[fa.info-vax] How big is VMS?

kaiser@jaws.DEC (Pete Kaiser 225-5441 HLO2-1/N10) (01/14/85)

A recent posting to net.unix-wizards mentions UNIX's smallness as one of
its virtues.  For comparison, I know of a functioning MicroVMS system that
occupies a total of 2878 blocks on an RD disk and can be stored as a backup
save set on 4 RX50 floppies.  The person responsible for this calls it
"NanoVMS", and points out that "since it can MOUNT disks, and perform COPY
and BACKUP operations from them, it can grow into a full VMS system without
any omissions."

My thanks to NanoVMS's configurer -- you know who you are, Ed -- and hope for
his forgiving my posting this information without his permission.

---Pete

Kaiser%JAWS.DEC@decwrl.arpa, Kaiser%BELKER.DEC@decwrl.arpa
{allegra|decvax|ihnp4|ucbvax}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-jaws!kaiser
DEC, 77 Reed Road (HLO2-1/N10), Hudson MA 01749		617/568-5441

dan@rna.UUCP (01/14/85)

> A recent posting to net.unix-wizards mentions UNIX's smallness as one of
> its virtues.  For comparison, I know of a functioning MicroVMS system that
> occupies a total of 2878 blocks on an RD disk and can be stored as a backup
> save set on 4 RX50 floppies.  The person responsible for this calls it
> "NanoVMS", and points out that "since it can MOUNT disks, and perform COPY
> and BACKUP operations from them, it can grow into a full VMS system without
> any omissions."
> 
> My thanks to NanoVMS's configurer -- you know who you are, Ed -- and hope for
> his forgiving my posting this information without his permission.

	I'm glad to hear VMS can be compressed like that. It is quite possible
(I've done it) to run a minimal UNIX system capable of mounting, copying,
and other file utilities in a single 500block (1/4Mb) floppy (including swap).
A reasonably function system can be placed on two such floppies, which in
addition to the standard utilities, could include a few applications and
space for application data files.

info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA (01/15/85)

From: fortune!redwood!rpw3@UCB-VAX

+---------------
| A recent posting to net.unix-wizards mentions UNIX's smallness as one of
| its virtues.  For comparison, I know of a functioning MicroVMS system that
| occupies a total of 2878 blocks on an RD disk and can be stored as a backup
| save set on 4 RX50 floppies.  The person responsible for this calls it
| "NanoVMS", and points out that "since it can MOUNT disks, and perform COPY
| and BACKUP operations from them, it can grow into a full VMS system without
| any omissions."
| ---Pete
+---------------

I'll see you a VMS and raise you back a UNIX... The Fortune Systems 32:16
operating system (a UNIX v.7/4.1bsd/Sys-III derivative), including a fancy
menu-driven shell and "user-friendly" software installation package, comes
with the system on THREE (3) 5-1/4" floppies (less than 2370 1K blocks). Since
it can format disks (floppies and hard disks of various sizes), "mkfs" them,
mount/umount, copy, install, backup, and delete software (both protected
and un-), it could "grow into a full UNIX", except that it already is pretty
much of one. (The compilers, major development tools, and applications are
unbundled.)

This so-called "cold boot set" includes an editor (ed), multi-queue print
spooler (with "printcap"), shells (menu and Bourne), system management tools
(ps, pstat, df, fsck, etc.), terminal support (termcap, page, more), run-time
auto-configuration of hardware, etc. (It's over 270 files.)

Actually, the UNIX stuff is really on the first two disks; the third one is
completely full of the "user-friendly" shell (mostly the screens and the error
messages.) So let's trim it down to what a UNIX person would consider a basic
execution environment -- the first two disks. That's less than 1.6 megabytes.

"I'll see your four floppies and raise (oops! lower) you to two..."


Rob Warnock
Systems Architecture Consultant

UUCP:	{ihnp4,ucbvax!dual}!fortune!redwood!rpw3
DDD:	(415)572-2607
USPS:	510 Trinidad Lane, Foster City, CA  94404

info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA (01/15/85)

From: callas%meteor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Hardware is just a mathematical abstraction)

	A recent posting to net.unix-wizards mentions UNIX's
	smallness as one of its virtues.  For comparison, I know of
	a functioning MicroVMS system that occupies a total of 2878
	blocks on an RD disk and can be stored as a backup save set
	on 4 RX50 floppies.  The person responsible for this calls
	it "NanoVMS", and points out that "since it can MOUNT disks,
	and perform COPY and BACKUP operations from them, it can
	grow into a full VMS system without any omissions." ---Pete

	I'll see you a VMS and raise you back a UNIX... The Fortune
	Systems 32:16 operating system (a UNIX v.7/4.1bsd/Sys-III
	derivative), including a fancy menu-driven shell and
	"user-friendly" software installation package, comes with
	the system on THREE (3) 5-1/4" floppies (less than 2370 1K
	blocks). Since it can format disks (floppies and hard disks
	of various sizes), "mkfs" them, mount/umount, copy, install,
	backup, and delete software (both protected and un-), it
	could "grow into a full UNIX", except that it already is
	pretty much of one. (The compilers, major development tools,
	and applications are unbundled.) 

	[...]
	Actually, the UNIX stuff is really on the first two disks;

	the third one is completely full of the "user-friendly"
	shell (mostly the screens and the error messages.) So let's
	trim it down to what a UNIX person would consider a basic
	execution environment -- the first two disks. That's less
	than 1.6 megabytes. 

	"I'll see your four floppies and raise (oops! lower) you to two..."

I'm afraid you lose. The 2878 block system mentioned above (Which I have 
never heard of -- I'm impressed!) is a 2878 512 byte block system! This 
makes it nearly 1/2 the size of the 2370K system you mention, and at 1.4 
megabytes, still smaller than the 1.6 megabyte "user-surly" system you 
mention. However, the point that your 2 floppies hold much more data than 
the 4 RX50's is conceded.

Jon Callas
callas%meteor.DEC@decwrl.ARPA
...decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-meteor!callas

info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA (01/20/85)

From: ihnp4!utzoo!henry@UCB-VAX

> A recent posting to net.unix-wizards mentions UNIX's smallness as one of
> its virtues.  For comparison, I know of a functioning MicroVMS system that
> occupies a total of 2878 blocks on an RD disk and can be stored as a backup
> save set on 4 RX50 floppies.  The person responsible for this calls it
> "NanoVMS", and points out that "since it can MOUNT disks, and perform COPY
> and BACKUP operations from them, it can grow into a full VMS system without
> any omissions."

Positively elephantine.  MiniUnix (remember that?) could *run* from a
single floppy.  It could mount disks, and perform copies and backups
too.  Running it off a floppy made it kinda slow, but it worked.  It
was pretty close to a full Unix, in its day.

I also worked for a year and a half on a Unix whose system disk was a
single RK05.  This was *not* a subset and *not* a cut-down version; it
was a full V6 Unix.  An RK05 was 4800 512-byte blocks, the last 800 were
swap area, and there was a modest amount of free space on the disk.

				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry

info-vax@ucbvax.ARPA (01/20/85)

From: cowan%r2me2.DEC@decwrl.ARPA  (Ken Cowan, 381-2198)


Speaking of anti-smallness ...

Does anyone remember using a PDP 11/20 with only a few K of memory?
How about a not-so-old PDP 11/70 with 128K?  These days I need 128K
just to sneeze  ...

I was editing a file the other day and got between 4 and 5 Mb of
real memory to use.  I'm having a good time; how about you?

	KC