lauren@vortex.UUCP (Lauren Weinstein) (07/09/84)
In all demonstrations of firewalking that I've seen, there is a bed of wet grass or moss around the coals. At least one researcher has claimed that the film of moisture on the feet that is obtained when standing on the grass (before the walk) is the real reason that no burning occurs for most people. To demonstrate, he did the firewalk himself, without any "psychological preparation" of the sort promoted by the firewalking fans. --Lauren [A little bondage is OK, but I'm not into pain]--
crane@fortune.UUCP (John Crane) (07/09/84)
Why put on a show? "Whee look at me! I can walk on fire! See how good I am. See how I have developed my mind! etc. etc." Horseshit! On both the Californians and the Indians. When you're good, you're good. You don't need to put on shows to prove it to yourself or anybody else. If you need to continually reinforce your abilities for yourself and others, it shows that you probably doubt them. In the words of Rush: "Nothing in my pockets and nothing up my sleeve. I keep my magic in my heart." John "trying to bring a little sanity to the network" Crane
barry@ames-lm.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (07/10/84)
[] > In all demonstrations of firewalking that I've seen, there is a bed > of wet grass or moss around the coals. At least one researcher has > claimed that the film of moisture on the feet that is obtained when > standing on the grass (before the walk) is the real reason that > no burning occurs for most people. To demonstrate, he did the > firewalk himself, without any "psychological preparation" of the > sort promoted by the firewalking fans. We may have seen the same guy. The one I saw was a physics teacher who liked to put a little showmanship into his act. In addition to firewalking, he took a gulp of liquid nitrogen (without swallowing) and exhaled the vapors, and also put his (wet) hand in a beaker of molten lead! All these dramatic acts demonstrate the same physical principle, though I don't recall the name; 'twas named after the guy who first discovered it, though (help, please, physicists?). The basic idea is that the water or liquid nitrogen, when put next to something *far* hotter than it is, flash-vaporizes so quickly that a protecting layer of vapor stands between the skin or tongue and the offending substance. There is an easy kitchen demonstration of the effect that involves no risk to life and limb. Put an empty skillet on the stove and heat it good and hot; then sprinkle a few drops of water in it. The drops will skate around the pan on their vapor cushion, and will boil away much more slowly than if the skillet were only moderately hot. I would *not* recommend any of the more dramatic demonstrations mentioned above. - From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry NASA-Ames Research Center Moffett Field, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barry
opus@drutx.UUCP (ShanklandJA) (07/10/84)
It will be a cold day in hell when you catch ME walking on a hot bed of coals. Jim Shankland ..!ihnp4!druxy!opus
trb@masscomp.UUCP (07/11/84)
Oh come on. Firewalking is old news. The high tech he-man cuts off his penis with a laser, nukes it in a microwave oven, takes it to the hospital in a styrofoam beer cooler, and has it reattached with microsurgery. After I did it last month, I looked in my dictionary, and the word "fear" had actually disappeared. God's honest truth. Maybe you Silicon Valley Guys can't handle it, but that's what we're into out here on route 128, America's Technology Highway. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274
steiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (07/11/84)
****
According to my mail, there are several netlanders that
firewalk. Apparently the methods vary. In my earlier posting
I mentioned that psychological preparation was necessary, and
that view was challanged. I have never done it, but my friends
that have all did it under the direction of John Grinder, who
is a well known hypnotist. He teaches hypnosis to therapists
and worked closely with Milton Erickson. At firewalks he
leads he prepares people. He believes it is necessary.
Because of this, the people I knew that walked were prepared.
Suppose a person's state of physiology did not have any influence
over the physical ramafications of walking on hot coals. How would
we find out? If a person says "I don't need to do anything
special, I can just walk across hot coals," and then the person
walks across hot coals, it is not obvious to me that that is not
an special state of mind. I wonder if we drug the same person out
of bed with a hangover and sent them across the same coals, would the
person would be as sucessful? The only test I can think of is
if in the same situation some people get 3d degree burns and others
get no burns at all. This has happened. I think it is an example of how
much the human body can take (the people I have talked to that walked
said that it was HOT), and control over the autonomic nervous system.
Maybe preparing for the event psychologically is not necessary,
but from what I gather, it is the best part. What else could the
point be? They psyche themselves into a state that they believe they
can do anything and then they walk across hot coals!
