Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) (06/05/91)
I sure could use some help with a perplexing problem. We have just got in 10 brand new SE/30's at work for use as equipment controllers. Since these machines are going overseas we've learned to open up everything and burn it in for awhile before shipping it out the door. In the process of doing so we've noted some disturbing behavior. These are SE/30's that've been upgraded to 5MB of RAM by Falcon (the sole GSA vendor for Apple h/ware!) and internal 40MB hard drives. Turning on the machines out of the box we got the question mark'd disk instead of booting from the internal HD. After booting from a floppy and having it recognize the HD it would boot from it upon restart. Then, in unpredictable places while running various s/ware the machine would hang with various errors from 'out of memory' to 'bus error' to plain old 'system error'. Sometimes they won't recognize a floppy that's shoved in, sometimes they will. It's all very strange and quite disturbing. I have never had a problem with getting a Mac out of the box and having it fire up just fine. The machines came with pre-formatted HD's running Sys 6.0.7. Any help would be appreciated! * Origin: I hate computers! (1:109/421.916)
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (06/05/91)
In article <676094904.5@blkcat.FidoNet> Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) writes: >I sure could use some help with a perplexing problem. > >These are SE/30's that've been upgraded to 5MB of RAM by Falcon (the sole GSA vendor for Apple h/ware!) and internal 40MB hard drives. > >Turning on the machines out of the box we got the question mark'd disk instead of booting from the internal HD. After booting from a floppy and having it recognize the HD it would boot from it upon restart. Then, in unpredictable places while running va >rious s/ware the machine would hang with various errors from 'out of memory' to 'bus error' to plain old 'system error'. Sometimes they won't recognize a floppy that's shoved in, sometimes they will. > >It's all very strange and quite disturbing. I have never had a problem with getting a Mac out of the box and having it fire up just fine. In the wild guess arena-- Is the RAM the proper speed rating for the SE/30 (I think 120ns is required, but it could be 100ns) -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
tlk@milton.u.washington.edu (Jeremy Norberg) (06/06/91)
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: BB >In article <676094904.5@blkcat.FidoNet> Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) writes: >>I sure could use some help with a perplexing problem. >> >>These are SE/30's that've been upgraded to 5MB of RAM by Falcon (the sole GSA vendor for Apple h/ware!) and internal 40MB hard drives. >> >>Turning on the machines out of the box we got the question mark'd disk instead of booting from the internal HD. After booting from a floppy and having it recognize the HD it would boot from it upon restart. Then, in unpredictable places while running va >>rious s/ware the machine would hang with various errors from 'out of memory' to 'bus error' to plain old 'system error'. Sometimes they won't recognize a floppy that's shoved in, sometimes they will. >> >>It's all very strange and quite disturbing. I have never had a problem with getting a Mac out of the box and having it fire up just fine. >In the wild guess arena-- Is the RAM the proper speed rating for the SE/30 >(I think 120ns is required, but it could be 100ns) >-- >Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu > .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus. The SE/30 as well as everything above it require 100ns chips or better!! Only Plus/Classic can use 120ns SIMMS. -- "The Power to be Your Best" -Apple Computers ------------------------------------------------------------ Jeremy C. Norberg tlk@u.washington.edu
jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) (06/06/91)
In article <1991Jun5.173719.8604@milton.u.washington.edu> tlk@milton.u.washington.edu (Jeremy Norberg) writes: >The SE/30 as well as everything above it require 100ns chips or better!! > >Only Plus/Classic can use 120ns SIMMS. Not correct. The Mac Plus/SE/Classic require 150ns or faster. The Mac II/IIx/SE30/IIcx/LC require 120ns or faster The Mac IIsi requires 100ns or faster The Mac IIci requires 80ns or faster -- John Cavallino | EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago Hospitals | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145 Office of Facilities Management | Chicago, IL 60637 B0 f++ c+ g+ k s+(+) e+ h- pv (qv) | Telephone: 312-702-6900
russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) (06/06/91)
In article <1991Jun5.173719.8604@milton.u.washington.edu> tlk@milton.u.washington.edu (Jeremy Norberg) writes: >russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: > >>In the wild guess arena-- Is the RAM the proper speed rating for the SE/30 >>(I think 120ns is required, but it could be 100ns) > >The SE/30 as well as everything above it require 100ns chips or better!! > >Only Plus/Classic can use 120ns SIMMS. The Plus can use 150ns SIMMs. The Mac II can use 120ns SIMMs. -- Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus.
