Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/05/90)
Really-From: think!ames!claris!portal!cup.portal.com!L-H@EDDIE.MIT.EDU
To: Love-Hounds
Fr: Larry Hernandez (l-h@cup.portal.com)
Re: A Kate and Kylie Fan Speaks His Mind
Dt: 5 June 90
________________________________________
Hi Everyone,
I have offered to post the following letter from a long-time Katefan,
Mr. Bob Davis, since he has no access to the group at the current time.
I periodically give Bob printouts of Love-Hounds transmissions, which
he tells me he is extremely grateful for, especially the substantive
posts from _true_ Katefans. I can certainly vouch for Bob's Kateliness,
as he was one of the very first fanss to turn me on to this wonderful,
wonderful preoccupation. His letter was prompted by reading the
occasional references, mostly negative, to another of his favorites,
Kylie Minogue, by some contributors to this group. I have since
learned from Ed S. that many, manymore negative comments about Kylie
are posted to rec.music.misc. I plan to post Bob's thoughts to that
group as well.
And now, Bob speaks:
___________________
Hi there Kate fans. First of all, let me say I'm one of
you, at least in the sense of being a Kate fan (since
I first heard her music in late '83).
I believe all types of music have a certain value,
because they all appeal to certain people who have that
taste in music. I don't think there's anything strange or
wrong in liking two kinds of music that are very different
from each other. Besides Kate, I like many other people
and groups one might consider having similarities to Kate, at
least in artistic intent. I'm talking about Peter Gabriel, Roy
Harper, Jane Siberry, and many other acts whose
music could be called artsy or experimental. I like some acts
in basically every category of music except for opera (though I
still respect opera as an art form). In addition to non-commercial
artists like Kate, I also like various people and groups in the
field of pop, dance, folk, country, punk, disco, r&b, soul, funk,
rap, reggae, blues, jazz, international, new age, heavy metal, and
classical.
Possibly my favorite female singer in the pop field is Kylie Minogue
(who is as famous in England and Australia as Madonna is in America).
I have noticed not just in Love-Hounds, but from Kate fans and
"serious music" fans in general, much criticism and many insults
directed at pop artists such as Kylie Minogue. (Note I say "artists,"
not just "acts." Just because not all pop acts write or produce
their own material doesn't mean they aren't seriously involved
in work, choices, and decisions in the making of the music, and
Kylie is.) It's fine for Kate fans to not like Kylie or
Debbie Gibson, or whatever the pop act. But to insult these artists
or their music, or imply they are total crap, I think is unfair.
These singers aren't trying to imitate Kate anyway, they're trying
to honestly do the music that feels right to them. If lyrics to a
song are simple, saying either something along the lines of having fun,
or telling a love story or something like that, I think there is
worth in that. I don't want to get too philosophical, but music
is meant to be, or should be, a positive force, and what's wrong
with a basic, feel-good type of thing? I think to totally slam any
style of music, or any individual artist who is doing their best,
is similiar to slamming music as a whole. To be accepting of
others' differences is a sign of maturity.
I apologize if I sound preachy or overly accusatory, but this is
something I wanted to, and felt should, be gotten off my chest.
Viva la Kate and viva la musical freedom!