As long as a walker does not
take the attitude that he or she can do something others can't and
instead takes that attitude that it is an example of human potential,
the potential of all humans, firewalking does not have to be
a "look at me" kind of a thing. It becomes a metaphor and personal resource.
Don Steiny
Personetics
109 Torrey Pine Terr.
Santa Cruz, Calif. 95060
(408) 425-0382
{ihnp4,harpo}!pesnta \
fortune!idsvax -- scc!steiny
ucbvax!twg /mauney@ncsu.UUCP (Jon Mauney) (07/11/84)
> We may have seen the same guy. The one I saw was a physics teacher > who liked to put a little showmanship into his act. In addition to firewalking > he took a gulp of liquid nitrogen (without swallowing) and exhaled the > vapors, and also put his (wet) hand in a beaker of molten lead! This same person wrote an article in Scientific American a while back in which he explained the principle. He also proposed a new final exam for physicists: line up the degree candidates along a bed of coals with the diplomas on the other side -- those who believe in the laws of physics will be willing to cross and pick up their diplomas. -- _Doctor_ Jon Mauney, mcnc!ncsu!mauney \__Mu__/ North Carolina State University
dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (07/11/84)
<>
The author of The Flying Circus of Physics was here a year or two ago and
described his own firewalking experiences. He contends walking on coals
is possible due to the effect (name escapes me) that allows ice to float on
a water vapor cushion on a frying pan. He claimed not to have had even a
sensation of heat. He did not consciously wet his feet first - he used
the sweat that was there. His "psychological preparation" consisted of
being scared out of his wits. In fact, when he became overconfident during
a later demonstration, he got burned. (No worry, no sweat!!)
Adam Smith (the current one) wrote an article (in Harper's??) making fun
of the "Scientific American" article attributing firewalking to this
vapor film, evidently considering it a case of scientific skepticism in
the face of the genuinely mystical. Smith claimed that the author had not
done the firewalking himself, which is not so! People really want to be
believers in the mystical and get all bent out of shape when someone tries
a debunking. As Schiller observed, "Against stupidity the very gods
themselves contend in vain!"
D Gary Grady
Duke University Computation Center, Durham, NC 27706
(919) 684-4146
USENET: {decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgarywetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) (07/11/84)
Is this the latest California craze? Learning to walk on fire is not the same as walking on water which you will need when Ca. slides off into the sea someday. Now, for $100.00 each, I will prepare you and your head for walking on water.
bill@utastro.UUCP (07/11/84)
> All these dramatic acts demonstrate the same physical principle, > though I don't recall the name; 'twas named after the guy who first discovered > it, though (help, please, physicists?). The basic idea is that the water > or liquid nitrogen, when put next to something *far* hotter than it is, > flash-vaporizes so quickly that a protecting layer of vapor stands between > the skin or tongue and the offending substance. It's the Leidenfrost Effect. I saw the person who stuck his finger in molten lead -- quite impressive! -- Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (uucp) utastro!bill@ut-ngp (ARPANET)
gamma@ih1ap.UUCP (n) (07/11/84)
So when is this man/concept coming to Chi? David l. Pope, Tenderfoot.
kroot@hercules.UUCP (Ken Root) (07/12/84)
I firewalked about a year ago, without any burns at all. I have a few ideas about it (no answers, though). The first point I would like to make is that it wasn't at all a "Gee look at me!" kind of thing. The point is to overcome fear, not physics. There was no ego satisfaction in telling my friends about it, they thought I was crazy to even try it. I mainly wanted to throw out for discussion my theory on why some people got burned while others didn't. One person in particular got burned severely. In watching him cross the coals, he seemed to walk like a samarei warrior going in to battle, with heavy, deliberate steps. He later mentioned something about wanting to prove to himself that the trick is more mental than how one crosses. That got me thinking, and I saw a trend. Other people that were a bit timid in taking the first step seemed to mostly get small burns in the front part of their soles. I noticed that as soon as these people hit the coals, they pushed off with the foot that first hit the coals, and that's where they got burned. I mainly concentrated on just getting to the other side, without any mental or mystical preparation other than a good foot massage to help the blood flow and hopefully dissapate heat. I also tried not to push off, but to walk smoothly with even surface pressure. I didn't even get singed, so I walked across a second time to be sure. My theory is that it has something to do with time of exposure and pounds/square inch. Obviously, walking across very quickly and always having one foot in the air helps, but what about pressure? Anyone else notice the people that panicked and sped up got burned? Oh, by the way, there was no water on the leading side of the pit. Just on the far side to wash off with. That wasn't the trick.
