sebic@well.UUCP (Dave Truckenmiller) (09/18/89)
Does anyone out there know if one could run AIX on a mainframe (IBM370) while also running OSes like MVS, CICS, and TSO? If this is possible is it possible for "files" to be shared between the OS partitions while they are running? Also, will AIX work with the existing 3270 terminals, or does one need to add ASCII terminals for AIX? I don't know all that much about IBM mainframes, and our company is too small to buy even a small one. We do however have a client who wants our U*IX product to "run" on his mainframe. I was just wondering if we could easily port it to AIX. Reply here or mail me: sun!unisoft!raven!dave thanks.
ronnie@eddie.MIT.EDU (Ron Schnell) (09/18/89)
As I am a developer on AIX/370 which is due for release in the first
quarter of 1990, I will limit my response to information already released
to the industry and news media.
AIX/370 will run on all IBM System 370 machines and WILL be able to
run alongside the other VM operating systems. AIX/370 will also
come with NFS/370 which WILL allow the sharing of files between all
of the operating systems which support NFS to the extent
required.
--
#Ron
(ronnie@mit-eddie.{UUCP,ARPA})
Home: (213) 470 - 9639
Office: (213) 338 - 7834tli@sargas.usc.edu (Tony Li) (09/18/89)
Does anyone out there know if one could run AIX on a mainframe (IBM370)
while also running OSes like MVS, CICS, and TSO?
Yes, but you have to run VM underneath all of them.
If this is possible
is it possible for "files" to be shared between the OS partitions
while they are running?
Only via NFS. And judging by what I've seen so far, that won't be
transparent or evey reasonably useful.
Also, will AIX work with the existing 3270
terminals, or does one need to add ASCII terminals for AIX?
AIX requires that users be on ASCII terminals connected through the
network. There is no 7171 support. Yet.
Tony Li - USC University Computing Services
Internet: tli@usc.edu Uucp: usc!tli Bitnet: tli@gamera, tli@ramoth
This is a test. This is a only a test. In the event of a real life
you would have been given instructions.oleg@gryphon.COM (Oleg Kiselev) (09/18/89)
In article <13676@well.UUCP> sebic@well.UUCP (Dave Truckenmiller) writes: >Does anyone out there know if one could run AIX on a mainframe (IBM370) >while also running OSes like MVS, CICS, and TSO? Yes. AIX currently runs as a guest on a VM of its own, in no way interfering with other virtual machines. >If this is possible >is it possible for "files" to be shared between the OS partitions >while they are running? Not quite. Or rather, yes, but there are peculiarities. From AIX, one can go into CP mode of the VM and access files and devices strictly via VM. The access can be interactive or non-interactive. If the former, the system behaves as if you were accessing a pure VM. In the latter case, the output of the VM command can be piped to a UNIX program on AIX side. This means that you can't open a file on a CMS disk from your UNIX program by doing open(), but there is no reason why a driver can not be written to access a CMS or MVS or TSO disk s a raw device and do file access according to that OS's idea of a file system layout. >Also, will AIX work with the existing 3270 >terminals, or does one need to add ASCII terminals for AIX? Yes, you can use a 3270, but there are problems. First, there is a problem with a block mode terminal interacting with an inheretly character stream system. Using vi(1) is possible but hardly pleasant. Some software uses the full-screen block mode 3270 with some amount of grace (there is a modification to curses and terminfo and driver support for that mod to allow full-screen controllable access to the 3270), but there is no editor that would use all of the features of the 3270 and work around all the deficiencies of this (in my opinion) brain-damaged terminal Second, there is a basic flaw in the very concept of VM that presumes that the guest OS is a single-user, single-process system. AIX circumvents this flaw by making AIX site the "single user" and the UNIX system the "single process" on the virtual machine. However, AIX is not capable of allowing more than one console on the VM. So only one 3270 terminal, the "console" from which the AIX site was logged in, can be truly "directly" connected to the site. Other 3270 terminals would need to be attached to other virtual machines. If such "other" VM is running AIX and is on the same TCF cluster, all file access and resource use is transparent between sites and for all intents and purposes, you can say that there are multiple 3270s accessing the system. If these "other" VMs are not AIX or are in another AIX cluster, telnet and rlogin would let the 3270 be connected to the site via BSD-style pseudo terminals (pty). Of course, if you have at least one PS/2 running AIX/TCF, you can hang some 2 dosen or so terminals on it and do all your access to your 370 AIX through a "normal" UNIX style ASCII terminal. >We do however have a client who >wants our U*IX product to "run" on his mainframe. I was just >wondering if we could easily port it to AIX. Most probably yes. AIX is very close to both System V and 4.3 BSD. If you are not doing anything sVr3-like (streams) and have written your code in a more or less portable way, you should have no problems at all. -- "No regrets, no apologies" Ronald Reagan Oleg Kiselev ARPA: lcc.oleg@seas.ucla.edu, oleg@gryphon.COM (213)337-5230 UUCP: [world]!{ucla-se|gryphon}!lcc!oleg
oleg@lcc.la.Locus.COM (Oleg Kiselev) (09/19/89)
