Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/08/89)
Really-From: juli@lafayette.dartmouth.edu (Julian West) >Edward Suranyi writes: >>P.S. I thought Gaffa was a town in Israel. :-) :-) >I thought "Suspended in Gaffa" must be related to Huxley's _Eyeless_In_Gaza_. But Ed was probably thinking of Jaffa! At least, that's the first thing _I_ thought of when I heard the song. >Well, yes I can cite a precedent. Syd Barrett used James Joyce's words >for his song (I think it was) "Golden Hair" from 1969-70 ("Madcap Laughs" or >"Barrett", can't remember which). There is a credit on the album stating >that Syd got permission to use the lyrics. Greg, can you tell me more about this? Is there a chance of finding the album still on the market? ----------------------------------------------------- Thanks to Jon Drukman for putting himself out on a limb with some theories about the new songs. I have some replies: > Love and Anger: well, i'd say this one is about love, on the one hand, > and gee, could it possibly be anger on the other? Yeah. No death here. I disagree, Jon. This could possibly be a "Teen Suicide: Don't Do It" song. Consider the lines "What would we do without you?" "You might not think so now ... someone will come to help you." > The Fog: this is _plainly_ an outtake from "the Ninth Wave" I agree with you here. Do you think it was really intended to fit into the _9th Wave_ sequence somewhere? _Now_ will you guys believe she survives at the end of _The_Ninth_Wave_? She's still around on the new album! :-) :-) > Heads We're Dancing: This song remains a major puzzle to me. If my > crazy theories regarding the lyrics are correct, then death could be a > major text here. six million deaths, to be precise! I don't think you are crazy here either! I really think the song is about the way Europe was seduced by Hitler in the '30s, and didn't know who it was dancing with until it woke up and smelled the coffee the morning after. Get your half-assed theory out in the open! What's with using Ed Suranyi as a confidant? > There seems to be a line where Kate says "It was 1939 before > the music started" as well. Actually the line is "It was '39 before..." No "19". But otherwise you are right. I transcribed all the lyrics to side one (which I could understand) last night. I'll post them later. Thanks also for your list of pop songs setting literary texts. None was familiar to me. ------------------------------------------------- Julian
rico@dehn. (Rico Tudor) (10/09/89)
In article <8910080057.AA04862@lafayette.dartmouth.edu> Love-Hounds@GAFFA.MIT.EDU writes: >Really-From: juli@lafayette.dartmouth.edu (Julian West) > >>Edward Suranyi writes: >>Well, yes I can cite a precedent. Syd Barrett used James Joyce's words >>for his song (I think it was) "Golden Hair" from 1969-70 ("Madcap Laughs" or >>"Barrett", can't remember which). There is a credit on the album stating >>that Syd got permission to use the lyrics. > >Greg, can you tell me more about this? Is there a chance of finding the >album still on the market? I have not seen Syd Barrett's two early solo albums. However, "Opel" is currently available; I have it on CD. This consists of unreleased songs and alternate versions of songs on the solo albums. In particular, two different renditions of "Golden Hair" are featured. Quote: GOLDEN HAIR* 1:42 recorded 12th june, 1969 (take 6) produced by dave gilmour take II was used on "the madcap laughs" *The lyric of "Golden Hair" is from a poem by James Joyce. Permission for use granted by The Society of Authors, literary representatives of the estate of James Joyce. My transcription: lean out your window golden hair i heard you singing in the midnight air my book is closed i read no more watching the fire dance on the floor i've left my book i've left my room for i heard you singing through the gloom singing and singing a merry air lean out your window golden hair Most of the tracks on "Opel" consist of Syd singing and playing acoustic guiter, with no multi-tracks or overdubs. But he can really fill out the sound, and the performances are riveting. A "must" for fans of Syd and early Pink Floyd.
