ken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried III) (09/24/89)
In article <668@suntops.Tops.Sun.COM> jisom@santa_fe.tops.sun.com (Jim Isom) writes: > >This could become a real learning experience group. > One would hope... > >In a slightly different vein... does anyone have an idea for a way to share >equations with a (hopefully large) group of net users? One particular >platform's graphics or typesetting would likely be out. I'm thinking of >postscript, but I have no idea of the spread of users that could use it. > Personally, I would advocate TeX/LaTeX for communicating equations. It has the advantage of running on a vast number of horribly baroque machines, having a wide array of output drivers and, most importantly, it is relatively readable in unprocessed form, unlike something like postscript or eqn. Oh, yea...and it's free...;') ...ken seefried iii ken@gatech.edu Programming, v., an activity not unlike beating ones head, repeatedly, against a wall, but with less opportunity for reward...
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (09/24/89)
In article <19237@gatech.edu> ken@gatech.UUCP (Ken Seefried III) writes: >Personally, I would advocate TeX/LaTeX for communicating equations. >It has the advantage of running on a vast number of horribly baroque >machines, having a wide array of output drivers and, most importantly, >it is relatively readable in unprocessed form, unlike something like >postscript or eqn. Uh, agreed about postscript, but somebody has misinformed you about eqn. TeX's math notation is a LESS-readable clone of eqn (more or less). See related posting. -- "Where is D.D. Harriman now, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology when we really *need* him?" | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) (09/25/89)
In article <19237@gatech.edu> ken@gatech.UUCP (Ken Seefried III) writes: >>In a slightly different vein... does anyone have an idea for a way to share >>equations with a (hopefully large) group of net users? One particular >>platform's graphics or typesetting would likely be out. I'm thinking of >>postscript, but I have no idea of the spread of users that could use it. > >Personally, I would advocate TeX/LaTeX for communicating equations. I think Mathematica notebooks are a better medium for distributing signal processing ideas. While it is true that Mathematica's notation is a bit baroque the advantage of having runnable code with graphics and text is pretty important. A well written notebook can be read like a normal paper but since all the equations are "live" readers can modify them and use the equations in their own investigations. Perhaps, someday the notation might be prettier but I think live, interactive documents are the way to go. It is important to note, also, that Mathematica notebooks are straight ASCII text. This makes them very digestible by bulletin board software. In addition a free Mathematica notebook reader is available for the Mac (so you can see the graphics) (and I guess the NeXT too :-). On other machines (PCs, Suns, etc) the notebooks can be read and used for new work but all the benefits of a notebook aren't available, yet. An example of this type of document is a report titled "Lyon's Cochlear Model," which I wrote to describe some of the research we are doing at Apple. I used Mathematica to write and distribute this report because I wanted readers to be able to explore the design as I had when writing the report. The appendix to the report includes a large number of functions for designing and plotting continuous and discrete second order sections. This report is available for free from me (malcolm@apple.com) or from the Apple Corporate Library if you send a paper mail address. (The notebook has so many graphics that it is 1.5Mbytes long so it is a bit large for mass distribution over the networks. The technical report has been published as a typeset paper with an attached Macintosh floppy that contains the electronic version of the notebook.) I describe other benefits of Mathematica notebooks for signal processing in an upcoming article in the January 1990 issue of IEEE Signal Processing Magazine (the tutorial and general interest magazine). I see the main benefits of a Mathematica-style notebook for research and publishing as: 1) An interactive research and learning environment. 2) Hypermedia for learning tailored to the reader's needs. 3) A literate programming environment. TeX and even Troff are wonderful pieces of software but they only solve part of the problem. Computers give us the ability to interact with our environment so why should we be stuck with static papers? Malcolm Slaney Speech and Hearing Project Apple Computer malcolm@apple.com
dar@telesoft.com (David Reisner) (09/25/89)
While I agree that many meaningful postings to this group will require
substantial math, I'd like to see equations posted in a "plain text"
format rather than postscript, TeX, etc. I'm primarily interested in the
content of the discussions, I have no (easy) way of converting encoded
equations while reading news, and no reasonable access to appropriate
printing facilities IF I were willing to print every article before
reading (which would also require some more general text formatting
conventions to identify what should be processed by what filters).
It would, however, be nice if we could all use some reasonable conventions
to express untypeble symbols (e.g. summation {sum(i[l,h]) eqn(i)}, greek).