Let me correct something I said in the previous article. In article <20027@gryphon.COM> oleg@gryphon.COM (Oleg Kiselev) writes: >Second, there is a basic flaw in the very concept of VM that presumes that >the guest OS is a single-user, single-process system. This is not true for VM. I was thinking about CMS and for some reason (lack of sleep? brain damage?) confused it with VM. VM allows multiple 3270 terminals to access a virtual machine by using "DIAL xxxx" style of login. As AIX/370 exists now and will be shipped, there is no "normal" 3270 driver, just a "console" driver, so there will not be a capability to "dial" an AIX virtual machine from several 3270 terminals. However, there is nothing to prevent OEMs from writing their own drivers. -- -- Oleg Kiselev I speak for myself only. (213)337-5230
paul@cscnj.csc.COM (Paul Moody) (09/23/89)
I dont know how relevant this is to this discussion, but Amdahl's UTS does support 3270's. We had no major problems porting code from a 386 to to a Amdahl 580. -- Paul Moody @CSC ...usual disclaimer...
jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM (Jack F. Vogel) (09/24/89)
In article <321@cscnj.csc.COM> paul@cscnj.csc.COM (Paul Moody) writes: > >I dont know how relevant this is to this discussion, >but Amdahl's UTS does support 3270's. The reason that UTS could support 3270's is that it runs native. AIX, on the other hand runs as a guest under VM. As Oleg pointed out, this means that AIX370 is just another user logged onto the system and running an operating system. Since VM/CMS does not allow multiple logons of the same user id this precludes multiple 3270 access to the system. However, if the installation has VM TCP/IP installed, any regular user could simply telnet or rlogin to AIX over the network. Disclaimer: this is not an official statement, my opinions only. -- Jack F. Vogel jackv@seas.ucla.edu AIX Technical Support - or - Locus Computing Corp. jackv@ifs.umich.edu
mat@uts.amdahl.com (Mike Taylor) (09/24/89)
In article <6368@turnkey.gryphon.COM>, jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM (Jack F. Vogel) writes: > In article <321@cscnj.csc.COM> paul@cscnj.csc.COM (Paul Moody) writes: > > > >I dont know how relevant this is to this discussion, > >but Amdahl's UTS does support 3270's. > > The reason that UTS could support 3270's is that it runs native. AIX, on > the other hand runs as a guest under VM. As Oleg pointed out, this means > that AIX370 is just another user logged onto the system and running an > operating system. Since VM/CMS does not allow multiple logons of the same > user id this precludes multiple 3270 access to the system. However, if > the installation has VM TCP/IP installed, any regular user could simply > telnet or rlogin to AIX over the network. Actually, UTS supports multiple 3270s under VM also. VM permits a 3270 user to "dial" a virtual machine that offers multiple 3270 connections ( as UTS does). It is not necessary to logon to VM to use the dial command. -- Mike Taylor ...!{hplabs,amdcad,sun}!amdahl!mat [ This may not reflect my opinion, let alone anyone else's. ]
skl@van-bc.UUCP (Samuel Lam) (09/24/89)
In article <6368@turnkey.gryphon.COM>, jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM wrote: >In article <321@cscnj.csc.COM> paul@cscnj.csc.COM (Paul Moody) writes: >>I dont know how relevant this is to this discussion, >>but Amdahl's UTS does support 3270's. > >The reason that UTS could support 3270's is that it runs native. AIX, on >the other hand runs as a guest under VM. A virtural machine (guest) under VM could have multiple 3270-style terminals attached "directly". You can get to these 3270's via the DIAL command at the VM logo, or you can have the guest operating system claim them directly when it is IPL'ed. One system that can run both as a VM guest and support mutilple 3270's at the same time is MTS (Michigan Terminal System). I supposed the reason AIX isn't supporting mutliple 3270's is because its implementor had choosen not to. ...Sam -- Samuel Lam <skl@wimsey.bc.ca> or {uunet,ubc-cs}!wimsey.bc.ca!skl
terry@uts.amdahl.com (Lewis T. Flynn) (09/24/89)
In article <6368@turnkey.gryphon.COM> jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM writes: >Since VM/CMS does not allow multiple logons of the same >user id this precludes multiple 3270 access to the system. True, CP does not allow you to have multiple logons to the same userid, but that doesn't preclude you from having lots of 3270's accessing an operating system running in a virtual machine. Just attach them to the vm and they'll see the OS's logon screen or a user can dial to the vm and get the same results. Now if AIX doesn't support more than one 3270, then that is AIX's fault, not CP's. CMS only supports one terminal, but that is because CMS is a single user, single process operating system. Please note that I have no knowledge one way or the other of AIX's capabilities, I'm speaking as a long time VM user. Terry
njs@scifi.UUCP (Nicholas J. Simicich) (09/24/89)
