chiprout@venus.misemi ( test) (10/07/89)
Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there create a news interface that is easy to use, easy to understand (with -- God forgive me -- a good help facility) and clear instructions. man rn is almost useless because you have to understand the term that are used before you read it. I am not a programmer but a frustrated user. I have better things to do with my time. This posting shouldn't even exist. Am I alone in my feelings?
halai@shiva.misemi (Shabbir Halai) (10/07/89)
In article <1083@venus.misemi> chiprout@.UUCP (Eli Chiprout - test) writes: >Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so >vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >do with my time. This posting shouldn't even exist. > >Am I alone in my feelings? Absolutely not.
fritz@unocss.UUCP (Tim Russell) (10/07/89)
chiprout@venus.misemi ( test) writes: |Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so |vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there |create a news interface that is easy to use, easy to understand (with -- |God forgive me -- a good help facility) and clear instructions. man rn is |almost useless because you have to understand the term that are used |before you read it. Have you looked at the other readers available? There are several. Until a few months ago I, along with 99% of the people on this machine, used "vn" and was very happy with it. It's easy to use and makes reading much faster than on rn, IMHO. It's not a bad reader at all. Now I use "nn". It's even faster, and has an auto-kill/auto-select file. Vn lacks both and rn lacks the auto-select feature. The people that I have shown nn to seemed to find it easy enough, but it's incredibly powerful and full-featured if one takes the time to read the man page, which I think is pretty well-written. If you run Gnu Emacs, there are several readers available for it too. |Am I alone in my feelings? Definitely not! I think rn stinks too! So look around! There are better alternatives. -- Tim Russell Univ. Of Nebr. at Omaha russell@{zeus.unl.edu | unoma1.bitnet} "I'm against any law that I wouldn't break if I could get away with it." -- A. Whitney Brown, SNL
pkatz@zaphod.axion.bt.co.uk (Philip Katz) (10/08/89)
From article <1085@shiva.misemi>, by halai@shiva.misemi (Shabbir Halai): > In article <1083@venus.misemi> chiprout@.UUCP (Eli Chiprout - test) writes: >>Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so >>vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >>do with my time. This posting shouldn't even exist. >> >>Am I alone in my feelings? > > Absolutely not. On this site we all use `vn', which the news gurus assure me is infinetly superior to `rn'. The source may well be available by e-mail to `postmaster@axion.bt.co.uk', though it's 1:30 a.m. so I can't check !!! There is also an X-windows version called `xrn' which I haven't had a chance to try yet. Philip Katz, :|: PKatz@axion.bt.co.uk British Telecom Research Laboratories, :|: + 44 473 642682 RT3141, SSTF 310, Martlesham Heath, :|: "Won't somebody teach me Ipswich, Suffolk, England IP5 7RE :|: ... how to pick my nose?"
epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) (10/09/89)
In article <1083@venus.misemi> chiprout@.UUCP (Eli Chiprout - test) writes: >Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so >vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >create a news interface that is easy to use, easy to understand (with -- >God forgive me -- a good help facility) and clear instructions. man rn is >almost useless because you have to understand the term that are used >before you read it. There are a *lot* of newsreaders out there. At InterOp Apple was showing one running under HyperCard. Most of the rn complaints seem to be about the documentation rather than the program itself. A lot of people just don't WANT to read the manual page. Here's a project for someone: an online "rn tutorial/demo." -=EPS=-
briang@bari.Sun.COM (Brian Gordon) (10/09/89)
In article <1083@venus.misemi> chiprout@.UUCP (Eli Chiprout - test) writes: >Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so >vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >create a news interface that is easy to use, easy to understand (with -- >God forgive me -- a good help facility) and clear instructions. man rn is >almost useless because you have to understand the term that are used >before you read it. > >I am not a programmer but a frustrated user. I have better things to >do with my time. This posting shouldn't even exist. > >Am I alone in my feelings? You mean are there other people who want something for nothing? No, there are lots of them. The creation of 'rn' involved LOTS of time from one individual, with no compensation. Larry Wall created a news reader that was -- and still is, IMHO -- much better than the others available at the time. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you want something "perfect", by your definition, send me your definition and I'll bid it -- my guess is that it shouldn't run over $25,000 (unless you want source, too -- that's negotiable). Perhaps you can find someone to do it cheaper. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Brian G. Gordon briang@Corp.Sun.COM (if you trust exotic mailers) | | ...!sun!bari!briang (if you route it yourself) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
cmp7130@sys.uea.ac.uk (R.M. O'Neill) (10/09/89)
In article <1083@venus.misemi> chiprout@.UUCP (Eli Chiprout - test) writes: >Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so >vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >do with my time. This posting shouldn't even exist. > >Am I alone in my feelings There is a newsreader 'nn' which is a vast improvement over 'rn'. It is faster and allows you to SELECT which articles you want to read (rather than just presenting you with all of them and making you skip the trash, after half reading it).l It also orders articles by subject and posting date (not arrival date). The source for 'nn' should be available from your nearest archive site for the comp.sources.unix newsgroup (and other places too). [I have a list somewhere but I ain't gonna dig it out just now!] -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | #include <picture.h> | UUCP: ..|ukc|uea-sys|cmp7130 | | Richard O'Neill, UEA, Norwich, UK | Janet: cmp7130@uk.ac.uea.sys | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
storkus@arrakis.nevada.edu (Mike Storke N7MSD) (10/10/89)
Well, if those news readers (Vn, nn) are so superior to rn, then why is it
that more administrators don't get them as a replacement? We're using rn
here. Do I go to the administrators, and talk to them, or what do I do?
