raymond@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (R P Wilson ) (05/21/91)
I wish to purchase a printer and have narrowed the choices down to a StyleWriter and a DeskWriter. With HPs reduction in the price of the DeskWriter to a level similar to that of the StyleWriter the choice is not so simple now. Given equivalent cost for these machines which would be the better one to buy? Is 360 dpi look much different from 300? Just how much faster is the Deskwriter? How do their useful lifetimes compare? With the paper tray etc on the StyleWriter how much smaller is it than the DeskWriter (which has these things 'built in')? Thanks for any help, Raymond. -- Raymond Wilson. email: raymond@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz snail: c/- Computer Science Department, University of Canterbury, New Zealand.
kpottie@icarus.cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Pottie Karl) (05/22/91)
>Is 360 dpi look much different from 300? Because the ink on both printers tends to spread out a bit, it is very difficult to see any difference. >Just how much faster is the Deskwriter? The deskwriter is typically 4 to 5 times faster than a Stylewriter >How do their useful lifetimes compare? The Stylewriter has a MTBF of 5000 hours, the Deskwriter has a MFBF of 20000 h >With the paper tray etc on the StyleWriter how much smaller is it than the >DeskWriter (which has these things 'built in')? Stylewriter => 50 pages Deskwriter => 100 pages
danno@css.itd.umich.edu (Daniel T. Pritts) (05/23/91)
In article <1991May21.214337.794@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> raymond@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (R P Wilson ) writes: >Is 360 dpi look much different from 300? >Just how much faster is the Deskwriter? >How do their useful lifetimes compare? >With the paper tray etc on the StyleWriter how much smaller is it than the >DeskWriter (which has these things 'built in')? For text, 360 vs. 300 dpi doesn't matter much. Although i did notice that 6 pt was legible at 360dpi but not at 300. The deskwriter is two to three times as fast. I printed a 3pg MS Word document, times 12pt with a headline, on a classic. Deskwriter: 3:30 Stylewriter: 10:00 This is the most real-world of my tests. The DW is just SO much faster. I did several tests, the results were similar. a 36-page pagemaker doc took 49 mins on the SW but 29 on the DW. Far as we know, the lifetimes are about the same. Of course the apple printer is brand new, so if they all turn 1yr old and croak, this could be a problem. Haven't heard of any problem with HP. The Stylewriter with its dopey flimsy crappy little paper tray opened up still takes only about 1/2 to 2/3 the desk space of the DW. In summary: Go with the DeskWriter. You won't grow old waiting for output. The ink doesn't smear as badly. The ink cartridges are refillable (not recommended by HP but it works) while the SW's aren't. It's an easy choice unless you just can't afford the desk space (I'd buy a table for my DW before buying a SW).
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (05/23/91)
In article <3531@n-kulcs.cs.kuleuven.ac.be> kpottie@icarus.cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Pottie Karl) writes: >>Is 360 dpi look much different from 300? > >Because the ink on both printers tends to spread out a bit, it is >very difficult to see any difference. If you get good paper ($$!), you can tell the difference. Also, 72dpi bitmap scaling works bettwe with 360dpi. The main tradeoff I see is speed vs space. The deskwriter is faster, the StyleWriter portable. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) (05/23/91)
raymond@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (R P Wilson ) writes:
RP> Does 360 dpi look much different from 300?
It looks better, but not dramatically better. The choice of paper has a
larger affect on appearance than 300 vs. 360 dpi.
RP> Just how much faster is the Deskwriter?
Much. My DW does a page in 30-40 secs (normal text, running off a IIci);
a SW would take 90-120 seconds to do the same thing.
RP> How do their useful lifetimes compare?
My DW is still going strong after eighteen months. The SW is a little new to
measure its lifetime.
RP> With the paper tray etc on the StyleWriter how much smaller is it than the
RP> DeskWriter (which has these things 'built in')?
It's still smaller even with the tray folded out. And you can fold the tray
up when you're not using it, making it *much* smaller.
