gcf@mydog.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) (03/03/91)
As you all know, there has been a lot of talk about making Iraq pay reparations. Various figures like "80 billion" float around. Meanwhile, Iraq is devastated, and U.N. sanctions are still in effect with no end in sight. It seems to me that, long ago, I heard the story of another nation that was defeated in war. It, too, was devastated and blockaded; and it was made to pay considerable reparations. This turned out to have been a bad thing to do -- a very, very bad thing to do, according to the common wisdom of my boyhood. The vindictiveness of those who had exacted reparations was turned around on their countries a hundredfold. The common wisdom said that the ordinary people should not be punished for the evil of their leaders; that they should be shown that there was a respectable and constructive place for them in the world. Because this was done, and it was a success. There was an end, pretty much, to the cycle of vengeance and hatred. I don't want to say our leaders are foolish. They do know how to fight a war, at least against a country ten times smaller than the U.S. But I do think they ought to think this reparations stuff over pretty carefully. It does not have a good record at all. -- Gordon Fitch | gcf@mydog.uucp | uunet.uu.net!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf
jmc@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) (03/04/91)
In article <9103022221.28338@mydog.UUCP> gcf@mydog.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) writes:
As you all know, there has been a lot of talk about making Iraq
pay reparations. Various figures like "80 billion" float around.
Meanwhile, Iraq is devastated, and U.N. sanctions are still in
effect with no end in sight.
It seems to me that, long ago, I heard the story of another
nation that was defeated in war. It, too, was devastated and
blockaded; and it was made to pay considerable reparations.
This turned out to have been a bad thing to do -- a very, very
bad thing to do, according to the common wisdom of my boyhood.
The vindictiveness of those who had exacted reparations was
turned around on their countries a hundredfold. The common
wisdom said that the ordinary people should not be punished for
the evil of their leaders; that they should be shown that there
was a respectable and constructive place for them in the world.
Because this was done, and it was a success. There was an end,
pretty much, to the cycle of vengeance and hatred.
I don't want to say our leaders are foolish. They do know how to
fight a war, at least against a country ten times smaller than
the U.S. But I do think they ought to think this reparations
stuff over pretty carefully. It does not have a good record at
all.
Gordon Fitch | gcf@mydog.uucp | uunet.uu.net!cmcl2.nyu.edu!panix!mydog!gcf
If Iraq's oil production is restored, then at $20 per barrel, Iraq
will have an oil income of $17 billion per year. You are talking about
a mere five years oil income - or 10 years at half the oil income.
It's quite doable. There won't be much left to buy more T-72s
though.bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) (03/04/91)
From: gcf@mydog.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) >As you all know, there has been a lot of talk about making Iraq >pay reparations. Various figures like "80 billion" float around. >Meanwhile, Iraq is devastated, and U.N. sanctions are still in >effect with no end in sight. > >It seems to me that, long ago, I heard the story of another >nation that was defeated in war. It, too, was devastated and >blockaded; and it was made to pay considerable reparations. I would guess that if Saddam Hussein leaves Iraq and the Ba'athists yield power both the reparations and the sanctions will become a worry of the past. That's not that much of a guess, since it's been stated by various people who should know (like George Bush.) Once again we are in the same old rut, if the Iraqis won't fix what they have broken, then something bad may happen to them and some will speak up about how bad that might be, as if they had no choice in the matter. Perhaps Iraq should fix what is broken, at a very small cost, rather than stonewall much of the world again. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
matt@physics16.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) (03/04/91)