In article <6368@turnkey.gryphon.COM> jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM writes: [.....] >The reason that UTS could support 3270's is that it runs native. AIX, on >the other hand runs as a guest under VM. As Oleg pointed out, this means >that AIX370 is just another user logged onto the system and running an >operating system. Since VM/CMS does not allow multiple logons of the same >user id this precludes multiple 3270 access to the system. However, if >the installation has VM TCP/IP installed, any regular user could simply >telnet or rlogin to AIX over the network. Running native has nothing to do with whether or not 3270's can be supported. VM has a command called "dial" that allows a ordinary user on a 3270 terminal to virtually attach to a guest operating system so that their terminal appears local to that guest operating system. This command is used to access second level MVS or DOS/VSE systems, as well as specialized servers which support 3270 protocols, such as PVM. This function is pretty much available to the ordinary user. I suspect that the actual fact is that the 3270 support just wasn't done. What would you run there? None of the ordinary editors are going to run except ed or ex, and those just aren't popular in the face of vi or emacs. Curses based stuff presumes a full duplex tty, without the "attribute byte" kludge, so it isn't going to run either. >Disclaimer: this is not an official statement, my opinions only. And neither is this. -- Nick Simicich --- uunet!bywater!scifi!njs --- njs@ibm.com (Internet)
oleg@gryphon.COM (Oleg Kiselev) (09/24/89)
In article <303@van-bc.UUCP> skl@wimsey.bc.ca (Samuel Lam) writes: >I supposed the reason AIX isn't supporting mutliple 3270's is because >its implementor had choosen not to. Let's set something straight here. As it stands now, AIX/370 does not allow one to DIAL to it (as far as I know). There is no reason for why there isn't such a thing except that it was not asked for. I do not know how complicated it would be to write a driver for it, but I was assured by people who I trust in such matters that it is not too difficult. On the other hand, if you have TCP/IP package on your VM, you can telnet or rlogin to the AIX/370 host and use 3270 to do that. -- "No regrets, no apologies" Ronald Reagan Oleg Kiselev ARPA: lcc.oleg@seas.ucla.edu, oleg@gryphon.COM (213)337-5230 UUCP: [world]!{ucla-se|gryphon}!lcc!oleg
jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM (Jack F. Vogel) (09/25/89)
In article <784@scifi.UUCP> njs@scifi.UUCP (Nicholas J. Simicich) writes: >In article <6368@turnkey.gryphon.COM> jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM writes: > [ my hasty oversimplified remarks deleted...] > >Running native has nothing to do with whether or not 3270's can be >supported. VM has a command called "dial" that allows a ordinary user >on a 3270 terminal to virtually attach to a guest operating system so >that their terminal appears local to that guest operating system. >This command is used to access second level MVS or DOS/VSE systems, as >well as specialized servers which support 3270 protocols, such as PVM. >This function is pretty much available to the ordinary user. To all those who responded....OK, OK, I spoke in hast and obviously as a relative newcomer to VM. I admit I had overlooked the normal DIAL facility. In the face of that I will have to reinvestigate my pat answer for why multiple 3270 support was not done. It may have been an arbitrary decision as one poster suggested or perhaps there was a deeper reason. If I learn anything useful I will post the answer. >I suspect that the actual fact is that the 3270 support just wasn't >done. What would you run there? None of the ordinary editors are >going to run except ed or ex, and those just aren't popular in the >face of vi or emacs. Curses based stuff presumes a full duplex tty, >without the "attribute byte" kludge, so it isn't going to run either. Not a bad stab at a reason Nick, however we do actually provide a 3270 terminfo module, and you can run vi on the 3270 console although it behaves so strangely that I can't imagine anyone wanting to use it other than to say "See it can be done.". This whole thing has peaked my interest in the matter and I am going to try and find a definite answer. As for curses, Oleg could elaborate on this since he worked on this code, the installation/maintenance package actually does full screen menus with highlighting and such on the 3270 console. Not to say it isn't a kludge but we have done it. To Mike and Terry from Amdahl, since I have never used UTS, I am curious. You say it supports 3270 access, how does it handle their block-mode nature with regard to vi and the like? I have seen MTS at U of M and I don't think it has this problem since it is set up for such terminals, rather than running software designed in the async world (again, I could be wrong here since I only had a brief glance at it). Disclaimer: obviously my opinions only -- Jack F. Vogel jackv@seas.ucla.edu AIX Technical Support - or - Locus Computing Corp. jackv@ifs.umich.edu
terry@uts.amdahl.com (Lewis T. Flynn) (09/25/89)
In article <6371@turnkey.gryphon.COM> jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM writes: >To Mike and Terry from Amdahl, since I have never used UTS, I am >curious. You say it supports 3270 access, how does it handle their >block-mode nature with regard to vi and the like? I have seen MTS >at U of M and I don't think it has this problem since it is set up >for such terminals, rather than running software designed in the >async world (again, I could be wrong here since I only had a brief >glance at it). UTS allows you to run vi on a 3270, but I would recommend it only for the masochistically inclined. 3270 users run ned, an editor designed for 3270 use. It resembles xedit and ISPF/PDF but mostly because all three were constrained by the 3270. I use both ned and vi for my editing and find that for some kinds of tasks, I prefer one and for different tasks I prefer the other. Both are usable. Terry I'm still speaking as a user.
