meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) (02/21/90)
In article <1148@gort.cs.utexas.edu> jason@cs.utexas.edu (Jason Martin Levitt) writes: |In article <5098@brazos.Rice.edu> schafer@brazos.rice.edu (Richard A. Schafer) writes: |>Powerstation 320 $7475 |>120MB disk $1950 |>Grayscale adapter $1395 |>keyboard $ 255 |>mouse $ 130 |>mono display $1295 |> ------ Hardware total, $12,500 |>AIX 3.0 $1250 |>AIX Xwindows $ 500 |> ------ Software total, $ 1,750 |> Package total, $14,250 |> | |Add a SCSI adapter and large hard disk please == $$$$$. OK, let's DO get real. Figure in a ~300 MB SCSI disk, not that jive 120 MB unit. Also an ethernet card. And a SCSI 60MB tape backup unit. I'm talking standalone or server systems. And what is the resolution of that mono display? The size? Now, what comes with the software? TCP/IP, I assume (what about rcp, rsh (or rcmd), and the other remote commands?) What about NFS? YP? SMTP-based mail? Sendmail? Developers' software (C, dbx, sccs, yacc, lex, curses, etc)? Awk? uucp? An online, hypertext information system? System administration package? SCSI tape drivers? Easy addition of non-IBM SCSI disks? Troff? What about net monitoring stuff (such as traffic, netstat, etc)? What about something like sar (SV) or vmstat (4.x)? We never found anything like that in the AIX for the PS/2. (IBM refuses to list their add-on software in a fashion that makes sense to a unix person, so you often can't tell whether you CAN get what you want, even for more money.) Which version of X are they supporting? How do they do on the X benchmark that's been out on the net? Which X libraries do they provide? What about clients? In the past, IBM has been real big on unbundling (not that they are the only ones). What did they do this time? In other words, if we are going to compare the new RT++ to a Sun (or DEC, DG, HP, whatever), let's be sure and compare equivalent systems. Finally, has anybody done any independent benchmarks? I'd like to see some comparisons against the competition by someone other than IBM. AN ASIDE What about (yuk) DOS? Software (and hardware if necessary) to run DOS. It's gross, I know, but it comes with some other systems (or is available) and some people need it. -Miles O'Neal {yr fave backbone here}!emory!stiatl!meo
marc@stingray..austin.ibm.com (Marc J. Stephenson/140000;1C-22) (02/21/90)
In article <9077@stiatl.UUCP> meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) writes: [ stuff about hardware configurations and prices deleted ] > >And what is the resolution of that mono display? The size? 1280x1024, 19", displays 16 shades of gray, palette of 256, with 2D draw rate of 72,000 lines/second. >Now, what comes with the software? TCP/IP, I assume (what about rcp, >rsh (or rcmd), and the other remote commands?) What about >NFS? YP? SMTP-based mail? Sendmail? Developers' software (C, dbx, >sccs, yacc, lex, curses, etc)? Awk? uucp? An online, hypertext >information system? System administration package? SCSI tape >drivers? Easy addition of non-IBM SCSI disks? Troff? My source, the RISC System/6000 Quick Pricer (comes with a disclaimer that information was current as of 2/90 but subject to change without notice), is unclear about the ultimate packaging of the software. AIX 3.0 has Ethernet and Token Ring Support, TCP/IP, Mail, National Language Support, and Softcopy documentation listed among "Additional Highlights". C compiler and a "basic set of application development tools," and NFS and NCS support are mentioned previous to that heading. rcp, rsh, NFS, YP, Sendmail, C, dbx, sccs, yacc, lex, curses, awk, uucp, hypertext, scsi tape drivers, system admin stuff, troff? All are there. I don't know about SMTP-based mail, and I'm no expert on SCSI, so I won't speculate about that. > >What about net monitoring stuff (such as traffic, netstat, etc)? >What about something like sar (SV) or vmstat (4.x)? sar and netstat are there. I don't see traffic or vmstat on my system. > >Which version of X are they supporting? How do they do on the X >benchmark that's been out on the net? Which X libraries do they provide? Quick Pricer doesn't say much