chma@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Michael Antolovich) (05/27/91)
Hi, Something I noticed recently :- I reformatted my Quantum 105 (3rd party so I fiddled with Apple's formatter :-). Anyway I was just wondering why my 105Meg HD formats to 102Meg (Max partition size) then shows ~100,000K fress space when empty under System 6.0.7 and then ~98Meg under System 7.0 (yes it goes back to 100,000K when I go back to 6.0.7). I more or less understand the reduction caused by formatting, etc, but why the diff between Sys 7.0 and 6.0.7 ? It's a pity to 'lose' the 7 Megs I could have used to for puting System 7.0 on :-). Michael. -- _______________________________________________________________________________ \ Michael Antolovich in sunny North Queensland (where it's bloody hot!) / \ chma@marlin.jcu.edu.au / \_________________________________________________________________________/
andyp@treehouse.UUCP (Andy Peterman) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May27.081538.9810@marlin.jcu.edu.au> chma@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Michael Antolovich) writes: >Hi, > Something I noticed recently :- I reformatted my Quantum 105 (3rd >party so I fiddled with Apple's formatter :-). Anyway I was just >wondering why my 105Meg HD formats to 102Meg (Max partition size) then >shows ~100,000K fress space when empty under System 6.0.7 and then >~98Meg under System 7.0 (yes it goes back to 100,000K when I go back to >6.0.7). I more or less understand the reduction caused by formatting, >etc, but why the diff between Sys 7.0 and 6.0.7 ? It's a pity to 'lose' >the 7 Megs I could have used to for puting System 7.0 on :-). The Quantum 105 does indeed contain about 105 million bytes. However, since 1K is 1024 bytes, this translates to 102,537.5 K. Also, since 1 Meg is 1024 K, then you really have a disk that is about 100.1 Meg. Then there's some overhead on the disk that you never see. The partition map and driver takes up about 30 to 70 K. For each volume, there's about 10K of information. Then, there's probably about 1 Meg each for the volume extents and catalog trees on each volume (these can grow if you have LOTS of files on the volume). This leaves you with about 100,400K free as viewed by the 6.0.7 Finder or with about 98 Megs as viewed by the 7.0 Finder (which shows large values in Megs). Hope this helps... -- Andy Peterman | Opinions expressed treehouse!andyp@gvgpsa.gvg.tek.com | are definitely those of (916) 273-4569 | my employer!
weiss@mott.seas.ucla.edu (Michael Weiss) (05/28/91)
In article <1991May27.081538.9810@marlin.jcu.edu.au> chma@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Michael Antolovich) writes: >Hi, > Something I noticed recently :- I reformatted my Quantum 105 (3rd >party so I fiddled with Apple's formatter :-). Anyway I was just >wondering why my 105Meg HD formats to 102Meg (Max partition size) then >shows ~100,000K fress space when empty under System 6.0.7 and then >~98Meg under System 7.0 (yes it goes back to 100,000K when I go back to The second part of your question is bound to be a FAQ soon, so I'm posting the response. On Sys7, 1M=1024K, not 1000K. Therefore, 98M=100,000K. The first part is something that I have noticed a lot with Apple's Formatter. For whatever reason, you get more disk space when you use SilverLining or some other non-Apple driver. I don't know why Apple won't use the entire disk. Seems lame to me, but then again Apple has never been known for making the BEST software, just SOME software. That's why 3rd parties were invented :). -- \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / - Michael Weiss weiss@watson.seas.ucla.edu | School of Engineering and - - izzydp5@oac.ucla.edu | Applied Science, UCLA - / | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \
pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) (05/28/91)
In article <2896@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> weiss@mott.seas.ucla.edu (Michael Weiss) writes: > >The first part is something that I have noticed a lot with Apple's Formatter. >For whatever reason, you get more disk space when you use SilverLining or >some other non-Apple driver. I don't know why Apple won't use the entire disk. >Seems lame to me, but then again Apple has never been known for making the >BEST software, just SOME software. That's why 3rd parties were invented :). It seems that Apple likes to leave a bit of 'scratch' space on the far end of the drive. There was a tip posted or published in some magazine about a year ago that detailed how to get rid of this little 'extra' slice of space. Basically, you back up the whole drive. Then boot from the System Tools disk. Start HD Setup and select the target drive. Go into Custom Partitioning. You will see the current partition and a small bit of gray at the top (bottom?) of the partition map. Select the main partition and DELETE it [NOTE: This is FATAL to all data on the disk--think for a second before you do it]. Now add a partition that covers the WHOLE drive. Quit HD Setup, reboot, and start restoring. TWO NOTES: The above is from memory--it's been a while, so do this at your own risk! I'll take no responsibility for your actions, nor your taste in clothes :-) Also, on my SE/30, I regained about 1.5 meg of space on a 40 meg drive. That made the Finder report 41,085K free. -- | Paul E. Jacoby, 3M Company, 3M Center, 235-3F-27 | | Maplewood, MN 55144-1000 .-----------------------------------| | => pejacoby@3m.com | I am _not_ the editor of | | (612) 737-3211 | the Radio Times. |