In article <16913@accuvax.nwu.edu> kaufman@delta.eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman) writes: Xref: agate talk.politics.misc:79912 trial.talk.politics.peace:77 alt.conspiracy:4675 alt.desert-storm:10844 Path: agate!ucbvax!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!accuvax.nwu.edu!delta.eecs.nwu.edu!kaufman From: kaufman@delta.eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,trial.talk.politics.peace,alt.conspiracy,alt.desert-storm Date: 4 Mar 91 04:01:15 GMT References: <9103022221.28338@mydog.UUCP> Sender: news@accuvax.nwu.edu Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University Lines: 18 In article <9103022221.28338@mydog.UUCP> gcf@mydog.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) writes: >It seems to me that, long ago, I heard the story of another >nation that was defeated in war. It, too, was devastated and >blockaded; and it was made to pay considerable reparations. Gosh Gordon, your posts would carry at lot more weight is you were to give slightly more specific examples. Like, the name of the country, when this happened, etc. As it stands now, most of us have no idea what you are talking about. On the contrary, I think (and I hope) that most of us know exactly what Gordon is talking about. The country he is talking about is Germany, and the Treaty of Versailles, which ended World War I in 1918, forced it to pay a crushing burden of war reparations. Many people believe that the resentment inspired by this punitive treaty was a major factor precipitating the collapse of the Weimar republic, the rise of Hitler, and the beginning of World War II. (Gordon might have used other examples as well; France, for example, after the Franco-Prussian War. Or he might have used an example of the opposite behavior: the Allies refusal to demand reparations from Germany and Japan after World War II.) -- Matthew Austern Just keep yelling until you attract a (415) 644-2618 crowd, then a constituency, a movement, a austern@lbl.bitnet faction, an army! If you don't have any austern@physics.berkeley.edu solutions, become a part of the problem!
kaufman@delta.eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman) (03/04/91)
In article <9103022221.28338@mydog.UUCP> gcf@mydog.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) writes: >It seems to me that, long ago, I heard the story of another >nation that was defeated in war. It, too, was devastated and >blockaded; and it was made to pay considerable reparations. Gosh Gordon, your posts would carry at lot more weight is you were to give slightly more specific examples. Like, the name of the country, when this happened, etc. As it stands now, most of us have no idea what you are talking about. Michael -- Michael Kaufman | I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on kaufman | fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in @eecs.nwu.edu | the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be | lost in time - like tears in rain. Time to die. Roy Batty
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (03/04/91)
In commenting on reparations in this manner, and saying they are wrong, one must consider several types of wrong. From a standpoint of justice, they are clearly right. Iraq should have to pay for what it did to Kuwait, particularly the malicious destruction and looting they did when they found out they were losing. It's the only just thing. The problem is complicated by who "Iraq" is. The problem with Germany is that the Germans of the 30s resented paying for what the Germans of the teens did under Kaiser Wilhelm. This was indeed fuel for Hitler. Many of the Iraqis who looted Kuwait have paid the ultimate price. The victim deserves reparation, but we must also be just in deciding who to take that from. From the Iraqi who opposed the war, but kept silent for fear of the secret police? The conscript who was press-ganged and ordered to sty on the lines or be shot by his own people? The problem is we have destroyed those who had the ability to pay and also were guilty. Most of them, anyway, and the allies dearly want the commanders who remain who fit that bill to also be eliminated one way or another. One commander in particular, of course. Yes, the Iraqis bear a sort of collective responsibility for allowing such a regime, for supporting it, by and large in the past. But how far does this go? I don't know the answer to that. One simple answer -- give parts of southern Iraq, including the famed Rumalla (or however you spell it) oilfield to Kuwait -- has some appeal, but it would also lead to long term resentment. After all, it was the ceding of Kuwait by Britain that, according to Saddam, caused this dispute. Any such solution would need an Arab mandate, not a western one. How much oil does Iraq have outside that field? If they have enough to rebuild without it, then taking it away has a certain justice to it. You tried for Kuwait, you lost instead of gaining. Of course, that lesson hasn't worked well in Israel, has it? Anything, other than the transfer of land, that will still have consequences a generation down the line should be avoided. We should try not to visit the sins of the parents upon the children. -- Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
dockd@mist.CS.ORST.EDU (Dion Dock) (03/05/91)
Iraq is said to have taken all of the gold out of Kuwait, along with everything else of value. Does everybody think they should keep it? I don't think reparations apply to things that weren't yours to begin with... Dion Dock dockd@mist.cs.orst.edu