Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/26/89)
Really-From: sco!stewarte@ucscc.UCSC.EDU Oops, sorry about that last message. It was a mistake, obviously. However, I do want to respond to the following from Michael Mendelson <mendel@cs.uiuc.edu>: >Well, you must have been dreaming because you have misinterpretted what >I said. (It appears that other people have done the same thing, so I >will clarify what I meant.) What I am expressly NOT saying is that Hitler >should be viewed as the Devil, or some other non-human entity. NO, >not at all. I agree with you and the others who have so correctly >observed that the scariest thing about the Holocaust and the Nazis >was the fact that they (not just Hitler, but all of them) were human. >My point, however, is that any attempt to include Hitler and the Nazi >attrocities in a song (or any other art form for that matter -- with >the exception of memorials set up to explicitly *commemorate* the >slaughter of over 6 million people) and in particular in a song that >romanticizes, even a slight bit (as you must admit KT's song does), >Hitler or is cohorts, is dangerous, because it serves to partially >eclipse the totally heinous nature of Hitler's actions, and these must >in no way be diminished. Certainly, I admit that the song romanticizes Hitler, in the sense that it depicts him as charming and charismatic. This shouldn't be a shock to anyone who's seen a documentary on World War II or the Holocaust, as nearly every one of them will tell you how charismatic a leader Adolf Hitler was. I think the crux of our argument is that I don't believe that this trivializes his actions at all. In my opinion, the best memorial we can give the victims of the Holocaust is ensuring that such a thing never happens again. Remembering that even Hitler could be charming helps us in that. If Ronald Reagan had ordered us to round up all the Jews and homosexuals, would we have gone along with it because he seemed like such a nice man? It's always the most charming ones that are the most dangerous... Just to clarify my interpretation, here are the sentences from Michael's original posting to which I was particularly responding: > Hitler's crimes against society are > so heinous, that even a cautious reference tends to trivialize these > acts. I, and many to whom I am close, feel strongly that allusion to > Hitler in any light (e.g. his human side, attractiveness in the midst > of "devil," etc.), however fleeting and cautious, must simply be > avoided no matter the temptation. I don't think I was too far out of line in interpreting this as "you shouldn't acknowledge Hitler's humanity". And again, I have to disagree that it trivializes his acts. >To put Hitler in a song of this type is to do him an honour that >he does not deserve. I'm not sure I'd say he's being honored...really, he's hardly a character in the song at all. The narrator is the only real character in this song, and the real story is about her horror when she realizes just who she was dancing with. So why did KaTe need to mention Hitler at all? Because he's familiar to all, and the scope of his atrocities are pretty much universally acknowledged. I fail to understand how this either honors him or diminishes the impact of the Holocaust. Longwinded again, Stewart
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/26/89)
Really-From: Michael Mendelson <mendel@cs.uiuc.edu> |Was I only dreaming, or did Michael Mendelson <mendel@cs.uiuc.edu> say: | |>The only (minor) complaint I have is with Heads We're Dancing, which, |>despite having the best title of any song on the album, would be better |>off not referring to Hitler. etc. | |I disagree completely. To recognize that Hitler was human does not |trivialize his actions; just the opposite. etc. Well, you must have been dreaming because you have misinterpretted what I said. (It appears that other people have done the same thing, so I will clarify what I meant.) What I am expressly NOT saying is that Hitler should be viewed as the Devil, or some other non-human entity. NO, not at all. I agree with you and the others who have so correctly observed that the scariest thing about the Holocaust and the Nazis was the fact that they (not just Hitler, but all of them) were human. My point, however, is that any attempt to include Hitler and the Nazi attrocities in a song (or any other art form for that matter -- with the exception of memorials set up to explicitly *commemorate* the slaughter of over 6 million people) and in particular in a song that romanticizes, even a slight bit (as you must admit KT's song does), Hitler or is cohorts, is dangerous, because it serves to partially eclipse the totally heinous nature of Hitler's actions, and these must in no way be diminished. To put Hitler in a song of this type is to do him an honour that he does not deserve. . /\/\ / /\/\ / / /_/ / / / "No pinky ring hustlers, No sabre-tooth neighbours"
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/26/89)
Really-From: jdarcy<@multimax.UUCP@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> (Jeff d'Arcy) Michael Mendelson <mendel@cs.uiuc.edu> > ...a song that > romanticizes, even a slight bit (as you must admit KT's song does), > Hitler or is cohorts, is dangerous, because it serves to partially > eclipse the totally heinous nature of Hitler's actions, and these must > in no way be diminished. This topic was touched on in the Q interview (thank you whoever it was that posted it), and I think that KB's motives in writing the song are quite clear. I won't say she was making a point so much as exploring an idea, but the focus of the song seems to be an extreme form of the "just a man" theme. The scary thing about Hitler, which the song brings home, is that he might very well have appeared quite pleasant, charming and innocuous to *anyone* unaware of his identity. For all you know the next person you talk to, no matter how fair their appearance, might be capable of acts that would make Hitler puke. Now, *that* is a lesson we should remember. Jeff d'Arcy jdarcy@encore.com "Quack!" Encore has provided the medium, but the message remains my own
watson@halley.UUCP (William Watson) (11/03/89)
In article <8910262220.AA08452@ucscc.UCSC.EDU> from sco!stewarte@ucscc.UCSC.EDU >In my opinion, the best >memorial we can give the victims of the Holocaust is ensuring that >such a thing never happens again. Remembering that even Hitler could >be charming helps us in that. I think that this is a perfectly reasonable reaction. Does anyone want to comment on the timliness of this reminder, in the centenary year of Hitler's birth? Did KT "just happen" to use Hitler in a song at this time, or was she making a point of reminding folks of the horror he created. William