kevin@crash.cts.com (Kevin Hill) (06/07/91)
In <1991Jun5.150350.21814@eng.umd.edu> russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: >In article <676094904.5@blkcat.FidoNet> Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) writes: >>I sure could use some help with a perplexing problem. >> >> >>Turning on the machines out of the box we got the question mark'd disk instead of booting from the internal HD. After booting from a floppy and having it recognize the HD it would boot from it upon restart. Then, in unpredictable places while running va >>rious s/ware the machine would hang with various errors from 'out of memory' to 'bus error' to plain old 'system error'. Sometimes they won't recognize a floppy that's shoved in, sometimes they will. >> >>It's all very strange and quite disturbing. I have never had a problem with getting a Mac out of the box and having it fire up just fine. >In the wild guess arena-- Is the RAM the proper speed rating for the SE/30 >(I think 120ns is required, but it could be 100ns) The Mac SE/30 does require 100ns roms... You might want to check that out! Hope this is of help.
jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) (06/07/91)
In article <1991Jun6.190029.15443@crash.cts.com> kevin@crash.cts.com (Kevin Hill) writes: >In <1991Jun5.150350.21814@eng.umd.edu> russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: >>In the wild guess arena-- Is the RAM the proper speed rating for the SE/30 >>(I think 120ns is required, but it could be 100ns) > > The Mac SE/30 does require 100ns roms... You might want to check that >out! Hope this is of help. All of the original Mac II/IIx type designes (of which the SE/30 is one) require 120ns or faster RAM. The IIsi is the one that requires 100ns. -- John Cavallino | EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago Hospitals | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145 Office of Facilities Management | Chicago, IL 60637 B0 f++ c+ g+ k s+(+) e+ h- pv (qv) | Telephone: 312-702-6900
jcav@quads.uchicago.edu (john cavallino) (06/07/91)
In article <976@utsmips.csd.uts.EDU.AU> james@uts.EDU.AU (J Boswell) writes: >Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) writes: [stuff deleted] >There is a strong possibility that the hard drive is not "ready" when the SCSI >bus resets. I have had similar problems with an external drive taking too long >and the internal drive booting when the external is the selected start up >device. > >If this is the case and your HD is "missing the SCSI bus" then there are some >ways around it if the mob who upgraded them cops out. Two possible H/W mods >do effectively the same thing. i) mod the logic board so the reset pulse >is longer (not recommended) or ii) put a delay on the 5 V line to the logic >board so that the 12V is slightly ahead of it, giving the drive time to spin up. >This one is not hard, a small inline inductor will work O.K. > >The third option is installing more memory thereby delaying the time when the >Mac checks the SCSI bus to see who's available. > >The best option is of course to get the upgrader to supply a HD that is faster >from power on to ready, usually the main factor is time to reach correct >spindle speed. !!! Whoah! There is a value stored in the PRAM of post-SE Macs that determines how long the Mac will wait at startup for the hard disk to come up to speed. There are two Operating System calls for reading and setting this value, which can be any number of seconds up to 31, with the default being 15. Making a quickie utility that sets this timeout value (I'm sure one already exists somewhere) is much the best answer for disks that "miss the SCSI bus". No hardware chopping required. :-) -- John Cavallino | EMail: jcav@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago Hospitals | USMail: 5841 S. Maryland Ave, Box 145 Office of Facilities Management | Chicago, IL 60637 B0 f++ c+ g+ k s+(+) e+ h- pv (qv) | Telephone: 312-702-6900
james@uts.EDU.AU (J Boswell) (06/07/91)
Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) writes: >I sure could use some help with a perplexing problem. >We have just got in 10 brand new SE/30's at work for use as equipment controllers. Since these machines are going overseas we've learned to open up everything and burn it in for awhile before shipping it out the door. In the process of doing so we've noted some disturbing behavior. >These are SE/30's that've been upgraded to 5MB of RAM by Falcon (the sole GSA vendor for Apple h/ware!) and internal 40MB hard drives. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what brand etc etc >Turning on the machines out of the box we got the question mark'd disk instead of booting from the internal HD. After booting from a floppy and having it recognize the HD it would boot from it upon restart. There is a strong possibility that the hard drive is not "ready" when the SCSI bus resets. I have had similar problems with an external drive taking too long and the internal drive booting when the external is the selected start up device. If this is the case and your HD is "missing the SCSI bus" then there are some ways around it if the mob who upgraded them cops out. Two possible H/W mods do effectively the same thing. i) mod the logic board so the reset pulse is longer (not recommended) or ii) put a delay on the 5 V line to the logic board so that the 12V is slightly ahead of it, giving the drive time to spin up. This one is not hard, a small inline inductor will work O.K. The third option is installing more memory thereby delaying the time when the Mac checks the SCSI bus to see who's available. The best option is of course to get the upgrader to supply a HD that is faster from power on to ready, usually the main factor is time to reach correct spindle speed. As for the other problems you mentioned check mem speed is fast enough and compatability of s/w. I would never judge a machines performance on crashes from shareware / PD stuff. James Of course I could be totally off the planet and it would'nt be the first time, but it's worth checking out, esp. if the machine boots ok after Restart/Reset/Shutdown etc etc. good luck
Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) (06/07/91)
Can you tell me (and others) how to get the 'ns' rating of RAM from the series of numbers on the chips? I know there's some code that's not hard to figure out once someone tells you what it is. I've had similar problems on a couple of a series of 10 new SE/30s we just got in from Falcon Micro here in DC. They were stock 2/40 configurations that we had them put the memory in before they shipped 'em. I took the first one that had this problem apart and gave the SIMMs the 'thumb' treatment to make sure they were all seated well and making contact. Either this or just removing/replacing connectors seems to have cleared up the problem. Not very reassuring for machines that'll be shipped overseas t o some pretty inhospital places! Thanks. * Origin: Point under test! Rockville, MD (1:109/421.916)
mrc@unislc.uucp (Mike Cederholm) (06/08/91)
tlk@milton.u.washington.edu (Jeremy Norberg) writes: >russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: >BB >>In article <676094904.5@blkcat.FidoNet> Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) writes: >>>I sure could use some help with a perplexing problem. >>> >>>These are SE/30's that've been upgraded to 5MB of RAM by Falcon (the sole GSA vendor for Apple h/ware!) and internal 40MB hard drives. >>> >>>Turning on the machines out of the box we got the question mark'd disk instead of booting from the internal HD. After booting from a floppy and having it recognize the HD it would boot from it upon restart. Then, in unpredictable places while running va >>>rious s/ware the machine would hang with various errors from 'out of memory' to 'bus error' to plain old 'system error'. Sometimes they won't recognize a floppy that's shoved in, sometimes they will. >>> >>>It's all very strange and quite disturbing. I have never had a problem with getting a Mac out of the box and having it fire up just fine. >>In the wild guess arena-- Is the RAM the proper speed rating for the SE/30 >>(I think 120ns is required, but it could be 100ns) >>-- >>Matthew T. Russotto russotto@eng.umd.edu russotto@wam.umd.edu >> .sig under construction, like the rest of this campus. >The SE/30 as well as everything above it require 100ns chips or better!! >Only Plus/Classic can use 120ns SIMMS. >-- > "The Power to be Your Best" -Apple Computers > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Jeremy C. Norberg tlk@u.washington.edu I hate to disagree but per the Inside Mac series Hardware documentation ( I am at a loss for the title right now) it clearly states that 120ns or better memory is required for the SE/30, not 100 ns simms. I know of no Techical note reversing this and the dealers I talked to said the didn't either. Thanks, unislc!mrc@sun.com +=======================================================================+ Mike Cederholm dba. | (801)-254-7039 pineHOUSE Development | (801)-594-4460 @ Unisys,SLC 1246 Lampton Rd. | So. Jordan, Utah 84065-9218 | +=======================================================================+ uucp: unislc!mrc@sun.com internet: still working on it.. +=======================================================================+
james@uts.EDU.AU (J Boswell) (06/11/91)
Bill.Whitacre@p916.f421.n109.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bill Whitacre) writes: >Can you tell me (and others) how to get the 'ns' rating of RAM from the series of numbers on the chips? I know there's some code that's not hard to figure out once someone tells you what it is. Easy ... after the part number on the chip (usally looks like 41C1000 or something similar for a 1M chip) there is a number preceded by a dash, eg -15 = 150ns -12 = 120ns -10 = 100ns -8 = 80ns etc sometimes this number is multiplied by ten, othertimes it cam be the full speed as in -150 = 150ns etc etc. James.
Ian_Pennington@mindlink.bc.ca (Ian Pennington) (06/12/91)
bill.. at a gues I'd say that the system software used installed on the drives is screwy. If they formatted all the drives with the same software that would explain the problems over many machines. alternatively, the formatting software they used my be faulty. As possible solutions, I'd recommend reinstalling system 7 on one of your faulty machines. If that doesn't correct it, get some formatting software and reformat the drives, then resinstall the system software. Norton Utilities and/or Disk Manager Mac are both excellent regards...... Ian Pennington