* Origin: mingo@well.sf.ca.us mingo@cup.portal.com (1:109/421.4218)warden@gradient.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Warden) (05/23/91)
danno@css.itd.umich.edu (Daniel T. Pritts) writes >>The deskwriter is two to three times as fast. I printed a 3pg MS Word >>document, times 12pt with a headline, on a classic. >> Deskwriter: 3:30 ^^^^^^^ >> Stylewriter: 10:00 >>This is the most real-world of my tests. The DW is just SO much faster. >>I did several tests, the results were similar. a 36-page pagemaker >>doc took 49 mins on the SW but 29 on the DW. I disagree. Note the use of a Classic. The speed of the StyleWriter is greatly dependent on the processor's speed. I just purchased a SW and use it at home with my IIci. I too printed a 3pg MS word document in times 12pt with a bold headline. The time was exactly 3:37 minutes. Similar tests with graphics and multiple fonts were approximately equivalent in speed (although I do not have a DW to compare against). >>Far as we know, the lifetimes are about the same. Of course the apple >>printer is brand new, so if they all turn 1yr old and croak, this could >>be a problem. Haven't heard of any problem with HP. Good point. >>The Stylewriter with its dopey flimsy crappy little paper tray opened >>up still takes only about 1/2 to 2/3 the desk space of the DW. Once again I disagree. The SW's small size is very nice whenever I wish to tidy up my workspace. With it's paper tray fully extended, it easily fits atop my IIci which is off to the side of the monitor. It is not as imposing as as a DeskWriter is. >>In summary: Go with the DeskWriter. You won't grow old waiting for >>output. The ink doesn't smear as badly. The ink cartridges are refillable >>(not recommended by HP but it works) while the SW's aren't. >>It's an easy choice unless you just can't afford the desk space (I'd >>buy a table for my DW before buying a SW). I am very pleased with my StyleWriter. It fits my personal need very well, but if you frequently pump out 20pg papers then the DeskWriter will be speeder (but only with slower Macs, faster Macs result in comparable speeds). Another note, the SW cost me $365 at the educational price (including cables, software, etc..) while the DW would have run me $568 (cables not included) at the same dealer with the same educational price. The DW does not warrent the additional $200 if you ask me. ************************************************************************** ** Robert Warden warden@grad1.cis.upenn.edu ** ** University of Pennsylvania @gradient.cis.upenn.edu ** ** ** ** "Even a broken clock tells the time correctly twice a day" ** ** - Withnail & I ** **************************************************************************
raymond@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva) (05/23/91)
From article <43645@netnews.upenn.edu>, by warden@gradient.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Warden): > danno@css.itd.umich.edu (Daniel T. Pritts) writes >>>The deskwriter is two to three times as fast. I printed a 3pg MS Word >>>document, times 12pt with a headline, on a classic. >>> Deskwriter: 3:30 ^^^^^^^ >>> Stylewriter: 10:00 > too printed a 3pg MS word > document in times 12pt with a bold headline. The time was exactly > 3:37 minutes. But how long would it have taken the DW? I believe the deskwriters speed is also dependent on the speed of the CPU. (Or am I mistaken - anyway I have an LC so the extra speed of the DW is worth it). > The SW's small size is very nice whenever I wish to tidy up my workspace. It sure is small! I didn't realise quite how small until I had a look at one this morning. Although I do think that with the paper tray and sheet feeder the SW is similar in size to the DW (although nowhere hear as bulky) Raymond. -- Raymond Wilson. email: raymond@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz snail: c/- Computer Science Department, University of Canterbury, New Zealand.
neff@hp-vcd.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (05/24/91)
>I am very pleased with my StyleWriter. It fits my personal need very >well, but if you frequently pump out 20pg papers then the DeskWriter >will be speeder (but only with slower Macs, faster Macs result >in comparable speeds). .... I would suggest you have it backwards. On slower Macs, the driver not the printer is the bottleneck and the StyleWriter speed is closer to the DeskWriter speed. On faster Macs, the printer mechanism, not the driver speed limits the speed of the printer. The StyleWriter is a 1/2 page per minute "engine" in letter quality, and 1 page per minite "engine" in draft. It can go no faster even on the fastest Mac. The DeskWriter is a 1 to 2 page per minute "engine" in letter quality and 2 to 3 page per minute "engine" in draft. On the average, the DeskWriter will be twice the speed as a StyleWriter -- especially on the fastest Macs. Believe me, we have done plenty of speed comparisons here :-). I