- Bob Davis Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/05/90)
Really-From: ag@sics.se (Anders G|ransson) Hi! I just want to say that i agree with Mr. Davis on the possibility to sincerely like music and artists of very different kind from each other. If i remember correctly such a katefan as Mr. Drukman admitted a weak spot for some of Madonnas peculiarities! Even if you are so to speak "suspended in gaffa" a certain variety in musical taste cannot be all wrong. Regards Anders
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/05/90)
Really-From: King Hell Wombat <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Fr: Larry Hernandez (l-h@cup.portal.com) (actually Bob Davis' remarks posted by Larry) >not just "acts." Just because not all pop acts write or produce >their own material doesn't mean they aren't seriously involved >in work, choices, and decisions in the making of the music, and >Kylie is.) It's fine for Kate fans to not like Kylie or >Debbie Gibson, or whatever the pop act. But to insult these artists >or their music, or imply they are total crap, I think is unfair. >These singers aren't trying to imitate Kate anyway, they're trying >to honestly do the music that feels right to them. Oh please, Kylie is just another in a long string of those acts that are basically the creation of their producers. Maurice Starr and his revolting assaults on the ears of the world are in the same category. Maybe Stock, Aitken and Waterman are a cut above Starr, but that's like saying that vomit is a cut above shit. I don't believe Kylie or any of the rest of her ilk are honestly doing the music that feels right to them, I believe that they are trying to make a quick buck by purveying media-friendly sex. Except at the end of the pitch, you don't take these prostitutes to bed, you go down to the record shop and buy their albums instead. >If lyrics to a >song are simple, saying either something along the lines of having fun, >or telling a love story or something like that, I think there is >worth in that. I agree completely, but how much investment can a singer have in lyrics that they didn't write? OK, maybe a lot, I've seen some people do very heartfelt renditions of other people's music (Kate doing "Let It Be," for instance), but look at someone like Tone Loc. "Wild Thing" is now the best selling single in HISTORY. He didn't write the words or the music. Sure it may be a FUN TUNE (I don't like it) but how much is it worth when faced with something like, oh, say, Public Enemy? >I don't want to get too philosophical, but music >is meant to be, or should be, a positive force, and what's wrong >with a basic, feel-good type of thing? Nothing at all. People sitting around the campfire, strumming a guitar and singing along is a healthy basic feel-good type of thing. But the large majority of pop music is mass produced, commercial PRODUCT. The record INDUSTRY is an INDUSTRY, a BUSINESS, and profits are their bottom line. >I think to totally slam any >style of music, or any individual artist who is doing their best, >is similiar to slamming music as a whole. To be accepting of >others' differences is a sign of maturity. To offer constructive criticism is the best. I do not accept the differences of people who are in the KKK, so why should I make exceptions for a seemingly harmless "entertainment industry"? If you don't know the answer, there's nothing I can do to help you. >I apologize if I sound preachy or overly accusatory, but this is >something I wanted to, and felt should, be gotten off my chest. Ditto for my remarks. >Viva la Kate and viva la musical freedom! No argument from me on that one! Let me leave you with the lyrical brilliance of Public Enemy: You singers are SPINELESS As you sing your senseless songs to the mindless Your basic subject, love, is MINIMAL It's sex for profit. +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, | | \|on |/rukman | jsd@umass.bitnet | and you need everything we make. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/06/90)
Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) In article <9006051605.AA29916@gaffa.MIT.EDU> Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT. EDU writes: >I don't believe Kylie or >any of the rest of her ilk are honestly doing the music that feels >right to them, I believe that they are trying to make a quick buck by >purveying media-friendly sex. Now, on what basis do you believe this? Certainly Kylie Minogue herself has explicitly stated otherwise. >I agree completely, but how much investment can a singer have in >lyrics that they didn't write? OK, maybe a lot, "Maybe a lot", indeed. Few opera singers, for example, write their own lyrics. >The record INDUSTRY is an INDUSTRY, a BUSINESS, and profits >are their bottom line. Certainly. All art is industry. This in itself tells us nothing about the quality of a particular performance. >Let me leave you with the lyrical brilliance of Public Enemy: Public Enemy are extremely boring.
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/06/90)
Really-From: Escape From Happy Birthday <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) > > >I don't believe Kylie or > >any of the rest of her ilk are honestly doing the music that feels > >right to them, I believe that they are trying to make a quick buck by > >purveying media-friendly sex. > > Now, on what basis do you believe this? Certainly Kylie Minogue herself >has explicitly stated otherwise. Well, I hardly expect them to go around bragging about it. New Dweebs On The Block claim that they're doing music they love, coming from the heart, honest musicians, blah blah blah. Bull cookies. I respect bands who are crap and admit that they're doing it for the money. Sigue Sigue Sputnik spring to mind. They took the piss out of it. Sanctimonious yabbos hypocritically claiming "art" while all the while keeping their eyes on the Bottom Line make me ill. > >Let me leave you with the lyrical brilliance of Public Enemy: > > Public Enemy are extremely boring. This remark is so ludicrous as to hardly warrant further comment. +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, | | \|on |/rukman | jsd@umass.bitnet | and you need everything we make. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/06/90)
Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) >Really-From: Escape From Happy Birthday <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Well, I hardly expect them to go around bragging about it. New Dweebs >On The Block claim that they're doing music they love, coming from the >heart, honest musicians, blah blah blah. Bull cookies. I respect >bands who are crap and admit that they're doing it for the money. >Sigue Sigue Sputnik spring to mind. They took the piss out of it. >Sanctimonious yabbos hypocritically claiming "art" while all the while >keeping their eyes on the Bottom Line make me ill. So, let's see what we have here. You're saying that Kylie Minogue is a hypocrite and a disgusting one at that. Your basis for saying this seems to be that you hold this to be true. >> Public Enemy are extremely boring. >This remark is so ludicrous as to hardly warrant further comment. Certainly it's ludicrous - to those who for some reason are strangely excited by Public Enemy. It's just as ludicrous to say that Kylie Minogue's music is not wonderful. Or, to quote your colorful formulation: "Maybe Stock, Aitken and Waterman are a cut above Starr, but that's like saying that vomit is a cut above shit." Now like everybody else, I take the view that what I consider good is better than what I don't consider good. To take a recent example from rec.music.beatles, I think the Beatles and New Kids on the Block are by no means of equal musical interest or value, in spite of their both having inspired teenage girls to similar frenzy. And it can be fun trying to substantiate and clarify such convictions. Your remarks, however, are merely inane. To chant mindlessly about hypocritical commercialism, practically frothing at the mouth, is to be sure the perfect counterpoint to such gems as your remark - in, I suppose, your more intellectual mode - about singers and lyrics.
