forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk (06/12/91)
I must object to the association being proposed between `wearing a tie' and `competence in technical matters'. I am currently wearing a rather nice tie from Liberty, and if you were therefore to assume that I was not really up to kernel work, you might be making a big mistake! Furthermore, `plimsolls, jeans, and T-shirt' seems just as much of a conformist convention in some cults as `suit and tie'. Some of the net articles are remarkably defensive in tone. ``No, honestly, we don't conform either: we all wear jeans & t-shirts just like you!'' Perhaps this nonsense bears little weight in any assessment of ability and originality. Let us return to technical issues and abandon sartorial sniping!
jona@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Jon Alperin) (06/13/91)
Never! I refuse to take the word of anyone (especially from IBM) on a technical matter if they are wearing a tie. I think that ties restrict the flow of blood to the brain, and therefore the answers which I am liable to get (especially from IBM) are all too often products of lightheadedness. -- Jon Alperin Bell Communications Research ---> Internet: jona@iscp.bellcore.com ---> Voicenet: (908) 699-8674 ---> UUNET: uunet!bcr!jona * All opinions and stupid questions are my own *
jcburt@ipsun.larc.nasa.gov (John Burton) (06/13/91)
In article <676737217.25035@minster.york.ac.uk> forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk writes: >I must object to the association being proposed between `wearing a tie' >and `competence in technical matters'. I am currently wearing a rather >nice tie from Liberty, and if you were therefore to assume that I was >not really up to kernel work, you might be making a big mistake! >Furthermore, `plimsolls, jeans, and T-shirt' seems just as much of a >conformist convention in some cults as `suit and tie'. >Some of the net articles are remarkably defensive in tone. >``No, honestly, we don't conform either: we all wear jeans & t-shirts just like you!'' >Perhaps this nonsense bears little weight in any assessment of ability >and originality. >Let us return to technical issues and abandon sartorial sniping! Different countries, different customs...In the states (or colonies if you will) the "coat & tie" look is typical of a *business* type person, be they salesmen, accountants, managers, etc...the casual attire (no tie!!!) is typical of a technical type, engineer, scientist, technician, etc (those who actually *do* the work...:-). In technical matters I would much rather hear from a technical type instead of a business type...when was the last time you trusted a salesman to give you a straight answer? (and when was the last time you saw a salesman NOT wear a tie???) John +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | John Burton | | G & A Technical Software | | jcburt@gatsibm.larc.nasa.gov | | jcburt@cs.wm.edu | | | | Disclaimer: Hey, what can I say...These are *my* views, not those | | of anyone else, be they employer, school, or government| +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
root@rios.au.ibm.com (The Super User) (06/19/91)
In article <1991Jun12.214318.13572@bellcore.bellcore.com> jona@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Jon Alperin) writes: >Never! I refuse to take the word of anyone (especially from IBM) on a technical >matter if they are wearing a tie. I think that ties restrict the flow of blood >to the brain, and therefore the answers which I am liable to get (especially >from IBM) are all too often products of lightheadedness. > > >-- >Jon Alperin Bleedin' Heck Jon, what about us poor blokes down here in Oz? As we have the honour (?) of sometimes having customers (real paying ones) come through our buildings, with Marketing Reps wandering around after them saying things like 'This is our support center, don't they look great?' we have to wear ties. Not only ties, but full suits as well. ( Huh, and you thought we all wore Acubra hats and drank Foster's out of hot tinnies in the middle of the Great Sandy Desert ... ) However, I have it on fairly good authority from some of our customers that we do provide a reasonable level of support. After all, they can't see if you are wearing a tie over the phone, can they? Mind you, I promise not to tie my tie so tight in the morning just to make sure I'm not missing out on any of that bloodflow :-)! Regards, Peter May, Advisory Program Service Rep, AIX Support Center, Sydney, Australia. VNET: PETERMAY at SYDVM1, INTERNET: peter@uuneon.pub.uu.oz.au /* I DO NOT SPEAK FOR IBM HERE! I DO ENOUGH OF THAT ELSEWHERE! */