about AIXwindows Environment/6000. The Xstation 120 information mentions version 11 release 3. > >In the past, IBM has been real big on unbundling (not that they >are the only ones). What did they do this time? In other words, >if we are going to compare the new RT++ to a Sun (or DEC, DG, HP, >whatever), let's be sure and compare equivalent systems. All of what I mentioned above is part of AIX Version 3 for RISC System/6000. Several pieces are separately installable, presumably because some people don't need some of the parts. Separate software offerings include various Graphics, Language (FORTRAN, COBOL, Pascal, & Ada), Communications (SNA, Host Connect, PC Simulator, other), and Data Base (INGRES and SQL stuff). >Finally, has anybody done any independent benchmarks? I'd like to >see some comparisons against the competition by someone other than >IBM. C heck out the SPec (sp?) numbers. >AN ASIDE >What about (yuk) DOS? Software (and hardware if necessary) >to run DOS. It's gross, I know, but it comes with some other >systems (or is available) and some people need it. I'm unsure about the offerings in this area. There is a PC Simulator (AIX Personal Computer Simulator 6000) available. > >-Miles O'Neal >{yr fave backbone here}!emory!stiatl!meo As I've mentioned before, all of the information supplied is done on my own as a service, and should not be used to replace any information which is available through an authorized IBM Representative. All information supplied is subject to change without notice. Marc Stephenson (marc@stingray.austin.ibm.com) Location: F57/992, (79)3-3796, ZIP 2401, 1C-22/992, Austin, Texas Internal: marc@stingray.austin.ibm.com VNET: MARC at AUSVM6 External: uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ibmaus!auschs!stingray.austin.ibm.com!marc
drake@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake) (02/22/90)
In article <9077@stiatl.UUCP> meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) writes: >OK, let's DO get real. Figure in a ~300 MB SCSI disk, not that >jive 120 MB unit. Also an ethernet card. And a SCSI 60MB tape >backup unit. I'm talking standalone or server systems. First, let's note that I'm not an official spokesman; all the following is my own opinion. The $12,995 system includes the 120MB drive and an Ethernet card. This system should be self-sufficient in a networked (NFS) environment, but I'll grant you that more disk would probably be essential in a stand-alone configuration. >And what is the resolution of that mono display? The size? Resolution of ALL RISC System/6000 displays and adapters is 1280x1024. The greyscale adapter displays 8 shades of grey simultaneously. The monitors are all 19". >Now, what comes with the software? TCP/IP, I assume (what about rcp, >rsh (or rcmd), and the other remote commands?) What about >NFS? YP? SMTP-based mail? Sendmail? Developers' software (C, dbx, >sccs, yacc, lex, curses, etc)? Awk? uucp? An online, hypertext >information system? System administration package? SCSI tape >drivers? Easy addition of non-IBM SCSI disks? Troff? I believe the answer to all of the above is "it's in there". >What about net monitoring stuff (such as traffic, netstat, etc)? Netstat is certainly there, I don't know about "traffic". >What about something like sar (SV) or vmstat (4.x)? We never >found anything like that in the AIX for the PS/2. I believe that sar is included. >Which version of X are they supporting? How do they do on the X >benchmark that's been out on the net? Which X libraries do they provide? >What about clients? The X is 11.3, I don't know about benchmark results. I believe that the Motif widgets are standard, along with many of the standard samples from the MIT tape. >AN ASIDE >What about (yuk) DOS? Software (and hardware if necessary) >to run DOS. A separately priced product simulates a real-mode 80286 in software and allows DOS software to run. Sam Drake / IBM Almaden Research Center Internet: drake@ibm.com BITNET: DRAKE at ALMADEN Usenet: ...!uunet!ibmarc!drake Phone: (408) 927-1861
meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) (02/23/90)