vnozick@eagle.wesleyan.edu (06/06/90)
In article <9006060116.AA01354@gaffa.MIT.EDU>, Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU writes: >>Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) >> >> >I don't believe Kylie or >> >any of the rest of her ilk are honestly doing the music that feels >> >right to them, I believe that they are trying to make a quick buck by >> >purveying media-friendly sex. >> >> Now, on what basis do you believe this? Certainly Kylie Minogue herself >>has explicitly stated otherwise. > > Well, I hardly expect them to go around bragging about it. New Dweebs > On The Block claim that they're doing music they love, coming from the > heart, honest musicians, blah blah blah. Bull cookies. I respect > bands who are crap and admit that they're doing it for the money. > Sigue Sigue Sputnik spring to mind. They took the piss out of it. > Sanctimonious yabbos hypocritically claiming "art" while all the while > keeping their eyes on the Bottom Line make me ill. People all have different tastes. When I was younger, I wanted to make music like Debbie Gibson's and others of her ilk. I *still* want to be Madonna. These people sing of love and (often times) a more innocent time--there is nothing wrong with identifying with that. Some people either do not want to be bothered with 'strange' lyrics, or prefer the rhythms of dance music or rap or whatever. It's a shame that people who consider themselves open minded and intellectual feel that they must hate anything popular, dismissing it as crap. Open mindedness means willingness to fairly evaluate and accept ANY and ALL trends. This doesn't mean that one must love Public Enemy, or other blatantly racist groups. One may fight against that, if that's how they feel. But saying that their music has no value whatsoever is being irrational. Of course it has meaning--everything has some meaning and value to somebody. These artists chose to make music, and they chose to make the type of music that they do. And I, as a listener, choose to listen to their expressions because it affects me in some way. And even if that reason is just that I want to dance, that's fair, because perhaps that is what music means to them--a release of tension. Listen to them. Evaluate. But don't be close-minded about it, please. Valerie Nozick vnozick@eagle.wesleyan.edu "And you can dance...for inspiration"--Madonna ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Valerie Nozick "...And then with the charm around him vnozick@eagle.wesleyan.edu He loosened it so if it slipped between my breasts He would rescue it..."--Kate Bush ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/07/90)
Really-From: MasterMind <VNOZICK@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU> Path: eagle.wesleyan.edu!vnozick From: vnozick@eagle.wesleyan.edu Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: A Kate and Kylie Fan Speaks His Mind. Message-ID: <27579@eagle.wesleyan.edu> Date: 6 Jun 90 16:10:54 GMT References: <1990Jun5.174028.22795@sics.se> <9006060116.AA01354@gaffa.MIT.EDU> Lines: 42 In article <9006060116.AA01354@gaffa.MIT.EDU>, Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU writes: >>Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) >> >> >I don't believe Kylie or >> >any of the rest of her ilk are honestly doing the music that feels >> >right to them, I believe that they are trying to make a quick buck by >> >purveying media-friendly sex. >> >> Now, on what basis do you believe this? Certainly Kylie Minogue herself >>has explicitly stated otherwise. > > Well, I hardly expect them to go around bragging about it. New Dweebs > On The Block claim that they're doing music they love, coming from the > heart, honest musicians, blah blah blah. Bull cookies. I respect > bands who are crap and admit that they're doing it for the money. > Sigue Sigue Sputnik spring to mind. They took the piss out of it. > Sanctimonious yabbos hypocritically claiming "art" while all the while > keeping their eyes on the Bottom Line make me ill. People all have different tastes. When I was younger, I wanted to make music like Debbie Gibson's and others of her ilk. I *still* want to be Madonna. These people sing of love and (often times) a more innocent time--there is nothing wrong with identifying with that. Some people either do not want to be bothered with 'strange' lyrics, or prefer the rhythms of dance music or rap or whatever. It's a shame that people who consider themselves open minded and