73's (best wishes) all,
*****************************************************************************
Mike P. Storke, N7MSD @ University Nevada/Las Vegas-only a student, sorry :-)
Email: storkus@arrakis.nevada.edu Packet: None (yet!) My opinions are mine
and mine alone, so PLEASE only complain to ME and spare my relatives, the
world, etc. :-) "Big Brother has ALWAYS secretly watched you!!" - ME!! :-{karen@everexn.uucp (Karen Valentino) (10/10/89)
chiprout@venus.misemi ( test) writes: >Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so >vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >create a news interface that is easy to use, easy to understand (with -- >God forgive me -- a good help facility) and clear instructions. man rn is >almost useless because you have to understand the term that are used >before you read it. >I am not a programmer but a frustrated user. I have better things to >do with my time. This posting shouldn't even exist. >Am I alone in my feelings? I understand your complaint. It takes a while to become conversant using any newsreader, though. Several of the people here where I work (I among them) have switched to using nn ("no news" is good news). I find that it is much easier to deal with; the material presents itself in a more screen-oriented format, with subject headers grouped together in alphabetical order. I find that I also have more control with nn; I can change the way that the subject lines present themselves (sorted by order of arrival instead of alphabetically, for instance), and there are many options that can be used when entering nn. I, like you, am not a programmer, but I've learned enough during the past few months that I've been logging on that I'm not sure whether you would consider the written documentation to be "user friendly" or not! I know enough of the syntax to construct commands and get around. I think the docs for nn are pretty good, but I may have lost my neophyte perspective. *But* I must agree that no matter what reader you use, if you're not a programmer, and I think especially if you're not familiar with Unix, you have some work to do in order to become conversant. It's not impossible, though, and I've found that all the wrestling I've done has made me appreciate the power of the computer all the more. And I'm actually threatening to become a Unix fan! (And this is from the person who, logged on to Unix for the first time, tried to take a directory by typing "dir"--when it came back at me with "command not found" I *knew* this wasn't Kansas anymore!) Anyway, rather than just commiserate with you, I'm going to make some suggestions based on my limited experience. These may or may not work for you. You may not be able to make the time to follow them, you may not secretly love to wrestle like I do, and you may not have some of the resources available that I did. 1) Find the documentation for your operating system, and start reading. I was totally intimidated when I first saw the row of binders that consists of the documentation that we use (Everex version of Unix)-- five fat binders all lined up in a row! It turns out that I only use two of them, the User's Guide and the User's Reference. I may be the only person in the universe whose ability to get around on the net has been enhanced in a big way by making friends with my os, but I seriously doubt it. 2) I get the impression that you have *found* your FM; you just don't understand what it has to say! (I wish every person on the net who has written a RTFM article would read yours!--what good does it do to read TFM when it might as well be written in Esperanto?) If you haven't located your FM, find out where it is. I had no idea that there was a manual for rn (my late, unlamented news reader) when I first got started. Anyway, read your manual as best as you can. As you go along, getting more experience on the net, you can refer back to the manual and all the gobbledeegook will make more and more sense to you. Part of the problem is, of course, that most programmers don't write documentation for users. (From what I understand, trying to get them to write documentation for each other can be a pretty trying endeavor, too!) We users are at a giant disadvantage--we don't speak the language! (It gives me an idea of how immigrants must feel when they first get here and are met by people whom they don't understand!--people who, when the immigrants are so bold as to try to get some information so that they can function in the culture, are told to RTFM!) 3) ...and this is the biggie--find mentors. I work with programmers. I have found the ones who know about Unix and Usenet. I ask lots of questions. Our system administrator has been very helpful to me. But I am careful to try to figure out stuff by myself if I'm able to. If I can't find it in the FM (which is usually the Unix docs these days for me), then I ask *where* to find it, and look it up myself. I still need to ask questions, regularly. There are wonderful people in my office who have really helped. I am a person who likes understanding the big picture, above and beyond being able to make my computer do A or B or C. People who have experience are wonderful for helping me to expand my horizons. 