kent@visix.com (Ken Turner) (05/29/91)
In article <2896@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU>, weiss@mott.seas.ucla.edu (Michael Weiss) writes: |> [stuff deleted...] |> The first part is something that I have noticed a lot with Apple's Formatter. |> For whatever reason, you get more disk space when you use SilverLining or |> some other non-Apple driver. I don't know why Apple won't use the entire disk. |> Seems lame to me, but then again Apple has never been known for making the |> BEST software, just SOME software. That's why 3rd parties were invented :). |> -- Apple has multiple sources for its disk drives. (We all know this, right?) Each manufacturer has a drive in the 40 MB class, for example, but the exact capacity of the drive varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. If you go buy a new Mac with a 40 MB drive and your friend buys a new Mac with a 40 MB drive (but different manufacturer), but his drive turns out to actually have 43 MB, you'd probably feel kind-of gypped (sp?). A simple solution to this is to format all drives to the same capacity. That way, they all look the same to the average user and no one thinks they are getting ripped off. (Yes, this really happens.) Ken Turner Visix Software Inc. kent@visix.com
johnston@oscar.ccm.udel.edu (05/29/91)
In article <1991May28.141229.22787@mmm.serc.3m.com>, pejacoby@mmm.serc.3m.com (Paul E. Jacoby) writes...
Basically, you back up the whole drive. Then boot from the System Tools
disk. Start HD Setup and select the target drive. Go into Custom
Partitioning. You will see the current partition and a small bit of
gray at the top (bottom?) of the partition map. Select the main
partition and DELETE it [NOTE: This is FATAL to all data on the
disk--think for a second before you do it].
Now add a partition that covers the WHOLE drive. Quit HD Setup,
reboot, and start restoring.
If one clicks Partition -> Custom -> Details, you'll see that the
grey area is titled "Apple Free". The size is about 900 K on a
40 meg drive.
My question: does anyone know what is the purpose of setting aside
this space? Is there any reason why one would NOT want to create
a larger than default partition?
Bill (johnston@minnie.me.udel.edu)HKR@psuvm.psu.edu (Ken Rosenberry) (05/30/91)
In article <54870@nigel.ee.udel.edu>, johnston@oscar.ccm.udel.edu says: >My question: does anyone know what is the purpose of setting aside >this space? Is there any reason why one would NOT want to create >a larger than default partition? A likely reason that Apple formats all 40M drives at 40M regardless of the extra space on the disk drive is to accommodate their tape backup program. Ditto for drives of other sizes. If a 'volume backup' is performed, the backup can only be restored to a disk of the same partition size. At PSU, we depend upon volume backups to upgrade our public lab servers from a master server. Because we load SuitCase files from the servers, and because of anomalies with the method SuitCase uses to find SuitCase files, volume backup and restores are useful. If you don't depend upon image backup software, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to use the extra disk space. The 'free space' on my 160M drive allowed me to create a second partition of 14M (using Silver Lining). And unless I'm dreaming, I didn't have to reformat because the original 160M partition was never altered. Ken Rosenberry Internet: hkr@psuvm.psu.edu Senior Systems Programmer BITNET: hkr@psuvm Pennsylvania State University APPLELINK: u0485
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (05/30/91)
In article <1991May27.081538.9810@marlin.jcu.edu.au> chma@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Michael Antolovich) writes: >Hi, > Something I noticed recently :- I reformatted my Quantum 105 (3rd >party so I fiddled with Apple's formatter :-). Anyway I was just >wondering why my 105Meg HD formats to 102Meg (Max partition size) then >shows ~100,000K fress space when empty under System 6.0.7 and then >~98Meg under System 7.0 (yes it goes back to 100,000K when I go back to >6.0.7). I more or less understand the reduction caused by formatting, >etc, but why the diff between Sys 7.0 and 6.0.7 ? It's a pity to 'lose' >the 7 Megs I could have used to for puting System 7.0 on :-). > Michael. I think they've changed the definition. The "old" megabytes were 1,000,000 bytes. The new ones are 1,048,576 (2^20) bytes. A few years back IBM managed a few extra sales because their machines sported 65K of memory, while the competition's machines only had 64K. I think Apple made a PR mistake on this one. -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) I don't speak for my employer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Freedom of speech: 1776-1991. R.I.P. | -------------------------------------------------------------------------
philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (05/31/91)
In article <17795@burdvax.PRC.Unisys.COM>, dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) writes: |> I think they've changed the definition. The "old" megabytes were |> 1,000,000 bytes. The new ones are 1,048,576 (2^20) bytes. |> |> A few years back IBM managed a few extra sales because their machines |> sported 65K of memory, while the competition's machines only had 64K. |> I think Apple made a PR mistake on this one. Megabyte never meant anything but 2^20 bytes in the computing world. If IBM were really doing this, they were indulging in the usual IBM jargon engineering at best, misleading advertizing at worst. -- Philip Machanick philip@pescadero.stanford.edu
tgoose@eng.umd.edu (Jason Garms) (05/31/91)
> The first part is something that I have noticed a lot with Apple's Formatter. > For whatever reason, you get more disk space when you use SilverLining or > some other non-Apple driver. I don't know why Apple won't use the entire disk. > Seems lame to me, but then again Apple has never been known for making the > BEST software, just SOME software. That's why 3rd parties were invented :). > -- > \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / > - Michael Weiss weiss@watson.seas.ucla.edu | School of Engineering and - > - izzydp5@oac.ucla.edu | Applied Science, UCLA - > / | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \ If anyone cares... The historical reason (if I remember correctly) that Apple's formatting software does not use the full potential of the drive goes back to the introduction of the SE's and II's. When Apple first put 20 MEG drives into these machines the software would format them to a little over 20Megs. As was noted on a previous post, Apple likes to switch drive manufacturers a lot. What happened is customers would have their data backed up, their drive would crash and Apple would replace it with a new mechanism (sometimes from a different manufactuer). These new drives couldn't always fit as much information as the original so when the customer tried to unbackup the data, it would no longer fit! Additionally some backup-up software (I believe Apple's Tape Backup software is most notorius) required the volume you backed up to be the exact same size as the volume you restored to. To solve these problems, Apple made the software so that it formatted all the drives a little conservatively. Hope this is informative!!! Jason Garms tgoose@eng.umd.edu
Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr (Patrick Hayes) (06/03/91)
In article <54870@nigel.ee.udel.edu> johnston@oscar.ccm.udel.edu writes: >If one clicks Partition -> Custom -> Details, you'll see that the >grey area is titled "Apple Free". The size is about 900 K on a >40 meg drive. > >My question: does anyone know what is the purpose of setting aside >this space? Is there any reason why one would NOT want to create >a larger than default partition? Yes, I do. There are a few reasons. In no particular order: - It's not often that you can find two hard disk drives with exactly the same capacity because of the differing number of bad blocks. - To make all the disks from different sources (and thus having minor differences in capacity) look the same. - Who out there remembers the Apple 40 Mb tape drive? The backup software from Apple was unable to restore to a volume having a different size than the one from which the backup was done. Blocking the partition size at exactly 40Mb for all apple 40 Mb drives meant that you could backup and restore between them indiscriminately. Using every last sector could put you in the nasty situation of not being to restore to a new drive if the old one crashed... - Apple sells 40Mb drives, not 40.341516... Mb drives. Any extra you may find is just that, extra, but Apple will not, indeed cannot garentee that. What with everyone becoming explicit on demanding exactly what Apple advertises (32bit roms, et al), this becomes a valid choice. Pat -- +-------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Patrick Hayes | EMail : Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr | | BULL CEDIAG | or hayes@bull.fr | | 68, Route de Versailles | Tel : (33 1) 39 02 56 88 | | F-78430 Louveciennes FRANCE | Fax : (33 1) 39 02 47 95 | +-------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+