Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/18/90)
Really-From: nrc@cbema.att.com (Neal R Caldwell, Ii) Actually I'm quite relieved. No drive by shootings, no fire bombings and no lynchings. Maybe I just haven't allowed enough time for everyone to recover from blasphemy induced comas. Of course, Andy had his objeKTions to my post but then I never expected any different. I didn't find any of his disagreements particularly inflammatory since it was never my goal to convince anyone of anything anyway. I'm just submitting thoughts for your consideration. > Really-From: Organized Noise Proliferator <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> > > rather than improvising too much. Given all that talk about the > effort given to merely overdubbing the snare on "Deeper > Understanding," I think the fault lies in the sterility of the drum > sounds rather than the bad programming. You may be right about this. I still don't think the percussion has the same inspired quality in it's rythmic patterns as many of her previous works but even those tracks with potential suffer from just the sort of lifeless drum sounds that you mention. > reverbed noises that have become pop "power ballad" staples. A real > lacklustre bunch, and given that Kate has said she's relying mainly on > factory patches, I think we know where the real problem lies. Have factory patches gotten so good that Kate is willing to use them so widely? Is someone <ahem> telling her that they sound just fine? I wrote off those cheesy horns in _Ken_ because it was obviously a "quicky" but would it really take that much time to get a better sound than that? (Thanks for sending that review along). > From: Andrew Marvick (IED) > > Your premise is unsupported by evidence here, Richard. IED for one > dislikes your terminology. Although IED would not try to argue that _TSW_ > is a "better" record than _The_Dreaming_ or _Hounds_of_Love_, he would > certainly not feel sanguine judging it a "worse" one. Such one-word I've seen the old "you can't say better or worse" argument enough times to understand what your saying but I just can't agree. Aesthetic judgements are essential to art. If we can't make these sorts of judgements how can we even dare to say that Kate is the greatest music artist of our time? If we say that we can't judge the quality of Kate's works against one another how can we judge them against someone elses or say that they are any better? > Therefore, simplistic "better-or- > worse" rating games serve no useful purpose in this context. How does > such a valuation benefit us? What new insight do we gain from the > unsupported statement that one album is "better" than another? Such > judgements don't even begin to address the myriad artistic elements, > large and small, which make up the intricate and _unique_ fabric of > _The_Sensual_World_. If you were talking about comparing _The Dreaming_ to _Hounds of Love_ I would agree that a simple "better or worse" judgement was far too simplistic because these works generally hold up against one another. If you examined each of the many facets of those works you would probably find that in the end the two come out about even with only the issues of personal preference in music left to recommend one over the other. Unfortunately I think that you can look at _The Sensual World_ from almost any angle you please and it simply doesn't measure up to either of those works (with possibly exception of being "her most female work to date"). > How can IED accept your judgement that > "<_TSW_> is not as great a work as either _The Dreaming_ or _Hounds of > Love_" if your only specific discussion of these three musical > cornucopiae is confined to a brief and extremely vague discussion of > sound quality and drum samples? IED is amazed that these are > apparently your primary criteria for judging the quality of the > work of Kate Bush. They may have some relevance on the quality of > _Del's_ work, but you have several times gone to some effort to > use your discussion of Del's contributions as the foundation for > a judgement of Kate's entire album _The_Sensual_World_. It makes no > sense to IED. My main intent wasn't to show _why_ I think _TSW_ is not as great a work as _TD_ or _HoL_ since I pretty much took that as a given from the start. My intent was to examine some of the aspects of Del's involvement and point out that they _might_ not have had an entirely positive affect on the album. That was the primary point of speculation. Granted -- you do not accept the premise of that thesis but my intended audience was those who do accept that _TSW_ is not as great a work as _TD_ or _HoL_ and would be interested in speculating why. In this case I was speculating about Del's involvement. There are plenty of other things we can wonder about and I'm sure we'll have plenty of time to get to them over the next few years. > > Note that the credit is for "recording" not > > "engineering" and to me that just about sums it up. > > Well, sorry, Richard, but IED hasn't seen anything summed up here. That's no surprise, few people did. I was just being flippant here. I'm aware that the two words are sometimes used interchangably but to me you "engineer" something in a studio and you "record" something with a portable cassette recorder. The credits on _Aspects of the Sensual World_ give Del "engineering" credit when he does both recording and mixing, so perhaps that's the distinction that they intend. > Two other points which IED has made twice before in this forum: first, > the final character of the sound on _TSW_ is certainly as much the > responsibility of the mixer, Kevin Killen, as it is that of the engineer > (or "recorder"--an interchangeable term, for all practical purposes), > Del Palmer. I had already given this some thought but felt it was unlikely for two reasons, first Killen's work with Peter Gabriel would seem to indicate that Killen is very capable. I'd gladly take the sound quality of _So!