intellectual feel that they must hate anything popular, dismissing it as crap. Open mindedness means willingness to fairly evaluate and accept ANY and ALL trends. This doesn't mean that one must love Public Enemy, or other blatantly racist groups. One may fight against that, if that's how they feel. But saying that their music has no value whatsoever is being irrational. Of course it has meaning--everything has some meaning and value to somebody. These artists chose to make music, and they chose to make the type of music that they do. And I, as a listener, choose to listen to their expressions because it affects me in some way. And even if that reason is just that I want to dance, that's fair, because perhaps that is what music means to them--a release of tension. Listen to them. Evaluate. But don't be close-minded about it, please. Valerie Nozick vnozick@eagle.wesleyan.edu "And you can dance...for inspiration"--Madonna ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Valerie Nozick "...And then with the charm around him vnozick@eagle.wesleyan.edu He loosened it so if it slipped between my breasts He would rescue it..."--Kate Bush ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/07/90)
Really-From: Urge Conch <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) > > >Really-From: Escape From Happy Birthday <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> > > >Well, I hardly expect them to go around bragging about it. New Dweebs > >On The Block claim that they're doing music they love, coming from the > >heart, honest musicians, blah blah blah. Bull cookies. > So, let's see what we have here. You're saying that Kylie Minogue >is a hypocrite and a disgusting one at that. Your basis for saying this >seems to be that you hold this to be true. So, let's review. Kylie Minogue claims to be making music she loves from a purely artistic motivation, whereas anyone with half a mind can plainly see that she's lying. Kate herself (he is quick to point out) has lied on several occasions, although not about major issues about whether she's doing it for the money or from some sense of being inspired by the Muse. Kylie can claim anything she want in print, lots of people do daily, does this make it any more authoritative? This whole thing has become ridiculous. If you think Kylie is a true artiste, working for a noble goal just because she says so then I can't help you, and you probably don't want my help. If you wish to take this discussion any further, send me some e-mail, I'm sure everyone else will be quite relieved. > Certainly it's ludicrous - to those who for some reason are >strangely excited by Public Enemy. It's just as ludicrous to say that >Kylie Minogue's music is not wonderful. If you're not going to take my word for it, even though as a published music critic I am fully qualified, why not take other published music critics words? I have never seen a positive notice of a Kylie record, whereas I have seen several dozen glowing reviews of P.E. >Your remarks, >however, are merely inane. To chant mindlessly about hypocritical >commercialism, practically frothing at the mouth, is to be sure the >perfect counterpoint to such gems as your remark - in, I suppose, your >more intellectual mode - about singers and lyrics. That wasn't my remark, it was a lyrics from a Public Enemy song about how radio ignores music with a message (like P.E.) and focuses instead on "sex for profit" - an issue I noticed you skirted around deftly. Please reply to me personally (e-mail) if you wish to continue this. +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, | | \|on |/rukman | jsd@umass.bitnet | and you need everything we make. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/07/90)
Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) >Really-From: Urge Conch <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Please reply to me personally (e-mail) if you wish to continue this. What?? Do you want to deprive rec.music.gaffa of our scintillating insights? I'm disappointed in you, Drukman. Also in your remark that >If you're not going to take my word for it, even though as a published >music critic I am fully qualified, why not take other published music >critics words? I have never seen a positive notice of a Kylie record, >whereas I have seen several dozen glowing reviews of P.E. Everybody knows that music critics are know-nothing twits, who are only in it for the money. Hypocrites the lot of them. Of course they aver otherwise..