have also read a variety of printer reviews that agree with these numbers. The DeskWriter also does a better job with grey scales, and the StyleWriter always goes bi-directionally which results in misregistration. In the StyleWriter review in "The Active Window", May, 1991 (BMUG) the reviewer noticed both of these problems with the StyleWriter. The misregistration results in visible bands in grey shaded areas on "jagies" in multiple pass (taller) fonts and solid vertical lines. That review's benchmarks also showed the 2 to 1 print speed advantage of the DeskWriter, and this review used a faster Mac (SE/30). The StyleWriter can't print as far down on a page as the DeskWriter or the LaserWriter LS. I have seen StyleWriter output where the bottom half of the last line of text on the page was truncated. The same document printed fine to a DeskWriter and LaserWriter LS. The DeskWriter does a pretty good job of keeping up with the LaserWriter LS as well. The LaserWriter eventually beats a DeskWriter on lengthy simple text print outs, the the DeskWriter is faster for short text memos and complicated desktop publishing or graphics output actually is often faster on a DeskWriter. The LaserWriter LS has better print quality than either the StyleWriter or the DeskWriter in my opinion -- although on the best papers both of the inkjets are impressive. Unfortunately, on less than the best papers neither inkjet is close to laser printers in quality. I know I don't have a student's budget, but in my opinion the less obvious question is should I buy a DeskWriter over a LaserWriter LS (or some other low end laser printer). I don't think the StyleWriter even comes close to the DeskWriter in price/performance now that the DeskWriter has been reduced in price. The laser printers aren't really much faster than the DeskWriter, and on the average speed will probably be pretty close, but the price per page for output and the print quality is clearly better for the laser printers -- especially across a wider range of paper types. As for the price, DeskWriters should be readily available for under $500. Of course Apple does have some really good educational discounts for their stuff. As for print quality, on high quality bond paper both printers have really good output, but the StyleWriter is generally more particular about paper type and I think you will find DeskWriter has better print quality on common copy papers. Try a variety of paper types on both printers before you decide which one has the better print quality overall. There are some cheap kinds of copy papers that give really good output with a DeskWriter. I'm not sure to what extent this is true with the StyleWriter. As for the 360 DPI StyleWriter giving a better job with 72 DPI bitmaps, the DeskWriter supports "precision bitmaps" where 72 dpi bitmaps are scaled to 288 DPI and all outline fonts are shrunk by 4% to make the text and graphics be the proper relative size. I have never seen any problems when using this mode with 72DPI bitmaps. On the other hand, the StyleWriter doesn't do as good a job with 300 DPI bitmaps as the DeskWriter since the scaling process necessarily will introduce some artifacts (just like 72DPI to 300DPI introduces artifacts). Granted in the Mac world there are more 72DPI bitmaps than 300DPI bitmaps. As for usage limits, the DeskWriter is rated at 60,000 pages. I have not been able to find a spec for the StyleWriter, and Apple doesn't seem to want to give out this number, but I have heard (unfortunately second or third hand) that the BubbleJet 10E has a rated life of about 26,000 pages. Of course since the DeskWriter is twice as fast, the BJ/StyleWriter would last "just as long" since it would take the BJ/StyleWriter about the same total time to print 26,000 pages as the DeskWriter would take to print the 60,000 pages :-). I have a hard time believing the 6000 page rated life some people have been throwing out for the StyleWriter, but I do wonder why Apple wont give out this number. Its a standard part of the spec of our printers. You want to know how many hours of use you can expect out of a $1.00 lightbulb. I would think you would want to know how many hours of use you can expect out of a $400 printer. And finally the DeskWriter supports AppleTalk or serial connections. The StyleWriter is serial only. Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM Disclaimer: I am speaking for myself and not HP. I am also about as biased as you can get with respect to the DeskWriter. However I do try to be accurate -- even though I'm biased :-).
danno@css.itd.umich.edu (Daniel T. Pritts) (05/24/91)