4) Lastly--read news. All learning is somewhat cyclical--you kind of take in as much infomation as you can until you go into system overload, and then you sort of process what you've managed to take in and synthesize it with what you already know. When that's done, you have some more room to take in more stuff and continue the process. Reading news on the net, you'll find that you understand more and more. Someone will write something really useful and you'll have one of those great Aha! experiences where something clicks, and you'll be that much farther along in the game. I hope that this is useful. If you are interested in nn, I know that we got the sources off of the net. There are probably others out there who are nn afficionados. If you want to, you can email me and I'll try to find out more information about how we got nn up and running. If I remember right, nn is a "work in progress" and it may be that there will be a new release coming up. I don't know the name of the fellow who is designing it, but wish I did; he certainly deserves credit. Anybody out there who can supply his name/location? Best of luck to you! Cheers--Karen -- Karen Valentino <> Everex North (Everex Systems) <> Sebastopol, CA
eacj@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Julian Vrieslander) (10/10/89)
In article <648@wet.UUCP> epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) writes: >In article <1083@venus.misemi> chiprout@.UUCP (Eli Chiprout - test) writes: >>Is there no better alternative to rn? Seeing that network news is so >>vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >>create a news interface that is easy to use, easy to understand (with -- >>God forgive me -- a good help facility) and clear instructions. man rn is > >There are a *lot* of newsreaders out there. At InterOp Apple was >showing one running under HyperCard. Most of the rn complaints Does anyone know about availability for the Hypercard newsreader? Sounds like a great idea. [This space left intentionally blank, fodder for the mailer] -- Julian Vrieslander Neurobiology & Behavior, W250 Mudd Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca NY 14853 UUCP: {cmcl2,decvax,rochester,uw-beaver}!cornell!batcomputer!eacj INTERNET: eacj@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu BITNET: eacj@CRNLTHRY
epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) (10/11/89)
In article <885@unsvax.NEVADA.EDU> storkus@arrakis.nevada.edu.uucp (Mike Storke N7MSD) writes: > Well, if those news readers (Vn, nn) are so superior to rn, then why is it >that more administrators don't get them as a replacement? Does it reorder .newsrc the way it wants, rather than the way I want? Does it support KILL files? Will it run with the customary netnews data files, or does it need its own proprietary database and a daemon to maintain them? Will it work with only NNTP to read news? (There are machines without NFS!) I'm still waiting for something "superior" to rn. -=EPS=-
tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (10/11/89)
In <885@unsvax.NEVADA.EDU> storkus@arrakis.nevada.edu (Mike Storke N7MSD):
Mike> Well, if those news readers (Vn, nn) are so superior to rn,
Mike> then why is it that more administrators don't get them as a
Mike> replacement? We're using rn here. Do I go to the
Mike> administrators, and talk to them, or what do I do?
Sure, talk to them. See what they have to say. It might even help a
little in some cases if you got the package first and could address
what is gained by installing it.
Why don't more administrators get them? Various reasons. For one,
there is nothing really that is "so superior" about them; often times
the claim of such superiority is more subjective than objective.
Another reason could be that many news adminstrators don't pay much
attention to news. They'll look at it if it is broken, but in general
they just leave it be. The software they run falls behind in
patchlevels and new software isn't tried. Sometimes it is a matter of
available diskspace, or just convenience.
As an example, I directly support three readers here -- rn, nn and
GNUS. I'm quite inclined to simply toss nn because I don't personally
like it, but I know there are other readers who do like it, so it
stays. If I have a little free time (HAH!) maybe I'll get something
else. More likely, if someone comes to me and says, "Hey, I like
<reader>, would you please install it?" I probably will. That is
indeed the case with readnews, which someone has told me he uses for
non-interactive processing. I just haven't gotten around to messing
with the readnews provided for C News, whose building is not
well-coordinated with the rest of the C News configuration.