dwl10@uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) (09/26/89)
In article <f4Rk02dr59I001@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> terry@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Lewis T. Flynn) writes: >In article <6371@turnkey.gryphon.COM> jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM writes: >>To Mike and Terry from Amdahl, since I have never used UTS, I am >>curious. You say it supports 3270 access, how does it handle their >>block-mode nature with regard to vi and the like? I have seen MTS >>at U of M and I don't think it has this problem since it is set up >>for such terminals, rather than running software designed in the >>async world (again, I could be wrong here since I only had a brief >>glance at it). > >UTS allows you to run vi on a 3270, but I would recommend it only >for the masochistically inclined. 3270 users run ned, an editor >designed for 3270 use. It resembles xedit and ISPF/PDF but mostly >because all three were constrained by the 3270. I use both ned and >vi for my editing and find that for some kinds of tasks, I prefer >one and for different tasks I prefer the other. Both are usable. > >Terry > >I'm still speaking as a user. Just a reminder.... UTS also supports full duplex ASCII terminals. This can be done in several ways, including Ethernet, and our UTS/F full duplex software and a 4705 FEP. The full duplex mode supports vi, emacs, curses, terminfo, etc. It also will emulate a 3270, so that applications that need 3270s can be accessed from full duplex terminals. -- "What is another word | Dave Lowrey | [The opinions expressed MAY be for 'Thesaurus'?" | Amdahl Corp. | those of the author and are not | Houston, Texas | necessarily those of his Steven Wright | amdahl!dwl10 | employer] (`nuff said!)
terry@uts.amdahl.com (Lewis T. Flynn) (09/26/89)
In article <02Vo02th5a=301@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> dwl10@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Dave Lowrey) writes: >In article <f4Rk02dr59I001@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> terry@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Lewis T. Flynn) writes: >>because all three were constrained by the 3270. I use both ned and >>vi for my editing and find that for some kinds of tasks, I prefer >>one and for different tasks I prefer the other. Both are usable. >> >>Terry > >Just a reminder.... UTS also supports full duplex ASCII terminals. This I should have mentioned that when I use vi (or emacs or ...), I'm not on a 3270, but on an ASCII terminal (well, telnet actually). Terry <usual disclaimer>
sbf10@uts.amdahl.com (Samuel Fuller) (09/26/89)
In article <6368@turnkey.gryphon.COM> jackv@turnkey.gryphon.COM writes: >In article <321@cscnj.csc.COM> paul@cscnj.csc.COM (Paul Moody) writes: >> >>I dont know how relevant this is to this discussion, >>but Amdahl's UTS does support 3270's. > >The reason that UTS could support 3270's is that it runs native. AIX, on >the other hand runs as a guest under VM. As Oleg pointed out, this means Correction: UTS runs either native or as a VM guest. 3270 support has little or nothing to do with what is under the system. I'am not sure what AIX's problem is. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sam Fuller / Amdahl System Performance Architecture I speak for myself, from the brown hills of San Jose. UUCP: {ames,decwrl,uunet}!amdahl!sbf10 | USPS: 1250 E. Arques Ave (M/S 139) INTERNET: sbf10@amdahl.com | P.O. Box 3470 PHONE: (408) 746-8927 | Sunnyvale, CA 94088-3470 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------