(Marc J. Stephenson) answers my questions: Thank you! This "personal service" you are providing has done more to get my attention that anything IBM has officially said, or anyone else in this group has said. I must admit I'm still skeptical, but not as much as before. |(Miles O'Neal) writes: | My source, the RISC System/6000 Quick Pricer (comes with a | disclaimer that information was current as of 2/90 but subject | to change without notice), is unclear about the ultimate packaging | of the software. AIX 3.0 has Ethernet and Token Ring Support, TCP/IP, | Mail, National Language Support, and Softcopy documentation listed | among "Additional Highlights". C compiler and a "basic set of | application development tools," and NFS and NCS support are mentioned | previous to that heading. | | rcp, rsh, NFS, YP, Sendmail, C, dbx, sccs, yacc, lex, curses, awk, uucp, | hypertext, scsi tape drivers, system admin stuff, troff? All are there. | I don't know about SMTP-based mail, and I'm no expert on SCSI, so I won't | speculate about that. So the QP implies it all comes with the base OS? No extra charge? |>What about net monitoring stuff (such as traffic, netstat, etc)? |>What about something like sar (SV) or vmstat (4.x)? | sar and netstat are there. I don't see traffic or vmstat on my system. Traffic appears to be a Sunism. It graphs ether traffic over time to help monitor/debug a LAN. Vmstat isn't really necessary with sar available. | All of what I mentioned above is part of AIX Version 3 for | RISC System/6000. Several pieces are separately installable, | presumably because some people don't need some of the parts. | Separate software offerings include various Graphics, Language | (FORTRAN, COBOL, Pascal, & Ada), Communications (SNA, Host Connect, | PC Simulator, other), and Data Base (INGRES and SQL stuff). If this is correct (and doesn't get hit by "subject to change" too soon 8^) then one of my arguments definately goes away! -Miles
meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) (02/23/90)
(Sam Drake) writes: |(Miles O'Neal) writes: (stuff Marc Stephenson already answered deleted - not that I don't appreciate these answers, too!) |The X is 11.3, I don't know about benchmark results. I believe that |the Motif widgets are standard, along with many of the standard samples |from the MIT tape. | ... | |A separately priced product simulates a real-mode 80286 in software |and allows DOS software to run. Thank you, sir. Sounds like this one actually has it all out of the box! A pleasant surprise. Now I guess we wait and see how well it works! -Miles
rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) (02/23/90)
drake@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake) writes: > The $12,995 system includes the 120MB drive and an Ethernet card. > This system should be self-sufficient in a networked (NFS) environment, > but I'll grant you that more disk would probably be essential in a > stand-alone configuration. I can parse this statement, but it gets a little confused in the semantic analyzer. How is it that "self-sufficient" is contrasted with "stand- alone"?? I.e., if you need more disk somewhere to support you, you don't seem very self-sufficient. Sam, I'm not so much wondering about your conjecture (which I fully under- stand is not an official position) as what IBM's view is. Is the $13 K configuration a standalone? If so, why does it have Ethernet bundled in? If it's not standalone, we should be comparing prices and performance of these machines to other network-y workstations (including diskless)...but in that case, 120 Mb of local storage is a fair bit. OK, it's a fast machine, so maybe it deserves 120 Mb in a networked setup with the rest of its disk on a server...but then we're back to not looking at this machine (and its price) in isolation...we have to add on a fraction of a server's cost to get a real price per station. Can someone explain the positioning of this low-end machine? At the moment, Sam's statement has left me not so much skeptical as confused. -- Dick Dunn rcd@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870 ...Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.