-David
{uunet,ucsd}!telesoft!dar, dar@sdcsvax.ucsd.eduken@gatech.edu (Ken Seefried III) (09/25/89)
In article <34990@apple.Apple.COM> malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) writes: > >I think Mathematica notebooks are a better medium for distributing signal >processing ideas. While it is true that Mathematica's notation is a bit >baroque the advantage of having runnable code with graphics and text is >pretty important. > Yes...but the disadvantage of having to pay a not-so-small fortune to get a copy of Mathematics is pretty important, too... Not to mention the fact that Mathematica is availible on a relatively small subset of computers (roughly 25 makes, no?). Then, of course, is the fact that most readers probably have neither Mathematica nor reader software. > >It is important to note, also, that Mathematica notebooks are straight ASCII >text. This makes them very digestible by bulletin board software. In addition >a free Mathematica notebook reader is available for the Mac (so you can see >the graphics) (and I guess the NeXT too :-). On other machines (PCs, Suns, >etc) the notebooks can be read and used for new work but all the benefits of >a notebook aren't available, yet. > Ummm...last time I checked, TeX was straight ascii also. Plus, I can run TeX and get output from IBM VM/CMS, CDC Cyber NOS/VE, DEC TOPS-10/20, Amiga, Atari-ST...on and on. > >TeX and even Troff are wonderful pieces of software but they only solve part >of the problem. Computers give us the ability to interact with our >environment so why should we be stuck with static papers? > Sure they only solve some of the problem, the part of the problem that we are discussing: how to communicate effectively on charater terminals mathematical equations. Now if all of us...most of us...well, even a few of us had Mathematica, we'd be all set. However, the vast majority don't (and I'm not whining cause I don't have it...we have NeXT machines all over campus). Without Mathematica the notebooks aren't that useful to the majority of readers. With TeX, however, a vastly greater percentage of comp.dsp's readership will be able read the equation on the screen, and print off a reasonably good copy of it. Sure, we won't be able to run it, or generate graphics from it, etc., but it will still be useful to us. Now mind you...I'm not trying to rain on your parade. Mathematica is wonderful stuff. However, in TeX we have a common denominator that will benefit the maximum number of users... ...ken
doug@xdos.UUCP (Doug Merritt) (09/25/89)
In article <34990@apple.Apple.COM> malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) writes: >In article <19237@gatech.edu> ken@gatech.UUCP (Ken Seefried III) writes: >> does anyone have an idea for a way to share equations [...] >>Personally, I would advocate TeX/LaTeX for communicating equations. > >I think Mathematica notebooks are a better medium for distributing signal >processing ideas. Unfortunately, while both TeX/LaTeX and Mathematica would be nice, this won't work for Usenet articles. Only a small percentage of the readers of your articles have either of these packages. Also, even if they did, it would be very inconvenient to shift articles from a normal news reader (like 'rn' or 'vnews') into these packages for proper display. Furthermore, of the people who have access to such packages, they don't always have access the instant they're reading them. For instance, right now I'm dialed up to work from home. And lastly, this subject has been debated frequently in groups like sci.math and sci.electronics without ever reaching a consensus; there's no particular reason to think that things will be different in sci.dsp. Some people just go ahead and use LaTeX in their articles anyway, which I think is a real shame, because it's much harder to read than plaintext ASCII formulae. >An example of this type of document is a report titled "Lyon's Cochlear Model," >which I wrote to describe some of the research we are doing at Apple. I used A very interesting paper it is, too, and thanks again. I think it's great that you're championing use of Mathematica. It's just premature to ask for use of it as a standard distribution format. Doug -- Doug Merritt {pyramid,apple}!xdos!doug Member, Crusaders for a Better Tomorrow Professional Wildeyed Visionary
jensen@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu (P. Allen Jensen) (09/25/89)
While TeX would be great for those with TeX (and XYZ for those with
XYZ), I agree
that the main use will probably not be as input to TeX (or XYZ). I
think that some
conventions should be adopted and suggest that the form Mathematica uses
for interactive
input might be appropriate. I have found it pretty easy to use and a
specification is easily
found just by looking at the Mathematica book. The greek letters,
however, are another
problem...
P. Allen Jensen
Georgia Tech, School of Electrical Engineering, Atlanta, GA 30332
USENET: ...!{allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,ulysses}!gatech!eedsp!jensen
INTERNET: jensen@eedsp.gatech.eduingoldsb@ctycal.COM (Terry Ingoldsby) (09/27/89)
I disagree about using TEX, eqn or whatever. When I read news, I typically
do it on a VT100 type terminal (actually an emulation window). Although I
print some news, most I just read via readnews and then move on. While it
would be nice to include instructions on how to generate high quality
equations, for general purpose reading it might be easier to just fudge
it:
n
---
\ -1/n
/ a e + 6
---
i=5
is not that unreadable. I agree that the really complicated expressions
can't be shown like this, but most equations we write could be. Using the
gobbledygook of eqn, TEX or whatever, means that I have to save the file,
edit and massage it, format it and print it to screen or paper.
