landon@Apple.COM (Landon Dyer) (07/26/89)
If you wanted to hoard (horrors!) your massive changes to the GNU stuff,
would the following work?
The GNU license doesn't appear to require that you distribute source code on
media that's economically reasonable. Yet you can charge for media. The
point behind all of the following schemes is to require the customer to pay,
UP FRONT, an absolutely unbeleivable machine-readable media cost. If no one
can afford the media, you're home free and your source is safe as houses.
For instance, you could insist on media that's...
o Completely silly. "Sure, we'll give you a copy! We'll start melting
the wax for the tablets as soon as your check clears. We'll even sell
you a wax-tablet reader if you don't have one -- they're the wave of
the future!"
o Proprietary. "Sure, we'll send it to you on our patented counter-clock-
wise spinning 10,000 RPM CD-ROM, as soon as your check clears."
o Marginally useless. "By using a 1-point font, we can squeeze it all
onto just a few sheets of newsprint. Of course, you have to hold it
over a light-bulb in order to develop the lemon juice." [Newsprint is
arguably machine readable, if you have a REALLY good scanner. And
who said anything about introducing errors?]
o Just plain expensive. At first glance, "machine readable" seems to
preclude reading it over the phone ("One, zero, one...") -- but I
think you could insist, since voice recognition of "one" and "zero"
is pretty well solved. The guy rolling off the binary simply does so,
collect, from Zimbabwe.
Even if the GNU license mandated "magnetic tape, floppy disk or hard disk,"
I'll bet you could STILL do something about it.
Now, I'd never do this myself, or encourage anyone else to. I'm NOT a
lawyer, so I don't know if it would work. Besides, I rather like the GNU
stuff -- I simply don't like the bloody politics.
I duck and cover. I await hate-mail.... :-)
-----------------------------------------
Landon Dyer, Apple Computer, Inc. "Abstraction of Steel,
Development Systems Group (MPW) Run-Time of Kleenex."
Everything I said here is utter nonsense.mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) (07/26/89)
In article <33473@apple.Apple.COM> landon@Apple.COM (Landon Dyer) writes: >I duck and cover. I await hate-mail.... :-) >----------------------------------------- >Landon Dyer, Apple Computer, Inc. "Abstraction of Steel, >Development Systems Group (MPW) Run-Time of Kleenex." >Everything I said here is utter nonsense. Oh Jesus, now we've got Apple developers trying to sound out the GNU license to see how much they can get away with. This is unbelievable. Landon tells us that he "likes the GNU stuff, just not the politics". Hmmm...not surprising. Gee, what about when GNU clones the MAC interface (as if someone actually wants to DO such a thing!)? Will he STILL "like the GNU stuff"? Or will he suddenly take a liking to politics and sue GNU just like they're suing Microsoft. Alas. Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day, mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man. Telephone: +1 505 292 0001 / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!
macgyver@banana.cis.ohio-state.edu (wilson m liaw) (07/26/89)
In article <247@unmvax.unm.edu> mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) writes: >Oh Jesus, now we've got Apple developers trying to sound out the GNU >license to see how much they can get away with. This is unbelievable. >Landon tells us that he "likes the GNU stuff, just not the politics". >Hmmm...not surprising. Gee, what about when GNU clones the MAC >interface (as if someone actually wants to DO such a thing!)? Will he >STILL "like the GNU stuff"? Or will he suddenly take a liking to >politics and sue GNU just like they're suing Microsoft. Alas. Come on, Landon did state that he would never do such thing nor would he encourage anyone doing so. He is just bringing up a point. But I do agree with you, if GNU clones Mac Interface, I have no doubt Apple would sue like crazy. -=- Wilson Mac Liaw $ Two sure ways to tell a sexy male; Internet : macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu $ the first is, he has a bad memory. CompuServe : 71310,1653 $ I forget the second :) GEnie : W.Liaw $
sps@mcnc.org (Stephen P. Schaefer) (07/26/89)
This fellow may have already had practice: I recall when the only media on which A/UX was available was a hard drive :-) -- Stephen P. Schaefer, Postmaster MCNC sps@mcnc.org P.O. Box 12889 ...!mcnc!sps RTP, NC 27709
paul@morganucodon.cis.ohio-state.edu (Paul Placeway) (07/27/89)