Oh, one more thing. Many sites don't even _have_ a news admin. The
person who installed it doesn't work there anymore, for example, and
the system just sort of runs itself. Mail to news or usenet@that.site
goes unanswered and administrative details like adding and removing
groups aren't addressed. That sort of site is very likely to be
behind the times for news software, too.
Dave
--
(setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@itsgw.rpi.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))jack@csccat.UUCP (Jack Hudler) (10/12/89)
In article <654@wet.UUCP> epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) writes: > >I'm still waiting for something "superior" to rn. > > -=EPS=- DITTO!!!!! -- Jack Computer Support Corportion Dallas,Texas Hudler UUCP: {texsun,texbell,attctc}!csccat!jack
curt@dtix.dt.navy.mil (Welch) (10/13/89)
In article <1083@venus.misemi>, chiprout@venus.misemi writes: >Is there no better alternative to rn? From all the postings, you see that there are many alternatives to rn. You must understand that for a "typical" Unix user (a programmer), rn is a great program, is easy to use, and has lots of great features. Just because rn doesn't fit your needs doesn't mean that it isn't the "best" program around. >Seeing that network news is so >vital to communication, why doesn't some good programmer out there >create a news interface that is easy to use, easy to understand (with -- >God forgive me -- a good help facility) and clear instructions. man rn is >almost useless because you have to understand the term that are used >before you read it. I have been working on a news reader called tnews for the past 6 months to address some of these problems for our users. The office I work in supports 7 Unix systems that are used for "office automation". Most of our 1000 users don't even know what Unix is, let alone understand concepts like "standard input", "processes", and "pipes". Tnews is designed to be "better" than rn for our users (and our support staff) but certainly not for all users. It is designed to be simple to use and easy to learn. rn is a very nice program for people that are used to dealing with Unix but you do have to spend some time reading the manual to learn to control it. tnews is designed to be as simple and harmless as possible for the naive user, but yet be powerful enough that you won't have to switch to rn once you learn what news is all about. Tnews is a screen oriented program. The first screen you see is a list of newsgroups (and their descriptions) that you are subscribed to. When you chose a news group to read, you are shown a list of articles in that group. You can then select and read articles. Tnews makes it very obvious to the user "where" he is, and makes it very easy to re-read articles. There is a menu of commands at the bottom of each screen, but only the basic commands are listed there. You can do all the basic functions of reading, posting, and replying using only the few basic commands listed in the menus, but, like rn, there are many other commands for doing the more advanced functions (which are listed in the help screens). Tnews is completely compatible with rn and the rest of news. It uses the .newsrc file, and can read news locally or through NNTP (with the same program). Tnews is still under development, but is about to be released to our users. So far, it seems to be meeting its design goals. New users that are shown both tnews and rn prefer tnews. Of the users that have already learned to use rn, about 25% switch to tnews. It might be possible to release tnews to the public. If you have any interest in it, let me know. It is currently running under ULTRIX 2.2, on VAX systems and under BSD 4.3 on ISI (68020) systems. >I am not a programmer but a frustrated user. I have better things to >do with my time. This posting shouldn't even exist. Programmers have better things to do with their time than to write free software for you. You should consider yourself lucky to have USENET at all. To commercially develop a news reader that is "better" than rn will cost around $100,000. If you have that type of money to spend, drop me a line. Curt Welch curt@dtix.dt.navy.mil
doug@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Douglas W O'neal) (10/13/89)
In article <183@nems.dt.navy.mil> curt@dtix.dt.navy.mil (Curt Welch) writes:
*From all the postings, you see that there are many alternatives
*to rn. You must understand that for a "typical" Unix user (a
*programmer), ...
^^^^^^^^^^
[ . . . . .]
*The office I work in supports 7 Unix systems that are used for "office
*automation". Most of our 1000 users don't even know what Unix is, let
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*alone understand concepts like "standard input", "processes", and
*"pipes".
[ . . . . .]
*Curt Welch
*curt@dtix.dt.navy.mil
Does it seem a little strange to you that a typical (i.e, one of the majority)
UNIX user is a programmer who does not know what his/her operating system is?
--
Doug O'Neal Distributed Systems Programmer
Homewood Academic Computing doug@jhuvms.bitnet
Johns Hopkins University mimsy!aplcen!jhunix!doug curt@dtix.dt.navy.mil (Welch) (10/13/89)
>>In article <183@nems.dt.navy.mil> I wrote: >>You must understand that for a "typical" Unix user (a programmer), ... >>Most of our 1000 users don't even know what Unix is, ... doug@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Douglas W O'neal) writes: >Does it seem a little strange to you that a typical (i.e, one of the majority) >UNIX user is a programmer who does not know what his/her operating system is? Interesting. I said that because I don't think our users are "typical" UNIX users. That's why we decided to write tnews. Perhaps they are more typical than I realize. >Doug O'Neal Distributed Systems Programmer Curt Welch curt@dtix.dt.navy.mil
gsh7w@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg S. Hennessy) (10/13/89)
In article <2914@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU> doug@jhunix.UUCP (Douglas W O'neal) writes:
#Does it seem a little strange to you that a typical (i.e, one of the majority)
#UNIX user is a programmer who does not know what his/her operating system is?