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/08/90)
Really-From: Oggle Bottles <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) > > >Really-From: Urge Conch <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> > > >Please reply to me personally (e-mail) if you wish to continue this. > > What?? Do you want to deprive rec.music.gaffa of our scintillating >insights? I'm disappointed in you, Drukman. That's _Mister_ Drukman to you, cheese. OK, fine, I'll continue on in the public forum until everybody gets pissed and tells me to go stick my head in a bucket of wood glue. But you asked for it. > Also in your remark that > > >If you're not going to take my word for it, even though as a published > >music critic I am fully qualified, why not take other published music > >critics words? I have never seen a positive notice of a Kylie record, > >whereas I have seen several dozen glowing reviews of P.E. > > Everybody knows that music critics are know-nothing twits, who are only >in it for the money. Hypocrites the lot of them. Of course they aver >otherwise.. Ha! You really put your foot in it this time, buddy boy. I worked for a FREE paper for NO MONEY! Every once in a while, they'd give me some promo cassette of something, but usually it was crap and I stuck to reviewing stuff I bought out of my own pocket. So there. Nyah. +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, | | \|on |/rukman | jsd@umass.bitnet | and you need everything we make. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/08/90)
Really-From: James Smith <CCJS@vaxa.nu.oz.au> Path: cc!ccjs From: ccjs@cc.nu.oz (James Smith) Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: A Kate and Kylie Fan Speaks His Mind. Message-ID: <2143.266f9d33@cc.nu.oz> Date: 8 Jun 90 12:42:26 +1000 References: <1990Jun6.090926.10379@sics.se> Organization: University of Newcastle News-Moderator: Approval required for posting to rec.music.gaffa Lines: 24 Torkel Franzen writes: > So, let's see what we have here. You're saying that Kylie Minogue > is a hypocrite and a disgusting one at that. Your basis for saying this > seems to be that you hold this to be true. You're obviously a new reader--if you weren't, you'd know that this is typical of Jon's posts. He seems to have deluded himself into believing that his opinions are facts; he practically said as much on a previous occasion. The best way to deal with him is just to sit back and laugh. He posts less if people don't argue with him, and that keeps a lot of noise out of the group. Although I'm not a great fan, I do like Kylie's music, (and I am a great deal older than 14 :-). I certainly don't hold with the view that anything that is popular must be rubbish. Jim -- James Smith | PRESERVED BY MIRACLE WHEN YACHT SANK STOP SAVED Computing Centre | BY GOOD SHIP TITANIC STOP ARRIVE NEW YORK Newcastle University | TOMORROW STOP WEATHER COLD OTHERWISE ALL WELL ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au | STOP PETE -- Michael Green
ccjs@cc.nu.oz (James Smith) (06/08/90)
Torkel Franzen writes: > So, let's see what we have here. You're saying that Kylie Minogue > is a hypocrite and a disgusting one at that. Your basis for saying this > seems to be that you hold this to be true. You're obviously a new reader--if you weren't, you'd know that this is typical of Jon's posts. He seems to have deluded himself into believing that his opinions are facts; he practically said as much on a previous occasion. The best way to deal with him is just to sit back and laugh. He posts less if people don't argue with him, and that keeps a lot of noise out of the group. Although I'm not a great fan, I do like Kylie's music, (and I am a great deal older than 14 :-). I certainly don't hold with the view that anything that is popular must be rubbish. Jim -- James Smith | PRESERVED BY MIRACLE WHEN YACHT SANK STOP SAVED Computing Centre | BY GOOD SHIP TITANIC STOP ARRIVE NEW YORK Newcastle University | TOMORROW STOP WEATHER COLD OTHERWISE ALL WELL ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au | STOP PETE -- Michael Green
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (06/08/90)
Really-From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) >Really-From: Oggle Bottles <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Ha! You really put your foot in it this time, buddy boy. I worked >for a FREE paper for NO MONEY! Every once in a while, they'd give me >some promo cassette of something, but usually it was crap and I stuck >to reviewing stuff I bought out of my own pocket. So there. Nyah. Yeah, sure, that's what they all say. Pure love of music...unshakeable integrity...poor but honest.. We all know that this is just a front for the gullible. Since you seem to be a highly literal-minded person, I had perhaps better add that I don't really doubt that your blanket condemnation of Kylie Minogue stems from the oh-so-pure heart and mind of a true fanatic. I bow my head reverently.