In article <43645@netnews.upenn.edu> warden@gradient.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Warden) writes: > > danno@css.itd.umich.edu (Daniel T. Pritts) writes >>>The deskwriter is two to three times as fast. I printed a 3pg MS Word >>>document, times 12pt with a headline, on a classic. >>> Deskwriter: 3:30 ^^^^^^^ >>> Stylewriter: 10:00 > >I disagree. Note the use of a Classic. The speed of the StyleWriter >is greatly dependent on the processor's speed. I just purchased a >SW and use it at home with my IIci. I too printed a 3pg MS word >document in times 12pt with a bold headline. The time was exactly >3:37 minutes. Similar tests with graphics and multiple fonts >were approximately equivalent in speed (although I do not have a >DW to compare against). > Was yours single-spaced, and dense text? How about these figures: 36 pg pagemaker document printed from IIFX (is that fast enough?) stylewriter: 50 min deskwriter: 29 min 1 page word 4.0 doc w/ lots of white space (again on IIfx) stylewriter: 1:10 deskwriter: :40 1 page word 4.0 doc w/ pasted in MacDraw II graphic: stylewriter deskwriter IIfx 1:40 :45 classic 3:50 1:35 1 page MacDraw II document, consisting of shaded boxes and text: stylewriter deskwriter IIfx 3:05 1:10 classic 7:05 2:00 Finally, note that the people most likely to buy cheap printers like the deskwriter and stylewriter are the same people who own classics and SEs. >>>The Stylewriter with its dopey flimsy crappy little paper tray opened >>>up still takes only about 1/2 to 2/3 the desk space of the DW. > >Once again I disagree. The SW's small size is very nice whenever I wish >to tidy up my workspace. With it's paper tray fully extended, it >easily fits atop my IIci which is off to the side of the monitor. It >is not as imposing as as a DeskWriter is. (I fully admitted that the stylewriter is smaller, I even mentioned that I personally would have bought a table to put the deskwriter on if I didn't have the space. No doubt about it, the SW is a lot smaller.) > >>>In summary: Go with the DeskWriter. You won't grow old waiting for >>>output. The ink doesn't smear as badly. The ink cartridges are refillable >>>(not recommended by HP but it works) while the SW's aren't. >>>It's an easy choice unless you just can't afford the desk space (I'd >>>buy a table for my DW before buying a SW). > > >I am very pleased with my StyleWriter. It fits my personal need very ... >in comparable speeds). Another note, the SW cost me $365 at the >educational price (including cables, software, etc..) while the >DW would have run me $568 (cables not included) at the same dealer >with the same educational price. The DW does not warrent the >additional $200 if you ask me. I'm glad you're happy. However, note that HP has just dropped its price. At UM, we now would pay $398 for a SW or $425 for a DW. (both including cables.) I agree that when there was a $200 price difference, there was a niche for both, but now, I would NO WAY buy or recommend the StyleWriter. dan pritts danno@um.cc.umich.edu userdano@umichum (bitnet)
gregpen@crash.cts.com (Greg Penetrante) (05/25/91)
Mr. Neff fails to mention that the StyleWriter comes with a utility that scales 300 DPI TIFFs to the proper 360 DPI WITHOUT Artifacts. Secondly, as a user of BOTH a DeskWriter and StyleWriter, IN THE LONG RUN, I would have to call it even. If you like the DeskWriter's LARGE footprint and non-portability, then go right ahead because you will get good output and speed. On the other hand, since I have designed a battery to power my Style- Writer (albeit a kludge right now) and the printer can fit in smaller spaces, I use the StyleWriter in LAX airport terminals printing out last minute documents with my Mac Portable... No sweat! And since you don't HAVE to use the StyleWriter's paper try or rack, the thing is as slim as a sandwich, but with a wider part at the end because of its base. It still finds in my briefcase just fine, however. But the Mac Portable doesn't ;-) And I can't seem to duplicate the problem where the StyleWriter cuts off a document's lower portion! The Page Setup option limits the size of the page so you WON'T have to see cut-off pages. On the other hand if you print beyond the boundaries of the PageSetup restrictions (like you can in Page- Maker) then you WILL see cutoff pages. Of course I DO love the DeskWriter also because HP's ink is so damn good! No smears when my boss spits on the documents :-). But hey dude, both printers are very good and I cannot see a stuation where you would go wrong with either. (BUT if you are a major procrastinator, the HP will be your friend because it is faster. heh heh) -gregger
seiler@vlsisj.uucp (%) (05/25/91)
I understand that the DeskWriter can not be used with label stock. How about the StyleWriter? Its paper path looks straighter. Bruce Seiler seiler@compas-da.com
smargari@nmsu.edu (Susan Margarit) (05/26/91)
Regarding labels in the Deskwriter, I have a package of Avery labels (#5260) that claims "NOW Runs in HP DeskJet too!". They are primarily laser printer labels. I have not used them yet as I am skeptical and I have had to disassemble a printer before to extract labels from the paper path. It ain't fun. Has anyone used these, and with what degree of success? Jim.
hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) (05/27/91)
In article <SMARGARI.91May25220541@emmy.nmsu.edu> smargari@nmsu.edu (Susan Margarit) writes: >Regarding labels in the Deskwriter, I have a package of Avery labels >(#5260) that claims "NOW Runs in HP DeskJet too!". They are primarily >laser printer labels. I have not used them yet as I am skeptical and I >have had to disassemble a printer before to extract labels from the >paper path. It ain't fun. Has anyone used these, and with what degree >of success? > >Jim. I have used the avery labels (I am not sure of the exact part number) with great succcess, at least as of a year ago when I had a deskwriter. Josh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josh Hodas Home Phone: (215) 222-7112 4223 Pine Street School Office Phone: (215) 898-9514 Philadelphia, PA 19104 New E-Mail Address: hodas@saul.cis.upenn.edu
ken@slhisc.uucp (Ken Stamm) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May21.214337.794@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> raymond@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (R P Wilson ) writes: > >I wish to purchase a printer and have narrowed the choices down to a >StyleWriter and a DeskWriter I have both. I got the stylewriter the day it was introed. I thought the DeskJet/Deskwriter was a neat design when it came out. I think the same of the Stylewriter. 360 DPI is barely noticeably better than 300DPI. I think the type of paper you use will have a greater impact on print quality than the difference in resolution. (Use 25% bond paper in either machine) >Just how much faster is the Deskwriter? The Stylewriter is admittedly slow. Depends on what you're printing. >How do their useful lifetimes compare? Useful lifetimes??? I'll let you know when either mechanism wears out. (next century, perhaps) Your Mac will be obsolete and gone before then. Actually, if you mean ink capacity I haven't emptied a Stylewriter ink cartridge yet, so I can't comment on ink life. I have found both ink cartridges equally available. The Cannon BJ-10 mechanism is catching on. >With the paper tray etc on the StyleWriter how much smaller is it than the >DeskWriter (which has these things 'built in')? Quite a bit less footprint. Bit taller tho. Much more portable than the Deskjet. Good Luck. -- Ken Stamm (uunet.uu.net!slcpi!slhisc!ken) (212)341-3868
derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) (05/29/91)
kpottie@icarus.cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Pottie Karl) writes: >>Just how much faster is the Deskwriter? >The deskwriter is typically 4 to 5 times faster than a Stylewriter This is because the StyleWriter is rather brainless and relies on the CPU to do most of the work. If you hook the StyleWriter up to a fast CPU, the difference in performance is amazing. In fact my recommendation is DeskWriter for a Plus/SE/Classic and StyleWriter for 68030 machines. One distinct advantage to the StyleWriter is the small (very small) footprint. Also, it feeds envelopes VERY well. -- = Enjoy! = = John DeRosa, Motorola, Inc, Cellular Infrastructure Group = = e-mail: motcid!derosaj@uunet.uu.net, n1111@applelink.apple.com = =I do not hold by employer responsible for any information in this message =
kpottie@icarus.cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Pottie Karl) (05/31/91)
>The deskwriter is typically 4 to 5 times faster than a Stylewriter >This is because the StyleWriter is rather brainless and relies on >the CPU to do most of the work. If you hook the StyleWriter up to >a fast CPU, the difference in performance is amazing. In fact >my recommendation is DeskWriter for a Plus/SE/Classic and >StyleWriter for 68030 machines. In fact, when I measured the difference between the Deskwriter and StyleWriter, the Stylewriter was on an SI and the Deskwriter was on and SE/30. So in fact the Stylewriter was hooked to a faster computer. Typical figures for a complex page of text and graphics: Deskwriter : 80 seconds Stylewriter : 347 seconds So even with a fast computer, the Stylewriter is amazingly slow. Even slower than my old Grappler LQ & Epson combination, which printed the same page in 220 seconds. And most people consider the Grappler as being very slow.
Charlie.Mingo@p4218.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Charlie Mingo) (05/31/91)
derosa@motcid.UUCP (John DeRosa) writes: JD> kpottie@icarus.cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Pottie Karl) writes: JD> JD> >>Just how much faster is the Deskwriter? JD> JD> >The deskwriter is typically 4 to 5 times faster than a Stylewriter JD> JD> This is because the StyleWriter is rather brainless and relies on JD> the CPU to do most of the work. If you hook the StyleWriter up to JD> a fast CPU, the difference in performance is amazing. In fact JD> my recommendation is DeskWriter for a Plus/SE/Classic and JD> StyleWriter for 68030 machines. You realize, of course, that the DeskWriter *also* is "rather brainless and relies on the CPU to do most of the work." On faster machines, the SW and DW maintain their relative speed differential. (I know: I run a DW on my IIci.) * Origin: "Up to a point, Lord Copper" -- Waugh (1:109/421.4218)
Charles.E.Dubuque@dartmouth.edu (Charles E. Dubuque) (06/01/91)
In article <3647@n-kulcs.cs.kuleuven.ac.be> kpottie@icarus.cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Pottie Karl) writes: > In fact, when I measured the difference between the Deskwriter and > StyleWriter, the Stylewriter was on an SI and the Deskwriter was on > and SE/30. So in fact the Stylewriter was hooked to a faster computer. ^^^^^^ > Typical figures for a complex page of text and graphics: > Deskwriter : 80 seconds > Stylewriter : 347 seconds You will find that the SE/30, with its FPU and without the overhead of a color display, is a faster machine than the SI. Chuck c.dubuque@dartmouth.edu