rich@kunikpok.uucp (Richard Hasting) (06/20/91)
In article <1991Jun19.020007.32113@rios.au.ibm.com> au0005@ausvmq.austin.ibm.com writes: >In article <1991Jun12.214318.13572@bellcore.bellcore.com> jona@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Jon Alperin) writes: ]>>Never! I refuse to take the word of anyone (especially from IBM) on a technical ]>>matter if they are wearing a tie. I think that ties restrict the flow of blood ]>>to the brain, and therefore the answers which I am liable to get (especially ]>>from IBM) are all too often products of lightheadedness. ]>> ]>> ]>>-- ]>>Jon Alperin Watch out Jon, some of us are watching you. Next time you call in, I'll remember your name:-) Given my preference, I would be wearing shorts and a Tee, but hey ... Actually, the dumbest people I have ever met have been wearing torn blue jeans and baseball caps. Just because you might have gotten some bad technical advice from a tie wearer doesn't imply that advice from all tie wearers is as suspect. The point is, a person should be judged by there integrity, not by what they wear:-) -- Richard Hasting, Austin TX. rich@kunikpok.uucp; ... !cs.utexas.edu!icus.com!kunikpok!richkuni What organization, I own the machine. "We're on a mission from God." - Dan A. -- Richard Hasting, Austin TX. rich@kunikpok.uucp; ... !cs.utexas.edu!icus.com!kunikpok!richkuni What organization, I own the machine. "We're on a mission from God." - Dan A.
jona@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Jon Alperin) (06/20/91)
Ok...I've gotten flamed (or at least toasted) enough. I retract my "I don't trust ties" statement. But I still believe that people that prefer to wear ties over more comfortable clothes are a bit strange (and I'm not sure I trust them) :-} OK? -- Jon Alperin Bell Communications Research ---> Internet: jona@iscp.bellcore.com ---> Voicenet: (908) 699-8674 ---> UUNET: uunet!bcr!jona * All opinions and stupid questions are my own *
jeffs@soul.esd.sgi.com (Jeff Smith) (06/21/91)
I tried not to comment on this yet, but after getting a letter from my friend yesterday, I felt I had to. IBM Austin is fairly liberal for an IBM site as far as dress. I've spent about 3 months there as an IBM employee wearing a t-shirt, jeans and sneakers while working on the first release of both AIX/6000 and AIX/PS2. However the tie comments are valid for most of IBM, even for programmers. A friend of mine works at a upstate NY IBM location, as a programmer, with no customer contact. A group of people there have started dress down friday (no ties, still a button down shirt, slacks, shoes). They have been told that is is unwise, because it coul "Limit their opportunity (for advancement)". Perhaps the rest of the company will follow Austin's dress codes. jeffs@sgi.com
mike@bria.UUCP (mike.stefanik) (06/22/91)
In an article, rich@kunikpok.uucp (Richard Hasting) writes: >Actually, the dumbest people I have ever met have been wearing >torn blue jeans and baseball caps. Just because you might have gotten >some bad technical advice from a tie wearer doesn't imply that advice >from all tie wearers is as suspect. The point is, a person should be >judged by there integrity, not by what they wear:-) Methinks that it is all a matter of conformity. Are you wearing your tie and suit because you *want* to wear your tie and suit, or has it been dictated that "Thou shalt wear thy Tie and thy Suit"? Those who actually enjoy ties and suits are typically of an anal retentive nature, and not suitable for UNIX or C programming -- RPG III on the AS/400 is more their speed. Those who are forced to wear ties and suits as a result of economic oppression by their employer, well ... it depends. If they subconsciously enjoy being oppressed, then they too are anal retentive, and should persue RPG programming as noted above. If they resent wearing ties and suits, but don't want to give up the big bucks they are pulling down, then they should do us all a favor and get the hell out of the programming profession and become salesman; that's what they are now, anyhow. Lastly, if you are dirt poor and suit-bound, then you have my deepest sympathy... but think how good it will feel when you finally tell your employer where *exactly* they can insert all of that suit cloth. Remember -- real UNIX programmers have long hair, beards, and wear sandals. Cheers! And remember ... read this with a :-) in mind. Of course, if you were offended, then you are anal retentive in nature, and really should consider RPG as a career path option. -- Mike Stefanik, MGI Inc., Los Angeles -- Opinions stated are never realistic! "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards out of men." -Lincoln