--
Terry Ingoldsby ctycal!ingoldsb@calgary.UUCP
Land Information Systems or
The City of Calgary ...{alberta,ubc-cs,utai}!calgary!ctycal!ingoldsbaglew@urbana.mcd.mot.com (Andy-Krazy-Glew) (09/27/89)
..> Communicating equations in newsgroups: ..> both TeX and Mathematica format have been suggested. >[Doug Merritt]: >Unfortunately, while both TeX/LaTeX and Mathematica would be nice, >this won't work for Usenet articles. Only a small percentage of the >readers of your articles have either of these packages. Also, even if they >did, it would be very inconvenient to shift articles from a normal >news reader (like 'rn' or 'vnews') into these packages for proper display. >Furthermore, of the people who have access to such packages, they don't >always have access the instant they're reading them. Some considerations: Mathematica is proprietary. TeX is, while not quite public domain (copyright owned by American Mathematical Society), at least is free. Mathematica can produce TeX output. Can it accept TeX input? What would be nice is to have Mathematica and TeX interconvertibility, perhaps with a sink to ASCII representation. --- Why does every new newsgroup I'm interested in have these discussions? There was a similar discussion in sci.electronics, for exchange of circuit diagrams. -- Andy "Krazy" Glew, Motorola MCD, aglew@urbana.mcd.mot.com 1101 E. University, Urbana, IL 61801, USA. {uunet!,}uiucuxc!udc!aglew My opinions are my own; I indicate my company only so that the reader may account for any possible bias I may have towards our products.
eugene@eos.UUCP (Eugene Miya) (09/28/89)
Sorry, I voted for, and wanted to read about DSP. Not about
formatter wars. I thought editor wars were bad. Sorry I had to
inject this non-DSP related thing. Sure it's a loss. There is
an real incentive to dump vt100s, 3270s, what ever! Think about.
What are you doing at such a backward company? Second, news
had better start thinking about the exchange of imagery and Lo!
sound [hey wait a minute, ain't that DSP?]. If you guys can't start to
agree on stuff in the BACKGROUND (RFPs, RFCs, RFIs), then theres
no hope for news. Hey, Etherphones (tm) exist, the BSD talk(1) and VMS
phone programs are DUMB. And people are worried about HDTV? Gawd!
you guys are your own worst enemies (Detroit on the net).
Tell me when you start discussing real DSP. I'll resubscribe then.
Another gross generalization from
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@aurora.arc.nasa.gov
resident cynic at the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers:
"You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?"
"If my mail does not reach you, please accept my apology."
{ncar,decwrl,hplabs,uunet}!ames!eugene
Live free or die.aglew@urbana.mcd.mot.com (Andy-Krazy-Glew) (09/29/89)
>Tell me when you start discussing real DSP. I'll resubscribe then. > >Another gross generalization from > >--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@aurora.arc.nasa.gov > resident cynic at the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers: Sorry, I can't resist this... Eugene periodically subscribes and desubscribes to the *best* newsgroups. With loud announcements. (Yeah, I'm emailing him as well.) Andy "Krazy" Glew, Motorola MCD, aglew@urbana.mcd.mot.com 1101 E. University, Urbana, IL 61801, USA. {uunet!,}uiucuxc!udc!aglew My opinions are my own; I indicate my company only so that the reader may account for any possible bias I may have towards our products. -- Andy "Krazy" Glew, Motorola MCD, aglew@urbana.mcd.mot.com 1101 E. University, Urbana, IL 61801, USA. {uunet!,}uiucuxc!udc!aglew My opinions are my own; I indicate my company only so that the reader may account for any possible bias I may have towards our products.
jensen@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu (P. Allen Jensen) (09/30/89)
>I disagree about using TEX, eqn or whatever. When I read news, I typically >do it on a VT100 type terminal (actually an emulation window). Although I >print some news, most I just read via readnews and then move on. While it >would be nice to include instructions on how to generate high quality >equations, for general purpose reading it might be easier to just fudge >it: > n > --- > \ -1/n > / a e + 6 > --- > i=5 > >is not that unreadable. I agree that the really complicated expressions >can't be shown like this, but most equations we write could be. Using the >gobbledygook of eqn, TEX or whatever, means that I have to save the file, >edit and massage it, format it and print it to screen or paper. I like the above - now, does someone have a program that will convert something like sum(i=5,n,a*e^(1/n)+6) into the above ?? Doesn't mathematica use something like the first equation when it prints out something the user typed in like the second equation ? Perhaps someone could write a quick program ;-) to translate so that we can type it one way and include it into mail in the "easy to read" form. - P. Allen Jensen Georgia Tech, School of Electrical Engineering, Atlanta, GA 30332 USENET: ...!{allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,ulysses}!gatech!eedsp!jensen INTERNET: jensen@eedsp.gatech.edu