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/09/89)
Really-From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU> >Really-From: juli@lafayette.dartmouth.edu (Julian West) > >Thanks to Jon Drukman for putting himself out on a limb with some theories >about the new songs. I have some replies: > >> Love and Anger: well, i'd say this one is about love, on the one hand, >> and gee, could it possibly be anger on the other? Yeah. No death here. > >I disagree, Jon. This could possibly be a "Teen Suicide: Don't Do It" song. >Consider the lines "What would we do without you?" "You might not think >so now ... someone will come to help you." I don't really see much support of that theory. The chorus, which presumably contains the "kernel" of the song (as it is repeated a lot) says: "Take away the love and the anger, and the little piece of rope (hope) holding us together..." which says to me that to "let go of these feelings" is the end of the relationship, because you gotta have LOVE and ANGER to have a vital relationship. Once the strong emotions are gone (even if they are negative, such as anger), then you just don't care about the other person anymore -- I had a litle chat like this with my last girlfriend. I said, "Even if you hate me, I don't care, because it means you have a _strong_emotion_ for me." (OK, I'm a bit of a drip, but I was in love, so show some respect, you clods!) "It cuts so deep that you don't think that you can speak about it." This says to me that we're back in Running Up That Hill land. Communication is still a problem. Open up! Even if you have negative feeligs, you must let them out! (This is a recurring theme in KT work, so I think I'm justified in presuming it here.) "We're building a house of the future..." And how can a house be built on shaky (not completely open) foundations? "Don't think that you can't ever change the past and the future." Explain how you were feeling at the time! TALK! I read the "you might not think so now" lines in line with the comments I have made above. Don't be fooled by the appallingly happy and oh-so-catchy music. I think this song has much in common with RUTH... >> The Fog: this is _plainly_ an outtake from "the Ninth Wave" > >I agree with you here. Do you think it was really intended to fit into >the _9th Wave_ sequence somewhere? No, I'm being facetious again. But there are so many musical, timbral, and thematic links to so many songs from _The_Ninth_Wave_, that it's hard to draw any other conclusion. Again, the lyrics may disprove me, but most of the ones that I am able to comprehend seem to be very similar to Ninth Wave images/ideas. Besides, if you sandwich it in either right before or after "Watching You Without Me" it fits wonderfully! >_Now_ will you guys believe she survives at the end of _The_Ninth_Wave_? No. >> Heads We're Dancing: This song remains a major puzzle to me. If my >> crazy theories regarding the lyrics are correct, then death could be a >> major text here. six million deaths, to be precise! > >I don't think you are crazy here either! I really think the song is about >the way Europe was seduced by Hitler in the '30s, and didn't know who >it was dancing with until it woke up and smelled the coffee the morning after. >Get your half-assed theory out in the open! What's with using Ed Suranyi >as a confidant? Ed is a swell guy, and he admits that he has trouble interpreting lyrics to pop songs. I am an English major so I spend all day interpreting words in strange manners. Thus he is perfect fodder for my fancy logistical footwork. But I will try to stick to the advice of my Practical Criticism instructor who said, "Play fair with the text." Forthwith, here's The Drukman Text of "Heads We're Dancing": But first, a note: I don't think it's an allegorical song, because Kate usually is very literal minded when she tells a story. Think of "Cloudbusting" or "Houdini" where all the lyrics make perfect sense if you happen to know exactly what she's talking about. In fact, I can't think of a single allegorical text in the KT oeuvre. It may be late at night however, and my memory might not be sharp as a razor... Anyway, here's what I hear, without all the repetitions... -------- You talked me into the game of chance It was '39 before the music started When you walked up to me and you said, "Hey, heads we'll dance." Well, I didn't know who you were until I saw the morning paper There was a picture of you across the front page It looked just like you in every way But it couldn't be true - just a damn stranger They say that the devil is a charming man And just like you I bet he can dance When you coming