crm@rti-sel.UUCP (07/12/84)
In the Zen (and other mediatative) traditions, these little magic tricks are usually considered to be cute, but nothing to get too involved in, since they can become traps for the unwary -- i.e. it is too easy to get into these slippery little tricks and stop working towards Enlightenment. Firewalking is certainly on of these sorts of tricks. BTW, someone has suggested that dampness on the feet has some effect to make the firewalk possible. Consider: 1) the feet are being pressed into the coals with considerable force (as a guess, my feet would have about 12 lbs/ in^2). This seems to suggest that a thin film of dampness could not easily protect the feet. In any case, one is cautioned (in Japan at least, with Shingon Buddhist firewalking ritual) NOT to do it if you are not confident, and/or your feet are sweaty or damp. 2) Steam scalds very quickly, and steam burns are *very* painful. The only mechanism I can come up with for the dampness helping seems to include some quantity of steam with considerable direct heating right next to the skin. Also, a question -- John Crane: who is this ``Rush'' you are quoting? Sounds interesting, but I've no idea who the reference is to. Charlie Martin (..!mcnc!rti-sel!crm)
spaf@gatech.UUCP (07/13/84)
Firewalking -- pah! That's been around for centuries. Can't those
folks in California get out of their hottubs with something new? For
instance, how about breakdancing on hot coals? Now that would be a
feat of mental preparation!
Me, well I'm much more daring than that. For instance, I've thought
about going into meditation for a few days and then writing a Cobol
program. How about feeding a mango to a wombat? How about agreeing
with Charles about square waves in net.audio or joining the bigotry
discussion in net.singles? Now that's bizarre! Some of us defy death
and insanity every day just by reading and posting to netnews.
No firewalking at 55mph! Nuke the baby mangos til they glow! A wombat
in every pot (and the legal right to smoke that pot in your own
jello-wrestling pit)! Faggots, dykes and liberals built Stonehenge as
a monument to mind and memory! Rewrite VMS in BLKTRAN!
Awk! Time to go back into the cage.
Save the arithmetic IF!
--
Off the Wall of Gene Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332
Phone: (404) 894-6169, (404) 894-6170 [messages]
CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA
uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!spaf
...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!spaflmc@denelcor.UUCP (Lyle McElhaney) (07/15/84)
I find it somewhat hard to believe that the firewalking is real, but some time ago I saw a documentary in which the magician and parapsychological- debunker James Randi traveled to India to witness it. Before it started he threw a piece of paper on the bed, which instantly burned. After the performance he examined the feet, and found no blisters, and furthermore found that the feet were soft, not calloused. When it was done, he admitted that he could not explain how it might have been faked. Considering his reputation as a tough person to fool, I consider that weighty evidence that there is a lot about the body we don't understand (which is not making much of a statement; any reputable researcher would say the same thing). -- Lyle McElhaney (hao,brl-bmd,nbires,csu-cs,scgvaxd)!denelcor!lmc
elt@astrovax.UUCP (Ed Turner) (07/16/84)
The simplest nontechnical way to see that firewalking is a Liedenfrost effect trick based on elementary physics and not example of mind over body control (or any other semi-mystic explanation) is to note that 1) people not using any "mental techniques" can do it and most importantly 2) using the firewalking mental techniques will not let you escape the consequences of any of a large number of other normally painful acts, such as putting your feet on a less hot object (say a hot skillet) or receiving an electric shock, etc. Rationally firewalking should give ones psyche no more of a boost than say flying in an airplane in which one is "magically" suspended high in the air with no visible means of support. The physics is just a little less well known and a bit less reliable. Of course, as Demosthenes said, "We beleive what we wish to believe." Ed Turner astrovax!elt
moriarty@fluke.UUCP (07/17/84)
Is it any wonder why this man is considered a natural resource of the net?
Yours in silliness,
Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc.
