jimb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Jim Burke) (10/05/89)
Having recently recently ended my involvement with an OO project
(using objective-c) the frustrations are still fresh in my mind
regarding the lack of reasonable tools to aid in oo software
development. I'd be interested in hearing about any such tools
that are now or soon to be available. For example, CASE, documentation
tools, design tools, debugging tools, etc. etc. At least in the
Objective-C world, there still does not exist a symbolic debugger
commercially available for most platforms. God help you if you have
to debug from the generated C code. I'm sure a lot of people are
working on other oo tools besides databases - anyone care to share
the latest and greatest???
--
****** Views expressed herin are my own *******
Jim Burke - consultant 408) 734-9822 | I'll stop posting when they pry my
jimb@Atherton.COM | cold, dead fingers from the smoking
{decwrl,sun,hpda,pyramid}!athertn!jimb | keyboard.drc@claris.com (Dennis Cohen) (10/05/89)
jimb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Jim Burke) writes: >Having recently recently ended my involvement with an OO project >(using objective-c) the frustrations are still fresh in my mind >regarding the lack of reasonable tools to aid in oo software >development. I'd be interested in hearing about any such tools >that are now or soon to be available. For example, CASE, documentation >tools, design tools, debugging tools, etc. etc. At least in the >Objective-C world, there still does not exist a symbolic debugger >commercially available for most platforms. God help you if you have >to debug from the generated C code. I'm sure a lot of people are >working on other oo tools besides databases - anyone care to share >the latest and greatest??? At the Apple Worldwide Developer's Conference back in the spring, there was an exhibitor named SoftSet showing a prerelease of a product called Aranda. This was a design/documentation tool that ran off Pascal and Object Pascal sources. They stated that they expected to have a C/C++-cognizant version "shortly" after the release of the Pascal version. You might want to check with them. They're located in Vancouver, BC. I don't know when Aranda will be released, but it was the first CASE product of any sort that I had encountered that didn't appear to be onerous in its demands on the programmer. Dennis Cohen Claris Corp. **************************************************** Disclaimer: Any opinions expressed above are _MINE_! ****************************************************
alms@cambridge.apple.com (Andrew L. M. Shalit) (10/05/89)
In article <13307@athertn.Atherton.COM> jimb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Jim Burke) writes:
Having recently recently ended my involvement with an OO project
(using objective-c) the frustrations are still fresh in my mind
regarding the lack of reasonable tools to aid in oo software
development.
I don't know if this helps, but some (most?) of the best programming
environments in the world are built around dynamic object-oriented
languages like Lisp Flavors and Smalltalk.
Of course, the operative word in the above sentence is 'dynamic'. The
dynamic (i.e. interactive) nature of the early object-oriented
languages contributed to much of their power. The value of
a dynamic environment was (sadly) overlooked when people designed
object-oriented extensions to C and Pascal.cassel@sce.carleton.ca (Ron Casselman) (10/05/89)
At Carleton University we are using Objective C on several software development projects and are hurting because of the lack of tool support. We have modified two existing tools; namely dbx and cpr, to provide a symbolic debugger and automatic documentation generation capability for Objective C. Modifing dbx was very easy. We just added some user defined functions to print instance variables, find the C implementations of methods etc. Objective-C proves methods and functions specifically for debugging. As for documentation generation, cpr was modified to find class and method definitions (with associated comments) and spit out a latex document. We can also search class heirarchies and create class heirarchy diagrams. Some tools we like to see are a browser and a "lint"er. We have used lint on the intermediate "C" code but it takes a lot of sifting to find the important info. If anyone has info. on commerical or public domain tools for the new "crop" of hybrid 00 languages please post. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Casselman cassel@sce.UUCP (613) 788-2756 cassel@sce.carleton.ca ---------------------------------------------------------------------
jima@hplsla.HP.COM (Jim Adcock) (10/07/89)
>I don't know if this helps, but some (most?) of the best programming >environments in the world are built around dynamic object-oriented >languages like Lisp Flavors and Smalltalk. > >Of course, the operative word in the above sentence is 'dynamic'. The >dynamic (i.e. interactive) nature of the early object-oriented >languages contributed to much of their power. The value of >a dynamic environment was (sadly) overlooked when people designed >object-oriented extensions to C and Pascal. ParcPlace has a Smalltalk-like development environment for C++. In fact they make Smalltalk & C++ versions of the same environment. The environment features incremental compilation to allow "interactive" style of development. Given the number of C interpreters, and the rate of growing interest in C++, I bet a number of companies will have C++ interpreters out soon. Some language developers concentrate on development environment first, at the expense of compiler efficiency. Other language developers concentrate on compiler efficiency first, at the expense of not having good development tools. Eventually if a language really catches on, enough $$$ are generated that users get good compilers AND good development environments. Then the only thing holding a language back are any fundamental flaws in the language's design. If stuck with a bad development environment, the best one can do is get a very fast machine to do development on. Ditto if stuck with inefficient compilers. Raw MIPS compensates for a lot of problems. Given the rate of development of RISC machines, maybe in a couple years this will all be a "dont-care."
jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) (10/10/89)
Do we now have to call programming environments "CASE tools"?
kcr@netxdev.DHL.COM (Ken Ritchie) (10/25/89)
In article <13307@athertn.Atherton.COM> jimb@athertn.Atherton.COM (Jim Burke) writes: > >...regarding the lack of reasonable tools to aid in oo software >development. I'd be interested in hearing about any such tools... >in the Objective-C world, there still does not exist a symbolic debugger... > >Jim Burke - consultant (408) 734-9822 >{decwrl,sun,hpda,pyramid}!athertn!jimb Try using Complete C (tm) from Complete Computer Corporation, which has a nifty LOGICAL DEBUGGER, with tracing, breakpoints, and inspection -- at the message selector, receiver, and object levels. They have a shareware edition for MS-DOS (use Borland or Microsoft C compiler), and reasonably priced ($500) commercial grade packages for MS-DOS, XENIX, and a growing list of other OS's! BTW, they have a Documentation Generator, included in the commercial packages. I've played with the shareware package, and I LIKE IT! What's REALLY NICE is the SYNTAX! It's VERY CLEAN and SO ELEGANT it's "obvious" (in hindsight). It is C, with Smalltalk-ish message expressions grafted in with "[ ... ]" which is VERY NICE TO READ (AND WRITE)! But if you botch up the code, their Logical Debugger is ready to assist you in peering into the running system! The principal developer, Seth Copen Goldstein, is a long-time Smalltalk-er who wanted a way to port his systems over into compiled targets. You can learn a lot just by reading the "Foundation Class" object source code. Complete Computer Corporation (212) 582-2635 voice 111 West 57th Street (212) 397-1580 FAX New York, NR 10019 (212) 956-4535 BBS DISCLAIMER: This is a voluntary endorsement from a self-appointed fanatic! _______________________________________________________________________________ Ken Ritchie (aka KCR) Usenet: ...!uunet!netxcom!netxdev!kcr NetExpress Communications, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd, Suite 300 FAX: USA (703) 749-2375 Vienna, Virginia (USA) 22182 Voice: USA (703) 749-2268 "Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein Disclaimer: We have over 100 people here, and each one has an opinion or two... _______________________________________________________________________________