up behind with his long tail ??? [ JSDNote (TM): This is _really_ concrete language for a supposedly metaphorical song. These events are so meticulate, and sequential, that I can't see how we're supposed to take them as allegory. Why the hell can't it be a person dancing with someone who decides whether to dance on the flip of a coin? It sounds like a great way to meet chicks, if you ask me, and I intend to try it out at the next appropriate social event I'm at. ] Oh tails in the air, but the penny landed heads we're dancing Picture of you, in uniform Standing there with your head held high and ??? to the floor??? But it couldn't be you, it's a picture of Hitler [ JSDNote (TM): This seems to me like the protagonist is sitting at her breakfast table and she's looking through the paper, and she sees that the guy who gave her a good tango last night just happens to be the most evil man on the planet. Kind of a shockeroo, eh? ] We go doo doo doo doo doo, etc Do you wanna dance? Well I couldn't see you ??? so I just stood there laughing [ repeat the 'picture of you' lines ] OK, so here's what I read out of this tune: this guy hits on her at a party and she goes along with it. Next morning she finds out she just had a whirl around the room with a terrifying butcher. She has a chuckle over this, snapping her fingers in a "well golly gee whiz" attitude, and that's the end of story. Sounds like the kind of thing that Kate would make a song out of. Remember the down-to-earthness of "There Goes A Tenner." I think it is relevant. Could this be possibly based on an actual historical event? Wouldn't surprise me if it were. Well, enough late night ramblings. Please folks, let's get onto this! I'm sure we can puzzle it all out, even without the lyrics sheets. -- +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ----------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | "I like George Bush, but this 'kinder, | | \|on |/rukman | jsd@umass.bitnet | gentler' crap is killing us." - D.Trump | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/09/89)
Really-From: greg@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Greg O'Rear) In article <8910080057.AA04862@lafayette.dartmouth.edu> Love-Hounds@GAFFA.MIT.EDU writes: >Really-From: juli@lafayette.dartmouth.edu (Julian West) (I wrote:) >>Well, yes I can cite a precedent. Syd Barrett used James Joyce's words >>for his song (I think it was) "Golden Hair" from 1969-70 ("Madcap Laughs" or >>"Barrett", can't remember which). There is a credit on the album stating >>that Syd got permission to use the lyrics. > >Greg, can you tell me more about this? Is there a chance of finding the >album still on the market? I bought a used copy of a compilation of the two Barrett albums I mentioned. It is an import on the Harvest budget label (like "Fame series" or something). The imports of the original forms of the album are probably still available. -- Greg O'Rear Industrial and Systems Engineering Department, University of Florida Address: greg@beach.cis.ufl.edu
ed@das.llnl.gov (Edward Suranyi) (10/10/89)
>Really-From: Jon Drukman <jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU> > >Ed is a swell guy, and he admits that he has trouble interpreting >lyrics to pop songs. I am an English major so I spend all day >interpreting words in strange manners. Thus he is perfect fodder for >my fancy logistical footwork. Thanks! I'm just happy to be of service. >OK, so here's what I read out of this tune: this guy hits on her at a >party and she goes along with it. Next morning she finds out she just >had a whirl around the room with a terrifying butcher. She has a >chuckle over this, snapping her fingers in a "well golly gee whiz" >attitude, and that's the end of story. Sounds like the kind of thing >that Kate would make a song out of. Remember the down-to-earthness of >"There Goes A Tenner." I think it is relevant. Could this be possibly >based on an actual historical event? Wouldn't surprise me if it were. I have a question. When she says "It's a picture of Hitler", is she being literal or metaphorical? In other words, is it a picture of a "terrifying butcher" (as you put it, Jon) which reminds her of Hitler, or was she really dancing with Der Fuehrer? The problem is, neither quite makes sense to me yet. If it's metaphorical, then why does she mention the year being 1939? On the other hand, I can't imagine that anybody in Germany in 1939 could possibly fail to recognize Adolf Hitler! So what gives? Ed (Edward Suranyi) Dept. of Applied Science, UC Davis/Livermore ed@das.llnl.gov Until further notice, I CANNOT reply to mail by UUNET. So don't ask me to.
