmo QUOTE OF THE MONTH: (asked to RMS at a free software conference at NASA) "Have you ever used any free software word processors?
tgoose@eng.umd.edu (Jason Garms) (05/23/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet>, Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: > > At the risk of starting a flame war, I'd like to question why there's such > a flap over "32-bit clean" ROM's at the moment. [stuff deleted] > * Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have > to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb > for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? [more stuff deleted] Currently you can buy 4MB SIMMs for about $225 each. -- Jason Garms tgoose@eng.umd.edu
ph@ssd.kodak.com (Pete Hoch) (05/24/91)
In article <674696625.0@blkcat.FidoNet> Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) writes: >* Currently, 4Mb SIMMs go for about $800 each; on 32-bit machines, SIMMs have >to be matched in banks of four, so the minimum 4Mb SIMM configuration is 16Mb >for $3200. Does *anyone* out there have a Mac with 4Mb SIMMs? It is clear that you have not priced 4Mb SIMMs in a while. The going rate is more like $250 tops. There are several places where you can get 4-4Mb SIMMs for < $1000. Also I know three people with 20 Mb Macs. I think in the next 6 months this will become a wide spred thing. One question. I have 20 meg in my Mac IIfx however under system 7 I can only use 8Mb in 24-bit mode. I thought I would get 13-16Mb. Does anyone have an idea what is wrong? Thanks, Pete -- Pete Hoch | ..somewhere..!kodak!ssd!bashow!ph ..or.. Color Systems ISPD. 3/65/RL | ph@ekcolorlink.ssd.kodak.com ..or.. Eastman Kodak Co. | ph@bashow.ssd.kodak.com Rochester, NY 14650-1805 | 716-722-3285
anders@verity.com (Anders Wallgren) (05/24/91)
In article <1991May23.211530.21503@ssd.kodak.com>, ph@ssd (Pete Hoch) writes: >One question. I have 20 meg in my Mac IIfx however under system 7 I can >only use 8Mb in 24-bit mode. I thought I would get 13-16Mb. Does anyone >have an idea what is wrong? Well, if you turn on virtual memory you can get more, but I'm not sure if you get it from backup storage or from extra ram. Anyone know if 24-bit VM uses real memory beyond 8Mb? anders