shore@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Melinda Shore) (06/23/91)
In article <294@bria.UUCP> uunet!bria!mike writes: >Remember -- real UNIX programmers have long hair, beards, and wear sandals. Wrong. Sign me short-haired, beardless, and besneakered, -- Software longa, hardware brevis Melinda Shore - Cornell Information Technologies - shore@theory.tn.cornell.edu
fangchin@leland.Stanford.EDU (Chin Fang) (06/23/91)
In article <294@bria.UUCP>, mike@bria.UUCP (mike.stefanik) writes: |> |> Remember -- real UNIX programmers have long hair, beards, and wear sandals. |> In the January 1991 UnixWorld, starting from Page 45, the article "Who is the Real Dennis Ritchie?" has a very clear picture of Dr. Ritchie. Hmm... Let me check against your criteria above ... 1, "have long hair" Nope! Dr. Ritchie's hair is very trimed, more like a an Army general's... Next, 2. "beards", Yep, he does have some. Not long however, just "man's beard" 3. "wearing sandals" Grrr... this picture doesn't show his feet, can't tell. Worse, he was wearing a shirt! CONCLUSION: A Korn shell script Dantest is created... #! /bin/ksh # # the following Korn shell script attempts to determine whether Dr. Ritchie # of AT&T, the creator of the C programming language and co-creator of the # UNIX time sharing operating system is a real UNIX/C programmer or not per # Mr. Stefanik's world famous triple critria # # No copyright is claimed. Henceforth this very script is in public domain, # Have at it. # if [ -n "Dr. Ritchie does not have long hair" ]; then "Dr. Ritchie" != "real UNIX/C programmer" fi For some unknown reasons, Dantest never runs! Something must be wrong here! Any pointers? Thanks in advance for any help. Regards, Chin Fang Mechanical Engineering Department Stanford University fangchin@leland.stanford.edu
benson@odi.com (Benson I. Margulies) (06/23/91)
What we really learn from this discussion is that soi-disant "unix experts" who have nothing better to do than fill a previously fairly high signal-to-noise group with fluff are, at usual, expert at nothing except the display of their own prejudices, sexism prominently included. -- Benson I. Margulies
dls@achilleus.austin.ibm.com (David Skeen) (06/24/91)
Could we move or end this discussion? Thanks, -- Dave Skeen IBM Internal: dls@achilleus.austin.ibm.com D61/803 Zip 2603 IBM VNET: SKEEN at AUSTIN Austin, TX 78758 Internet: dls@dce.austin.ibm.com
mrl@uai.com (Mark R. Ludwig) (06/27/91)
In article <1991Jun20.140932.7398@bellcore.bellcore.com>, Jon Alperin writes: >I still believe that people that prefer to wear ties over more >comfortable clothes are a bit strange (and I'm not sure I trust them) >:-} OK? You're allowed your opinion, but I'm reminded of a saying from one of the fortune cookie programs: An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. In other words, you may think Foo, who wears a tie, is strange. It is not the tie's fault that Foo is strange, and there is no logic in claiming that anyone else who wears a tie is also strange! Then there's the classic: Don't judge a book by its cover. In fact I'm blowing smoke because the reason I wear a tie is that people *do* judge others by their clothes. It's wrong! I know plenty of people who wear a tie, but who didn't always, and as far as I can tell it has little impact on their technical ability. In some cases, they seem to have improved, but perhaps that's because they're learning as they age, and their clothing plays no part in the change.$$ -- INET: mrl@uai.com UUCP: uunet!uaisun4!mrl PSTN: +1 213 822 4422 USPS: 7740 West Manchester Boulevard, Suite 208, Playa del Rey, CA 90293 WANT: Succinct, insightful statement to occupy this space. Inquire within.
consp04@bingsuna.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu (Dan Boyd) (06/28/91)
Enough about ties already! I think one should avoid wearing a tie when servicing or unloading a high-speed line printer. -- Dan -- Daniel F. Boyd consp04@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu CONTACT ALIENS BOTH BENEVOLENT AND EVIL! DON'T STIR OR DISTURB THE RICE! 210526315789473684 Also, if you wait too long, the pumpkin comes. -- mdchaney@iubacs