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/10/89)
Really-From: gatech.edu!mit-eddie!gaffa.mit.edu!jsd@cs.utexas.edu (Jon Drukman) From: ed@das.llnl.gov (Edward Suranyi) >I have a question. When she says "It's a picture of Hitler", is >she being literal or metaphorical? In other words, is it a picture >of a "terrifying butcher" (as you put it, Jon) which reminds her >of Hitler, or was she really dancing with Der Fuehrer? I believe it is a literal song. She literally was hit on by Adolf and she had a dance with him, ignorant of his identity. >The problem is, neither quite makes sense to me yet. If it's >metaphorical, then why does she mention the year being 1939? Ah, now we get into historical significance. As I learned in my English class this week (the same one that gave us a handout of the Molly Bloom soliloquy from Ulysses last week -- I think this guy is a secret Kate fan), 1939 is the year when WWII really got underway, or at least the events prompting it. This is the year that Hitler invades Czechoslovakia. >On the other hand, I can't imagine that anybody in Germany in >1939 could possibly fail to recognize Adolf Hitler! Ah, now you're reading into the song a meaning that isn't there at all. Who ever said it took place in Germany? Maybe it takes place in Czechoslovakia the day before the invasion. Chew on that one! +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ----------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | "I like George Bush, but this 'kinder, | | \|on |/rukman | jsd@umass.bitnet | gentler' crap is killing us." - D.Trump | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
ed@das.llnl.gov (Edward Suranyi) (10/11/89)
>Really-From: gatech.edu!mit-eddie!gaffa.mit.edu!jsd@cs.utexas.edu (Jon Drukman) > >>The problem is, neither quite makes sense to me yet. If it's >>metaphorical, then why does she mention the year being 1939? > >Ah, now we get into historical significance. As I learned in my >English class this week (the same one that gave us a handout of >the Molly Bloom soliloquy from Ulysses last week -- I think this >guy is a secret Kate fan), 1939 is the year when WWII really got >underway, or at least the events prompting it. This is the year >that Hitler invades Czechoslovakia. Are you trying to make me look like a fool? Of course I know that 1939 was the year WWII began, by Germany's invasion of Poland. My point was that if the Hitler line is meant metaphorically, then the year is irrelevant -- she could be singing about one of today's mass murderers. But since you believe that the line is meant literally (a view I actually share), then this discussion is unnecessary. >>On the other hand, I can't imagine that anybody in Germany in >>1939 could possibly fail to recognize Adolf Hitler! > >Ah, now you're reading into the song a meaning that isn't there >at all. Who ever said it took place in Germany? Maybe it takes >place in Czechoslovakia the day before the invasion. Chew on >that one! No, I can't accept this either. I simply can't believe that anybody in Europe in 1939 wouldn't recognize Hitler -- unless Kate is portraying a very stupid girl in this song. Is this what you're suggesting? And, as far as I know, Hitler never left Europe in 1939. Ed (Edward Suranyi) Dept. of Applied Science, UC Davis/Livermore ed@das.llnl.gov It appears that I now can get UUNET to work. So feel free to write to me.