mikulska@odin.ucsd.edu (Margaret Mikulska) (02/25/90)
In article <1580@awdprime.UUCP> marc@awdprime.austin.ibm.com.UUCP (Marc J. Stephenson) writes: >In article <9077@stiatl.UUCP> meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) writes: >[ stuff about hardware configurations and prices deleted ] > >>Now, what comes with the software? TCP/IP, I assume [...] Speaking of which, could anybody elaborate on networking utilities coming with AIX 3.x ? In particular, I'm interested how compatible 6000 is in this respect with Sun networking environment. Another question: I heard that AIX doesn't have 'dump' or 'restore'. What backup utilities do they have then ? Do they support 150 MB QIC-150 cartridge drives ? What about Exabyte drives ? thanks Margaret Mikulska UC San Diego Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering mikulska@cs.ucsd.edu
drake@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake) (02/25/90)
In article <1990Feb23.080752.8245@ico.isc.com> rcd@ico.isc.com (Dick Dunn) writes: >drake@sd2.almaden.ibm.com (Sam Drake) writes: >> The $12,995 system includes the 120MB drive and an Ethernet card. >> This system should be self-sufficient in a networked (NFS) environment, >> but I'll grant you that more disk would probably be essential in a >> stand-alone configuration. > >I can parse this statement, but it gets a little confused in the semantic >analyzer. Um...on re-reading my earlier statement, it certainly is a bit confusing. Sorry! Let me try again: This system should find many uses in a networked (NFS) environment, but I'll grand you that more disk would probably be essential in a stand-alone configuration. I'm certainly not speaking for my employer, but it seems to me that a system with an Ethernet connection and minimal disk capacity has a place (mount most files remotely). Without the Ethernet more DASD might be highly desirable. That's the nice thing about having everything be separately priced; if you don't need Ethernet, don't put it in. If you need more disk, put it in. But a credible configuration, for some environments, costs $12,995. Sam Drake / IBM Almaden Research Center Internet: drake@ibm.com BITNET: DRAKE at ALMADEN Usenet: ...!uunet!ibmarc!drake Phone: (408) 927-1861
ehrlich@cs.psu.edu (Daniel Ehrlich) (02/26/90)
In article <7887@sdcsvax.UCSD.Edu> mikulska@odin.ucsd.edu (Margaret Mikulska) writes: Marg> In article <1580@awdprime.UUCP> marc@awdprime.austin.ibm.com.UUCP (Marc J. Stephenson) writes: >In article <9077@stiatl.UUCP> meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) writes: >[ stuff about hardware configurations and prices deleted ] > >>Now, what comes with the software? TCP/IP, I assume [...] Marg> Speaking of which, could anybody elaborate on networking utilities coming Marg> with AIX 3.x ? In particular, I'm interested how compatible 6000 is in Marg> this respect with Sun networking environment. It has all of the 'Berkeley' programs. And seems to work fairly well with both Suns and IBM RTs. Marg> Another question: Marg> I heard that AIX doesn't have 'dump' or 'restore'. What backup utilities Marg> do they have then ? Both dump and restore exist and are similar to the AIX 2.2.1 versions, but some of the arguments are different. Marg> Do they support 150 MB QIC-150 cartridge drives ? What about Exabyte drives ? The one I have came with a 150MB QIC tape, but it is written in a format that does not appear to be compatible with other 150MB drives. -- Dan Ehrlich <ehrlich@cs.psu.edu> Voice: +1 814 863 1142 FAX: +1 814 865 3176
oleg@electra.la.locus.com.la.locus.com (Oleg Kiselev) (03/01/90)
>> I heard that AIX doesn't have 'dump' or 'restore'. What backup utilities >> do they have then ? >Both dump and restore exist and are similar to the AIX 2.2.1 versions, but >some of the arguments are different. There are also BSD-compatible dump and restore, called "dumpbsd" and "restorebsd." -- DISCLAIMER: I speak for myself only, unless otherwise indicated. "No regrets, no apologies" -- R.Reagan Oleg Kiselev lcc!oleg@seas.ucla.edu, oleg@locus.com (213)337-5230 ...!{uunet|att|ucla-se|turnkey|alphacm}!lcc!oleg