Erf. Flames; just what we need :-(. I suspect that what Landon may have been trying to point out was the sale of FSF software on CD-ROM form for $500 (I am told) at the past USENIX. (with something like 1/3 profits going to FSF.) Discovery systems, Columbus OH, will be happy to press you 1000 disks for between $2000 and $4000; you just have to supply the data. (Yes, if you are counting, CDs with music on them are cheaper to produce and ship than vinal records are; that's why the record stores charge twice as much for them :-) ). At this rate, one would need to sell about 10 disks to recover pressing costs (for 1000 disks). From then on it's all profit. I though the idea was _Free_ software. I could understand $50--$100 in media cost for disks; $500 is a bit steep. -- Paul Placeway
mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) (07/27/89)
In article <PAUL.89Jul26160204@morganucodon.cis.ohio-state.edu> paul@cis.ohio-state.edu writes: >I though the idea was _Free_ software. I could understand $50--$100 >in media cost for disks; $500 is a bit steep. "Free" as in "you are free to do with this program as you please" not as in "you get this program for no money." Of course, the first tends to mean that lots of nice people will give it to you for their cost, which is often nil (like anonymous FTP sites that need to have it around anyway). But lots of other people (like the Austin Code Works) will try to get money out of you. But, the meaning of "free" is that however you get it, you are free to do with it as you please. Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day, mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man. Telephone: +1 505 292 0001 / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!
jeffrey@algor2.uu.net (Jeffrey Kegler) (07/27/89)
In article <PAUL.89Jul26160204@morganucodon.cis.ohio-state.edu> paul@cis.ohio-state.edu writes: => I suspect that what Landon may have been trying to point out was the => sale of FSF software on CD-ROM form for $500 ... => $500 is a bit steep. FSF really cannot be criticized on this point, whether they were charging $50 or $5000. You and ten others could buy the CD. You could copy the software from the net, or someone who had copied it from the net, and put it on CD yourself--and sell the CD's! Any distribution FSF does is, beyond sending out the first few copies to highly accessible loci, above and beyond the call of duty. Actually, I would like the FSF stuff on CD, and no, I would not pay $500 for it. $50 seems a lot more like it. But if I want it on CD bad enough, nothing prevents me from going out, doing it myself, and recouping my costs by selling the CDs. I have no right to complain to FSF. According to the copyleft, in fact, I could write a nifty shell script that deletes files with special characters in their names. Since this is such a major innovation in UNIX programming :-) I can add it to the CD raising the price to $5,000, $50 for the GNU Emacs, GCC, etc. and $4,950 for J. Kegler's new cosmic enhancement to UNIX. Nice, no, legal and within the copyleft, yes. Of course, any buyer of my CD could copy the GNU stuff, omit my new utility and copy the remaining fragment to CD, cutting the price in the process. -- Jeffrey Kegler, Independent UNIX Consultant, Algorists, Inc. jeffrey@algor2.UU.NET or uunet!algor2!jeffrey 1762 Wainwright DR, Reston VA 22090
nagle@well.UUCP (John Nagle) (07/28/89)
Would providing source on microfiche satisfy the contractual requirements of the copyleft? John Nagle
ckd@bucsb.UUCP (Christopher Davis) (07/28/89)
In article <247@unmvax.unm.edu> mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) writes: -In article <33473@apple.Apple.COM> landon@Apple.COM (Landon Dyer) writes: - ->I duck and cover. I await hate-mail.... :-) - ->----------------------------------------- ->Landon Dyer, Apple Computer, Inc. "Abstraction of Steel, ->Development Systems Group (MPW) Run-Time of Kleenex." ->Everything I said here is utter nonsense. - -Oh Jesus, now we've got Apple developers trying to sound out the GNU -license to see how much they can get away with. This is unbelievable. -Landon tells us that he "likes the GNU stuff, just not the politics". -Hmmm...not surprising. Gee, what about when GNU clones the MAC -interface (as if someone actually wants to DO such a thing!)