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/11/89)
Really-From: Lazlo Nibble <lazlo@ariel.unm.edu> Ed Suryani writes: > I simply can't believe that > anybody in Europe in 1939 wouldn't recognize Hitler -- unless > Kate is portraying a very stupid girl in this song. Is this > what you're suggesting? 1939 was not 1989, Ed. There was no television, and no real concept of "mass media" at the time. If you didn't read the newspaper or watch the newsreels it would be very possible to get through life in Europe in 1939 without having the slightest idea what Hitler looked like, and without being "stupid" because of it. Even if you *had* seen the man once or twice in the paper, it is *also* more than possible to have met him is person without recognizing him . . . "You don't look anything like your picture!" syndrome. Hitler wasn't the internationally-known lunatic and mass murderer then that he is today. He was barely getting started. Lazlo (lazlo@ariel.unm.edu) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Reading news takes on entirely new significance in a 48x80 window." -- Lazlo
ed@das.llnl.gov (Edward Suranyi) (10/11/89)
>Really-From: Lazlo Nibble <lazlo@ariel.unm.edu> > > >1939 was not 1989, Ed. There was no television, and no real concept of >"mass media" at the time. If you didn't read the newspaper or watch >the newsreels it would be very possible to get through life in Europe >in 1939 without having the slightest idea what Hitler looked like, and >without being "stupid" because of it. Even if you *had* seen the man >once or twice in the paper, it is *also* more than possible to have met >him is person without recognizing him . . . "You don't look anything >like your picture!" syndrome. > >Hitler wasn't the internationally-known lunatic and mass murderer then >that he is today. He was barely getting started. > I agree that Hitler was not yet known to be a lunatic and mass murderer. However, I stand by my conviction that anybody who had the slightest education knew of him and what he looked like. He became internationally famous at the time of the Beer Hall Putsch in the late 20's, and by the time he became dictator of Germany in 1933, he was undoubtedly the most well-known man in Europe. His name was without question in the newspaper every day for six years before 1939, and his picture appeared regularly too. If the protaganist (let's call her KT) looked in the newspaper the day after the dance, and saw his picture, why didn't she look in the paper any day before that, going back many years, and see his picture? Are you suggesting that the day after the dance just happened to be the first time KT looked in a newspaper in years? It still seems to me that the choice is between her being very stupid or obtusely ignorant. My mother was from a very small village in Hungary. She was only two in 1939, but I have not the slightest doubt that her parents were very aware of Hitler and how he looked, and that they greatly feared him, in fact. I know this from many conversations with them. Don't forget that many of the anti-Jewish laws were passed by 1936, well before the start of the war. Apparently, Kate got the idea from a similar incident that occurred with Dr. Oppenheimer. That's much more believable. It's easy to believe that someone wouldn't recognize him. I'm a physicist, and even I'm not sure what he looked like, offhand. There is only one somewhat reasonable explanation. Perhaps KT *did* know what Hitler looked like from pictures, but he looked sufficiently different in real life that she didn't recognize him. Never having seen Hitler in real life myself, I couldn't say how likely this is. However, as everyone knows, Hitler's appearance was quite distinctive. The song is wonderful, and expresses a very interesting, terrifying idea. I just don't believe it could ever actually have happened. Ed (Edward Suranyi) Dept. of Applied Science, UC Davis/Livermore ed@das.llnl.gov It appears that I now can get UUNET to work. So feel free to write to me.
stevesc@microsoft.UUCP (Steve Schonberger) (10/15/89)
In article <35558@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> ed@das.UUCP (Edward Suranyi) writes: >There is only one somewhat reasonable explanation. Perhaps KT >*did* know what Hitler looked like from pictures, but he looked >sufficiently different in real life that she didn't recognize >him. Never having seen Hitler in real life myself, I couldn't >say how likely this is. However, as everyone knows, Hitler's >appearance was quite distinctive. It's very easily possible that this is the case. Consider that the woman in the song only had newspaper pictures to go by. Those are generally rather fuzzy black and white pictures, and fuzzier 50 years ago than now. I've met people whose pictures I've seen in advance, when those pictures have often been clear and color. I've still not been able to recognize quite a few of those people in person, because people _do_ often look different in person. Some of those people have been famous or semi-famous, and some have just been net friends who I've traded pictures with. When I first met my (then future) girlfriend, I had three pictures of her, one a very clear color picture. Still, I barely recognized her, though it was easier because she and the friend she had with her were the only ones present in the place we agreed to meet. The woman in the song would have had the additional confusion that most the pictures she would have seen of Hitler would have been formal portraits, compared to an informal setting in a presumably dimly lit dance hall. The final thing to lead her to overlook the resemblance is that one wouldn't expect to find a famous dictator socializing in a dance hall. It's very possibly that she would not realize who it was until the sobriety of the next day. -- Steve Schonberger microsoft!stevesc@uunet.uu.net "Working under pressure is the sugar that we crave" --A. Lamb