Julian.West@MAC.DARTMOUTH.EDU (12/07/89)
I wish to congratulate IED on his excellent analysis of the song _Reaching Out_. He has obviously put a significant amount of thought into understanding the song, and, through it, Kate's intentions. And all of this insight into just one song! One quibble: since he concentrated primarily on the structure of the song and the mood it creates, he had few words for the orchestration, which is also, to coin a phrase, perfect. Of course, Kate did not have complete control over the orchestration, except insofar as she elected to work with Michael Nyman, who did the string arrangements. Also, although IED has gone to some trouble to explain what he means when he says "Kate's work _is_ perfect" we are still a little vague about the definition of the word "perfect"; in other words what does it mean to say "Kate's work is _perfect_"? Allow me to explain what _I_ mean by the word, and IED can second my definition or forward an alternate. A work is said to be _perfect_ if no small alteration will improve it. In a strict mathematical setting, this is the notion of a local maximum in calculus. There may exist other maximal points, but they must necessarily be far removed from the one under consideration. Perfection is of course only defined modulo a listener. This definition is clear, has a sound theoretical base, and is workable. It arose in a discussion over Thanksgiving weekend of Stanley Kubrick's film "A Clockwork Orange", which has been described as "one of the few perfect films ever made", which we took to mean that no scene could be added, deleted, or reworked in such a way as to improve the film. (In this case, I don't even think meddling with the soundtrack would do any good. It really is locally optimized.) What makes the definition workable is that we can further define a work to be perfect to the tolerance of our own perceptions if _we_cannot_conceive_ a way to improve it. I am implicitly doing this in my judgement of "A Clockwork Orange". So, if anyone wants to deny that one of Kate's songs is perfect _under_my_definition_, and to submit proof, they will have to explain just how it can be improved. In the case of _Reaching Out_, for example, you could suggest eliminating the "pre-choral refrain", subduing the strings somewhat, or changing a few words. You cannot suggest taking the record and flinging it against a brick wall; this is not a small change. (Conceivably, you could argue that deleting a single song is a small change to the _album_ and might improve it.) There are precious few songs which everyone will agree are perfect. There are plenty of songs which _anyone_ can be convinced are not. Pick a song by Bon Jovi. You can even convince people who like the song that it can be made better. I think that Kate may have produced some imperfect songs in the past seven years. I just can't think what they might be. I certainly defy anyone to suggest improvements in, say, "Night of the Swallow", "Get Out of my House", or "The Ninth Wave". You can set your own standards of success in how well you have established the imperfection of a given song. If your goal is to convince IED, you are probably setting the bar a little high. You might pick some other subset of love-hounds and try convincing them. (By the way, you can suggest restoring the original words to _The_Sensual_World_, but remember that the far-from-perfect decision to remove them was _not_ made by Kate!) ---------------------------------------------- julian ---
sullivan@aqdata.UUCP ("Michael T. Sullivan") (12/08/89)
From article <860849@mac.Dartmouth.EDU>, by Julian.West@MAC.DARTMOUTH.EDU: > > So, if anyone wants to deny that one of Kate's songs is > perfect _under_my_definition_, and to submit proof, they > will have to explain just how it can be improved. Obviously, Kate thinks at least one of here songs is imperfect: which version of "Wuthering Heights" is perfect? -- Michael Sullivan uunet!jarthur.uucp!aqdata!sullivan aQdata, Inc. San Dimas, CA
berns@lti2.lti (Brian Berns x26) (12/09/89)
Julian says: > A work is said to be _perfect_ if no small alteration > will improve it. In a strict mathematical setting, this > is the notion of a local maximum in calculus. You know, when I first read this I thought to myself -- "In a truly anal sort of way, this is a good definition." But then I reconsidered. What you are really defining here is not "perfection", but "accomplishment". By which I mean to say that any song (or other piece of art) which finds itself in a local maximum has merely acheived what it set out to acheive. That's all. By this definition, I don't think you can deny that the last ten singles by Rick Astley, Milli Vanilli, Bananarama, Kilie Minogue, etc. are just as "perfect". Certainly, they are flawlessly polished, complete, and clear; no small alteration will improve these babies. So much for that idea. Another "sound theoretical base" bites the dust. As far as "Reaching Out" and the rest of TSW goes, I think this much is clear: You would be hard pressed to find a group of people who approached this album more eagerly, or with more open minds. Even people who are hoping for "repeats" of old albums were expecting, even wishing, for new ideas and higher peaks. Some philocanines were DISAPPOINTED, like me. Those of you who cannot accept this fact are welcome to bugger off. The claim (made by IED) that this outcome is the result of ignorance is a lot of horseshit. I couldn't care less that "Reaching Out" marries two forms, or is based on a third from the 1800's or whatever. It's a SONG, and a ROCK SONG at that. Get a clue. This intellectual claptrap about trying to PROVE a song's worth is worse than useless. In fact, it was stuffed-up attitudes like this that led to the rebellion of rock music in the first place. I have never met Kate or any of her relatives or ex- doctors, but I think she would probably agree. And don't even get me started on that "mystical" crap. ******************************************************************************** Actual Kate-related questions: 1. What is the phrase Kate repeats at the end of "Watching You Without Me", after the goofy secret message (which I liked much more *before* I knew what she was singing)? It sounds like "release me" to me sometimes, but I'm not sure. 2. Is the 12" version of Cloudbusting the same as the album version? I didn't think Kate would do this, but when I saw the 12" in a store, it didn't seem to indicate that it was any different, and in fact, said "Taken from the LP The Whole Story". What's the deal? Did they release this in conjunction whith TWS, or am I just hallucinating again? 3. IED (if you're still reading this), could you describe again the backing vocals of the last part of "Breathing"? Your original description of what is being said and how it meshes with Kate's lead seemed intruiging, but when I went back to listen to the song, I could not pick up what you were pointing out. 4. Has anyone seen any version of the "This Woman's Work" single in Boston? Do we think it's worth picking up just for the B-sides, kids? I never even saw a "Love and Anger" single, was there one? What was its B-side? -- Brian