? Will he -STILL "like the GNU stuff"? Or will he suddenly take a liking to -politics and sue GNU just like they're suing Microsoft. Alas. First, he wasn't trying to "see how much he could get away with," unless he intends to distribute GNU Emacs on punchcards. He was pointing out possible weaknesses in the GPL, much the same way as earlier posters pointed out the "link it yourself" gap. Debugging, in other words. Second, he is *NOT* Apple. There are Apple employees, probably many of them, that disagree with the lawsuit. I work for Boston University and often disagree with their actions and policies--give Apple employees that right as well. - Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true -LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day, - mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man. - Telephone: +1 505 292 0001 / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee! -- /\ | / |\ @bu-pub.bu.edu <preferred> | Christopher K. Davis, BU SMG '90 / |/ | \ %bu-pub.bu.edu@bu-it.bu.edu | uses standardDisclaimer; \ |\ | / <for stupid sendmails> | BITNET: smghy6c@buacca \/ | \ |/ @bucsb.UUCP <last resort> or ...!bu-cs!bucsb!ckd if you gotta. --"Ignore the man behind the curtain and the address in the header." --ckd--
john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) (07/28/89)
In article <248@unmvax.unm.edu> mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) writes: >In article <PAUL.89Jul26160204@morganucodon.cis.ohio-state.edu> paul@cis.ohio-state.edu writes: > >>I though the idea was _Free_ software. I could understand $50--$100 >>in media cost for disks; $500 is a bit steep. > >"Free" as in "you are free to do with this program as you please" not as >in "you get this program for no money." Actually, it mean both in most cases. When I release public domain or not-for-sale software to the public, I am making it available for any use whatsoever (by legal definition of public domain) and available at no cost (for not-for-sale software). There should not, however, EVER be any expectation that those who collect and organize the code, write documentation, put it on media and ship it to you should work for free. Media and preparation charges are perfectly legitimate and fit in the spirit of public domain. Of course, if someone wants to do this for free, he can. He simply is not obligated to. John -- John De Armond, WD4OQC | Manual? ... What manual ?!? Sales Technologies, Inc. Atlanta, GA | This is Unix, My son, You ...!gatech!stiatl!john **I am the NRA** | just GOTTA Know!!!
jeff@aiai.uucp (Jeff Dalton) (07/29/89)
In article <248@unmvax.unm.edu> mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) writes: >In article <PAUL.89Jul26160204@morganucodon.cis.ohio-state.edu> paul@cis.ohio-state.edu writes: > >>I though the idea was _Free_ software. I could understand $50--$100 >>in media cost for disks; $500 is a bit steep. > >"Free" as in "you are free to do with this program as you please" not as >in "you get this program for no money." The "free" is "Free Software Foundation" can't mean "you can do what you want" becuase the General Public License puts restrictions on what you can do. Instead, it *does* mean "no money". That is, you don't have to pay *for the software*, just for the distribution (ie, the tape, or whatever, plus some admin costs). And, indeed, it is often possible to get the whole thing for zero money, because the distribution cost is zero. Now, it might be argued that there are always hidden costs, or something like that. I don't want to argue about that. And in many cases it doesn't matter. It's enough, as far as I'm concerned, that you can look at what you've paid out and not find anything for FSF software.
rex@otto.lvsun.com (Rex Jolliff) (08/14/89)
in an earlier article, Landon Dyer writes some entertaining stuff about
how to get around the GPL, which, because of the smileys, should have
been taken tounge in cheek.
In a reply to this article Michael I. Bushnell writes:
Oh Jesus, now we've got Apple developers trying to sound out the GNU
license to see how much they can get away with. This is unbelievable.
Landon tells us that he "likes the GNU stuff, just not the politics".
Hmmm...not surprising. Gee, what about when GNU clones the MAC
interface (as if someone actually wants to DO such a thing!)? Will he
STILL "like the GNU stuff"? Or will he suddenly take a liking to
politics and sue GNU just like they're suing Microsoft. Alas.
I say:
I found Landon's article entertaining. I'm sure he was not at all
serious and since he put smileys on his article, anyone should have
been able to tell that he was just having some fun. I don't see any
smileys on your article, and I don't find it particularly funny
either. Lighten up dude. 'He' is not Apple and I'm sure he doesn't
follow the exact same philosophy that apple does. You equate him to
Apple which isn't correct.
Rex.
--
Rex Jolliff (rex@otto.lvsun.com, {convex, texsun, mirror}!otto!rex)
The Sun Newspaper - |Disclaimer: The opinions and comments in
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