keving@gaffa.wpd.sgi.COM (Kevin Gurney) (07/15/89)
Mark Anderson writes: > No! No! No! She does NOT die (IMHO)! > But to my surprise, I found that after only a couple of listenings, I > definitely had the feeling she survives. Not, perhaps, because of what > the lyrics say (as we have already seen, the lyrics are ambiguous) but > because of the feelings and emotions the music evoked. In particular, > _The_Morning_Fog_ seems to be about, well, the morning fog. That is, > making it through the night. Gee thanks Mark. If only I had actually listened to the album before posting my opinions. :) (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean to imply that I hadn't actually listened to it.) Why do we assume that since TMF is "cheerful" music that she couldn't have died? Why assume that the physical experience of death is a dark, morbid, scary, painful thing? I've never actually talked to anyone who's died, but I've heard about so-called "near death" experience, where people are technically dead and then come back. The majority of these people talk about being bathed in a bright, hazy light. Sort of like when the sun is out of a foggy day (I went to school in California's Central Valley and we had lots of days like this). Here are the words to "The Morning Fog", as printed on my cassette version of Hounds of Love: The light Begin (sic) to bleed, Begin to breathe, Begin to speak D'you know what? I love you better now. I am falling Like a stone, Like a storm Being born again Into the sweet morning fog. D'you know what? I love you better now. I am falling And I'd love to hold you now. I'll kiss the ground I'll tell my mother I'll tell my father I'll tell my loved one I'll tell my brothers How much I love them. Here are the "hints" I see in this song: 1. Is she physically "falling like a stone"? Couldn't have been a very successful rescue if she is. How about emotionally "falling like a stone"? Doesn't really fit with the rest of the song, does it? What if she's "falling" through this world into another? That makes sense to me. 2. Why does she sing "I'd (I _would_) love to hold you now."? Why not simply "I'll hold you now."? Unless she can't BECAUSE SHE'S DEAD! 3. The couplet "Being born again/Into the sweet morning fog" just sounds too much like she's passed on to the next world. I can't think of any other _plausible_ interpretation. Oh she could be saying, "Now that I'm out of the water, I feel so young again. My, look how foggy it is this morning. What's that smell? Does someone have candy?", but that's just way to clumsy for me to believe. If you can get past the cliche that "happy music means happy things are happening", then it's not too hard to see that the heroine could have died. BTW - I agree with Mark Anderson that WYw/oM is a halucination, and not a "spiritual visit". I don't think that defeats my theory though. I have always claimed that she dies at the end of "Hello Earth", at the spoken line (in German) "Deeper, deeper, somewhere in the deep there is a light". God, it just all fits! Can't you see it! (I feel like a frustated poet who can't find the right words.) Go ahead, hack away. -- Pres. Bush's biggest fear about a burning flag is that he won't be able to unwrap himself from it in time. keving@gaffa.wpd.sgi.com
bloch%mandrill@UCSD.EDU (Steve Bloch) (07/17/89)
Well, everyone's favorite subject again rears its ugly head. And this
time I'll bite. While rather offended by IED's choice of words
("there are no two ways about it", "this is not a subject for debate",
"this is an ignorant reaction", "did _no-one_ learn anything..."), I'm
inclined to agree with his substantive view. To which end I hereby
post some substantive replies to Kevin Gurney, who writes:
>1. Is she physically "falling like a stone"? Couldn't have been a very
>successful rescue if she is. How about emotionally "falling like a stone"?
>Doesn't really fit with the rest of the song, does it? What if she's
>"falling" through this world into another? That makes sense to me.
What if she's in a nearly zero-g, or "free-fall", environment, such as
(for example) floating in water, especially salt water? And a whole
night in the water, if one didn't freeze to death, would leave one's
sensory nerves about as responsive as a stone.
>2. Why does she sing "I'd (I _would_) love to hold you now."? Why not simply
>"I'll hold you now."? Unless she can't BECAUSE SHE'S DEAD!
Someone else handled this one pretty well.
>3. The couplet "Being born again/Into the sweet morning fog" just sounds
>too much like she's passed on to the next world. I can't think of any other
>_plausible_ interpretation.
The ocean has been used as a metaphor for rebirth _within_this_life_
for thousands of years. Nearly every ancient culture that dealt with
the sea had a "Jonah" story, as Joseph Campbell points out, emphasizing
that these legends indicate someone going through a traumatic
experience and coming out as a different person, with a feeling of
newness that could well be interpreted as "being born again",
especially if one's sensory inputs were screwed up. I've experienced
something less intense, but similar, working all-nighters in the
terminal room and emerging from that dark hole into the 6AM light and
fog, which tends to make everything look new and half-formed.