No, it seems to me that that is our goal. I *SHOULD* be able to run
1-2-3 or lotus without knowing or perhaps caring what the underlying
OS is. However, it should be available for those who DO care what the
OS is.
-Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia
USPS Mail: Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA
Internet: gsh7w@virginia.edu
UUCP: ...!uunet!virginia!gsh7wbagchi@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Ranjan Bagchi) (10/14/89)
In article <2111@hudson.acc.virginia.edu> gsh7w@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg S. Hennessy) writes: >No, it seems to me that that is our goal. I *SHOULD* be able to run >1-2-3 or lotus without knowing or perhaps caring what the underlying ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Umm...aren't these one in the same? nit-picking...rj bagchi@sparky.eecs.umich.edu
epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) (10/15/89)
I received mail from someone suggesting that I look at GNUS. I grabbed the sources from tut.cis.ohio-state.edu and dropped them onto a NeXT running the 1.0 release (which, interestingly enough, comes with the gnus documentation (which wasn't in 0.9), but not gnus itself). It was relatively painless to install (wow!) and worked well, if a bit slowly. I wasn't too impressed with the built-in help, but the "real" documentation is quite good. Hint: use the newsetup(1) script from rn to set up an initial .newsrc; gnus doesn't do as good a job, and takes a long time. While I personally prefer rn, there are considerable benefits to running in the GNU emacs environment, so I intend to support it. (For someone who knows: how's weemba's Gnews?) -=EPS=-
rodney@taac.ipl.rpi.edu (Rodney Peck II) (10/16/89)
>>>>> On 15 Oct 89 01:19:37 GMT, epsilon@wet.UUCP (Eric P. Scott) said:
Eric> I received mail from someone suggesting that I look at GNUS.
Eric> I grabbed the sources from tut.cis.ohio-state.edu and dropped
Eric> them onto a NeXT running the 1.0 release (which, interestingly
Eric> enough, comes with the gnus documentation (which wasn't in 0.9),
Eric> but not gnus itself). It was relatively painless to install
Eric> (wow!) and worked well, if a bit slowly. I wasn't too impressed
Eric> with the built-in help, but the "real" documentation is quite
Eric> good. Hint: use the newsetup(1) script from rn to set up an
Eric> initial .newsrc; gnus doesn't do as good a job, and takes a long
Eric> time.
Eric> While I personally prefer rn, there are considerable benefits to
Eric> running in the GNU emacs environment, so I intend to support it.
Gnus is actually much faster than rn when you use NNTP to just get
headers. It really flies.
What would be nicer is if it would take the time while you are reading
an article to get the NEXT article. Then, response time would be
seem to be practically immediate.
Gnus is nice and it's extendable.
--
Rodneyafoiani@nmsu.EDU (Anthony Foiani) (10/16/89)
Just a personal preference, but if any of the people out there complaining about rn and rn' have access to gemacs, I would not hesitate to recommend gnus. It has an extremely stable interface, fairly mnemonic keys [altho I have yet to figure out how to get 'a' from "post"]. And best of all [for all you editor affectionados(sp?) out there], everything is treated as a buffer in gemacs... i.e. edit to your heart's content. it is available from xanth.cis.odu.edu [anon ftp], but fair warning: it take something like a meg of free memory to get it running [altho it goes down to about .5M when byte-compiled]. Setup is not for the faint-of-heart [or low-of-disk-quota], but anybody fairly conversant with UNIX and gemacs has a fair chance. The package includes a tcp.c program that [if i remember correctly] allows use of NNTP w/o needing NFS. (I'm not sure on this point, but it sounds good.) In closing, gemacs + gnus is far superior to rn, and probably to nn [altho i have had no experience with this reader]. It gives the user much more powerful article selection features, as well as supporting all our old friends [kill files, etc.] laters... -- tony foiani (afoiani@nmsu.edu) "And remember...don't lose your a.k.a. Tkil (mcsajf@nmsuvm1.bitnet) head..." -Ramirez, HIGHLANDER