[alt.religion.computers] lawsuit flame

gumby@Cygnus.COM (David Vinayak Wallace) (12/10/90)

It's a good thing I put flame in the subject; people who don't care
can skip this.  I tried to use a euphemism to avoid hurting Mr.
Henderson's feelings but he went off the deep end.  On the other hand
it did have one positive benefit.  In words of few syllables:

o - If you think that Ashton Tate's lawsuits are reasonable, that's
    your business.  I disagree with you, but so what -- reasonable
    people may disagree.
o - If you worry that Ashton Tate's lawsuits set a dangerous
    precedent, then we agree.
o - But if you claim to oppose them and then tacitly go along with
    them then I think you are at best a hypocrite.  

If L&F lawsuits are ultimately upheld then our ability as programmers
to change jobs at will (continuing to work in the same area) will be
restricted.  Again, if you think this is reasonable, that's your
business.  But it's hard to claim that you are against it while you
help sustain the company.  Remember the pitiful poem:
 When they came for the Jews I said nothing because I was not a Jew.
 When they came for the Catholics I said nothing because I was not a
      Catholic.
 When they came for me nobody said anything, for there was nobody left
      to stop them.

I am not willing to stand by and let these companies restrict my
freedom to work on what I want -- either as a consumer or producer of
software.  If you think it's reasonable, we may respectfully disagree.
But I am offended by someone's trying to duck responsibility by saying
"yes I think it's terrible but it's not my responsibility" (the exact
words, in <356@atncpc.UUCP>, were "The F*$%&ing lawsuits of Ashton
Tate embarass and annoy the hell out of me, too.")  Take a real stand,
Mr Henderson, since you brought it up!


Oh, the positive benefit was due to my message provoking a much
harsher reponse from Mr. Henderson in personal mail rather than on the
net.  I don't understand what, if any, relationship it has to my
missive, but at least it propounds a more firm position on SOME issue
(punctuation and spelling intact):

   Date: Sun, 2 Dec 90 14:30:48 PST
   From: labrea!atncpc!jupiter!bruce@apple.com (Bruce Henderson)
   To: gumby@cygnus.com (David Vinayak Wallace)
   Subject: lawsuit flame (Was: NeXTStep 2.0 Completed)

   David,

	   Look

   Are you some sort of racist bastard?

   Do you hate Jews as well?

   Your kind of cross burning , Jew killing, job descriminating attitude is exactly what makes 

   me want to really go out and do some damage.  You can flame me and Ashton Tate all  
   you want, but your racist comments are not welcome

I feel that by supporting Ashton Tate you are already doing some
damage, but it is unclear to me from any of your statements whether
you feel the same.  What sort of damage have you in mind?

Curious as to whither this may lead,
--d

mcgrant@elaine3.stanford.edu (Michael Grant) (12/11/90)

> When they came for the Jews I said nothing because I was not a Jew.
> When they came for the Catholics I said nothing because I was not a
>      Catholic.
> When they came for me nobody said anything, for there was nobody left
>      to stop them.

When will you get it through your thick skull that most people aren't
flaming you for your opinion, but for these offensive comparisons to 
Nazism!  I happen to agree with what you say (not completely, but somewhat),
but I feel that you need to be a lot more careful in your choice of 
comparisons.
The bottom line is how DARE you compare that guy who is working for
Ashton-Tate despite his disagreements with their practies to the passive
supporting citizens of Nazi Germany.  That is quite offensive and 
insensitive--particularly in this hypersensitive time, when we have to bite
our lip when we are tempted to say 'black' instead of 'african-american',
'gay' instead of 'homosexual', and so on.

What you are trying to say, of course, is that people tend not to act
on their beliefs until it directly affects them. But keep in mind that
things are not black and white.  The gentleman who works for Ashton-Tate
might disagree with his management very strongly.  BUT, it may not be
strongly enough to quit his job.  You might suggest that it is just as
easy for him to find another job--PERHAPS, perhaps not, but it surely is
just as easy to find a replacement for him.  In his opinion, this issue
is important enough only to draft a formal memo to his management, voice
his concerns, and let it stand at that.  If that is his reasonable
judgement of the situation, then so be it.