"Once again your words have pulled the universe out of place/
To exist it need not have a human face." -- Jane Siberry
bloch%cs@ucsd.edumanderso@UGLY.CS.UBC.CA (Mark Anderson) (07/17/89)
After IED's posting I'm almost afraid to post this followup, and risk prolonging this thread... ;-) In <8907150052.AA12526@gaffa.wpd.sgi.com>, keving@gaffa.wpd.sgi.COM (Kevin Gurney) writes: >Gee thanks Mark. If only I had actually listened to the album before >posting my opinions. :) (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you >didn't mean to imply that I hadn't actually listened to it.) [...] >Why do we assume that since TMF is "cheerful" music that she couldn't have >died? [...] >If you can get past the cliche that "happy music means happy things are >happening", then it's not too hard to see that the heroine could have died. All I was doing was giving _MY_ interpretation of _The_Ninth_Wave_!!! In contrast to your interpretation. Of course _TMF_'s upbeat mood can be inter- preted as a positive death-and-rebirth experience. But for me, the music (especially when taken in context with the lyrics (see IED's reply to your posting)) invokes the idea that our heroine survives. Clicheed or not. >Here are the words to "The Morning Fog", as printed on my cassette version >of Hounds of Love: Gee, thanks Kevin. If only I had actually listened to the lyrics before posting my opinions. :-) :-) :-) --- Mark Anderson <manderso@ugly.cs.ubc.ca> {att!alberta,uw-beaver,uunet}!ubc-cs!{good,bad,ugly}!manderso "Narrow mind would persecute it, die a little to get to it..."
erlkonig@WALT.CC.UTEXAS.EDU (Christopher North-Keys) (07/18/89)
Remember that Kate Bush has been said to find the more magical side of life
"fascinating", and has never (as far as I know) rejected the possibility of
such talents as empathy, projection, foreknowledge, etc. With this in mind
as possible source material for the _TNW_, the interpretation subject to
the least ambiguity -- often the interpretation intended by the poet --
supports the survival of the heroine. On the issue of poetry not having a
correct interpretion: The correct interpretations will sit well with the
*entire* work, illuminating *all* of its components. Such, at least, is
what I consider to be high poetry.
Quotes from:
g: Kevin Gurney
b: Steve Bloch
------------------------------
g>1. Is she physically "falling like a stone"? Couldn't have been a very
g>successful rescue if she is. How about emotionally "falling like a stone"?
g>Doesn't really fit with the rest of the song, does it? What if she's
g>"falling" through this world into another? That makes sense to me.
This [falling] expresses well the subjective descriptions of the spirit
falling back into the body after an out-of-body experience. Such
experiences are thought to happen to those attempting escape from
especially harrowing events, perhaps causing death by abandonment. This
fits nicely with her elder self's entreaty to her to *remain* in _JoL_,
rather than to simply leave her body to die. This is also supported by her
visit to her loved in _WYWM_, but inability to touch him.
The lines:
The light
Begin (sic) to bleed,
Begin to breathe,
Begin to speak
sound to me like the rediscovery of what her body feels like, after having
been away for so long. I believe the keyword here is "falling", not
"stone", *unless* perhaps she returns to her body to find it sinking like a
stone, and the verse is describing the swim back up to the surface.
It would be a nice double intent, if so.
------------------------------
g>3. The couplet "Being born again/Into the sweet morning fog" just sounds
g>too much like she's passed on to the next world. I can't think of any other
g>_plausible_ interpretation.
Death is often used as a metaphor for change, especially when associated
with trauma. If an object/person is changed, the old *identity* is then
obsolete, null, or dead. This metaphor is most clearly seen in the Tarot
deck card "Death" (usually a skeleton) the tarot card for change. Hence,
this reads for me as a line of rebirth. Someone said:
?> a completely consistent, natural way of describing her catharsis--the
?> epiphanous experience she has undergone through her traumatic night in the
?> water.
------------------------------
b>The ocean has been used as a metaphor for rebirth _within_this_life_
b>for thousands of years.
This is a good observation by Bloch. My thoughts on the sea involved a
certain inevitable, overpowering quality -- certainly an auspicious place
for a person's being remade.
------------------------------
I personally have not yet decided whether or not she is rescued, although
I am curious about the helicopter, and the line "Get out of the water!".
I also wonder about the word "Murderer" in _Hello_Earth. It this an
accusation of her as-yet unborn children? Is it this that brings her
back? (Does anyone have all this song written down?)
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Seo: Harp[@Mcc.Com] / \/\ ^*^ Christopher North-Keys
Tha mi gu trang a'cluich. / \ \ Systems Administrator, MCC
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