UUCP:
{cornell,decvax,ihnp4,sdcsvax,tektronix,utcsrgv}!uw-beaver \
{allegra,gatech!sb1,hplabs!lbl-csam,decwrl!sun,ssc-vax} -- !fluke!moriarty
ARPA:
fluke!moriarty@uw-beaver.ARPAsteiny@scc.UUCP (Don Steiny) (07/17/84)
*** > 2) using the firewalking mental techniques will not let you escape the > consequences of any of a large number of other normally painful acts, > such as putting your feet on a less hot object (say a hot skillet) or > receiving an electric shock, etc. This is not correct. The "mental technique" used is hypnosis. Hypnosis has long been used for pain control and for altering autonomic functions like the formation of blisters. Thus if you burn yourself on an hot skillet, you can influence the pain and the formation of blisters. Milton Erickson, M.D. was considered to be the best medical hypnotist. The book "Uncommon Therapy" by Jay Haley is an academic discussion of his techniques sprinkled with facinating case histories. Two other books: "The Patterns of the Hypnotic Technique of Milton Erickson, M.D." Volumes one and two, explore the actual methods Erickson used. The books contain facinating case histories and an exerpt from a book by Erickson where Erickson and Aldous Huxely explore hypnosis. The books are by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. One person mentioned that firewalking was a trick in Zen and that students should not get caught up in the tricks. This is also true with Yoga. This is important. It is not an end it itself. We each have many possible states of "mind". Most people have times when they are incredibly confident and others where every action seems doomed. There is a strong connection between how we believe things will turn out and how they turn out. We each have times when we are in touch with all the personal resources necessary to see us through a situation and others when we do not. The idea is to be able to get in touch with a resource state when it is necessary. The mental preperation that is involved is convincing the participants that they can walk across the hot coals without injuring themselves. If a person already believes that, no additonal preperation is necessary. For the rest of us ... The goal is to learn how to convince onesself one can do things, and learn how to change ones beliefs. Don Steiny ucbvax!twg!scc!steiny ihnp4!pesnta!scc!steiny fortune!idsvax!scc!steiny
barry@ames-lm.UUCP (Kenn Barry) (07/18/84)
[]
To those who reject wet feet as the secret of firewalking (it's
called the "Leidenfrost Effect", by the way; thanks to the many netters
who were kind enough to respond to my question on this) because there
was no water or wet moss in sight: feet *sweat*, friends, especially
when you're standing near a bed of hot coals, and intending to walk across
it barefoot! I'm sure the whole thing's marvelous for the psyche (I'll
take your word for it), but there's nothing mysterious about the physics.
- From the Crow's Nest - Kenn Barry
NASA-Ames Research Center
Moffett Field, CA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electric Avenue: {dual,hao,menlo70,hplabs}!ames-lm!barrychris@umcp-cs.UUCP (07/19/84)
I heard this from a physics professor (memory is fuzzy so words likely
wrong, but meaning is same):
``I decided to try firewalking. The first time, I was really
nervous---so I sweated a lot, and the sweat evaporating from
my feet kept me from even feeling much heat. The second time
I was confident. After all, I had done it before! And since
I didn't sweat, I burned the **** out of my feet.''
Sounds like Whatzisname's Effect to me.
--
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci (301) 454-7690
UUCP: {seismo,allegra,brl-bmd}!umcp-cs!chris
CSNet: chris@umcp-cs ARPA: chris@marylandmark@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) (07/20/84)
> There is a strong connection between > how we believe things will turn out and how they turn out. > We each have times when we are in touch with all the personal > resources necessary to see us through a situation and others > when we do not. The idea is to be able to get in touch with > a resource state when it is necessary. I guess! I don't know if it made the national news or not, but the Ohio lottery just held a drawing among 10 winners, one of whom got $1M. One woman from Columbus got in only because she was first alternate and one of the regulars was on vacation and didn't check their PO box for 3 weeks. She was so confident that her husband quit his job, told everyone goodbye, she called the newspaper which did a story on how she was sure she had won. The outcome? She won! I'd like to see an explanation of THAT based on hypnosis or the power of positive thinking!
wws@siemens.UUCP (William W Smith) (07/25/84)
I have something that hasn't been mentioned about the fire walking. Scientific American had an article 5 or 10 years ago about fire walking. It was in the column "The Amateur Scientist." It had a discussion about the phenomena of water boiling slowly on very hot metal plates also. The author was brave enough to try it himself and gave an explanation for the phenomena. He was clutching in his arms a physics book to protect himself as he walked across the hot bed of coals. (I think it the author was Jearl Walker, the present columnist, but don't quote me on that.) To find the article, look in the index in the December issues under the heading of The Amateur Scientist. Bill Smith ihnp4!astrovax!princeton!siemens!wws