Michael C. Grant
.
 

dlw@Atherton.COM (David Williams) (12/12/90)

Perhaps Mr. Wallace...

Some might find it offensive and demeaning that you trivialize the experience
that 6 million jews suffered at the hands of Nazi's during WW II by saying
that Ashton-Tate's lawsuit is equivalent in scope [one can only assume this
from your "good german" quote]. The metaphors of LPF & GNU supporters on
"Look and Feel" lawsuits and boycotts towards the holocaust and the experiences
of Blacks in South Africa, lead one to wonder just what sort of sheltered life
they lead. Six million people were butchered in the holocaust. Blacks in 
South Africa suffer under a repressive police state, with a below poverty 
standard of living. Can either of these experiences be compared to the *IDEAL*
or struggle you engage in for "free" software? I think not.

Some might find it offensive if they happen to be of German ancestry that
you use the term "good german" which equates to a Nazi your example.

Some might find it offensive if they happen to be of Jewish ancestry and you
use the term "good german" and apply it to them.

Some might wonder why all who rabidly attack those who do not agree with
the beliefs of Richard Stallman and GNU--find a *REAL* cause to work for 
with the same fervor.  One that helps mankind, or helps to end the violence
and suffering that occurs in their native society.  I mean it appears to this
reader of usenet news that GNU followers expend a *GREAT* deal of energy on
in a manner that does not communicate with others, but rather dictates--

	If you work for [fill in the blank here] you are slime...
	If you purchase software from [fill in the blank here] you are slime...
	If you purchase hardware from [fill in the blank here] you are slime...
	If you support patents and copyrights on software you are slime...
	These companies [fill in the blank here] are slime...

Hardly the way to effectively communicate your views without alienating the
person you supposedly are trying to engage in a dialog!

Perhaps GNUbelievers ought to try and emulate what Doug Englebart is
trying to do with Augment and the Bootstrap consortium....Understand WHY
he embarked 
on his mission to help mankind improve the way we work and communicate with
one another. What if GNU/LPF/FSF embraced this work!

Ideals are nice things to have indeed...yet must they be expressed by
constantly ATTACKING the views of those who disagree with you? It seems as
if in the not too distant future one will find that every thread on usenet
will find itself degenerating into a flamewar over GNU...or my computer is
better than yours.

David Williams

philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (12/13/90)

-- 
Philip Machanick
philip@pescadero.stanford.edu

philip@pescadero.Stanford.EDU (Philip Machanick) (12/13/90)

In article <33894@athertn.Atherton.COM>, dlw@Atherton.COM (David Williams) writes:
|> [...]. The metaphors of LPF & GNU supporters on
|> "Look and Feel" lawsuits and boycotts towards the holocaust and the experiences
|> of Blacks in South Africa, lead one to wonder just what sort of sheltered life
|> they lead. Six million people were butchered in the holocaust. Blacks in 
|> South Africa suffer under a repressive police state, with a below poverty 
|> standard of living. Can either of these experiences be compared to the *IDEAL*
|> or struggle you engage in for "free" software? I think not.

This is quite correct. But in defence of Richard Stallman: I met him at a
conference organized by Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility,
and he was most earnestly explaining the problems of copyright etc. Then he
heard I was from South Africa, and immediately conceded that his problems
were trivial by comparison.

Nonetheless, I must agree that comparing look and feel lawsuits with situations
of gross human rights abuse is over the top and does nothing to promote FSF's
generally worthy case.
-- 
Philip Machanick
philip@pescadero.stanford.edu

edwardj@microsoft.UUCP (Edward JUNG) (12/22/90)

In article <1990Dec10.204331.7166@portia.Stanford.EDU> mcgrant@elaine3.stanford.edu (Michael Grant) writes:
>The bottom line is how DARE you compare that guy who is working for
>Ashton-Tate despite his disagreements with their practies to the passive
>supporting citizens of Nazi Germany.  That is quite offensive and 
>insensitive--particularly in this hypersensitive time, when we have to bite
>our lip when we are tempted to say 'black' instead of 'african-american',
>'gay' instead of 'homosexual', and so on.

Uh, isn't that "person of color" instead of "african-american"?  I
think I'm losing track...

 ;-)


--
Edward Jung
Microsoft Corp.

My opinions do not reflect any policy of my employer.