_ over that of _TSW_. Second, we do have one track on the CD that Del mixed as well as recorded. The noise level on _Walk Straight Down the Middle_ does it's best to make the rest of the album sound quiet by comparison. The sound does seem a little more full on that track so perhaps Killen did flatten the rest of the album out a bit, possibly in an attempt to bring the noise levels down to a reasonable level. > project--in this case Killen--rather than to the veteran--Del--who > didn't, after all, do that much more on _TSW_ than he had already done > on _TD_ and _HoL_? I disagree. Del has been involved in the engineering end for some time but this is the first time that they have relied almost entirely on his abilities rather than bringing in more accomplished engineers. As Del handled engineering duties for any other artist? Would any other artist consider him sufficiently experienced to handle a project of that magnitude? > >Unfortunately > >the sound quality of the rest of the album simply doesn't measure up. > >Kennedy's praise is based on one of the high points of a rather > >spotty recording. > > Here IED simply disagrees with you outright, Richard. How are > the sections of _TSW_ which happen to include Nigel Kennedy's parts > "high points" of the album? Your judgement is unexplained, and in IED's > view capricious. There is nothing about the recorded sound of Kennedy's > instruments which sets them apart and above that of Davey Spillane's > or Paddy Bush's or David Gilmour's. Please note that I said _one_ of the high points of the recording, not the high point of the album, as you seem to have misinterpreted. What I'm saying is that Del may be able to put some great sounds on tape but if he can't get the sounds on tape _and_ put them together without allowing the recording to become littered with audio rubbish then he is no "great engineer." > First you seem to be criticizing Kate for not allowing herself > to be influenced by other people's opinions--a quality which IED > has always respected Kate for, by the way. But in the next breath > you criticize Kate for--according to you--_allowing_ herself to be > influenced by Del's opinions! Perhaps I didn't make this point clearly enough. I am on one hand noting that Kate did not receive the sort of regular objective feedback that she had previously felt was so important. On the other hand I'm noting that Del -- who is _not_ in a position to be objective -- may be having an undue affect because of his relationship with Kate. > The > truth is, Richard, you are indeed speculating wildly about just what > influence Del had on the album; yet you nevertheless insist on blaming > him for what you consider the album's weaknesses. It just doesn't seem > fair to IED. Like it or not the general consensus among critics and fans alike seems to be that _TSW_ is not as great a work as some of her previous efforts. If the choices are between speculating on the reasons (you can call it placing blame if you like) and melting into a quivering pool of denial, I'll take the former. It's not my intent to pick on Del, I respect is abilities. Still, I have to wonder if he was out of his depth on this project. Whatever his other influences might have been the fact is that he was credited on this album with a job that did not meet the standards of many listeners. > What IED did say was that it was an extremely unlikely venue > for Kate, because Kate has no interest in giving a simple performance > of a sequence of her songs with minimal acoustic accompaniment. Here's I understand all of that, Andy, and it's a shame. I think it's likely that Kate has little or no interest in putting together the sort of performance she's talking about right now or perhaps ever again. She has however in past made exceptions to perform at various benefits and such without the need for all the extras. Why not then for the promotion of her own work? Particularly with an incredible piece like _This Woman's Work_ at her disposal. If Kate thinks that a simple stand up and play set cannot be a fantastic experience then she isn't getting out to see enough concerts. It's all well and good for us to complain about the poor promotion that her work receives from the record labels but she's not exactly making it easy for them. ---- Don't misunderstand me: _The Sensual World_ is an excellant album. ---- Ok, ok. Katemas is rapidly approaching. I'll be considerably more upbeat as the holiday approaches, I promise. Maybe this is all just a reaction to not having watched the Hammersmith show in a month or two. ---- "Don't drive too slowly." Richard Caldwell att!cbnews!nrc nrc@cbnews.att.com
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/18/90)
Really-From: jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (Public Enemy) >Really-From: nrc@cbema.att.com (Neal R Caldwell, Ii) > >Actually I'm quite relieved. No drive by shootings, no fire bombings >and no lynchings. Maybe I just haven't allowed enough time for everyone >to recover from blasphemy induced comas. Could be that everybody's out buying ivy and roses for their KaTemas parties, too... In response to some comments of mine, you said: >You may be right about this. I still don't think the percussion >has the same inspired quality in it's rythmic patterns as many of her >previous works but even those tracks with potential suffer from just >the sort of lifeless drum sounds that you mention. Yeah, well, you'd be surprised how effective a simple drum pattern can be with the proper sounds. I *don't* think that the percussion programs are anything world-class, either - I'm just saying that there's at least two places where the ball could have been dropped. >> reverbed noises that have become pop "power ballad" staples. A real >> lacklustre bunch, and given that Kate has said she's relying mainly on >> factory patches, I think we know where the real problem lies. > >Have factory patches gotten so good that Kate is willing to use them >so widely? Is someone <ahem> telling her that they sound just fine? The answer to your first question is "yes, in comparison to those available to her for _TD_ and _HoL_." The Fairlight was never really revered for its sterling sound quality, particularly in its model II and IIx incarnations. Now that the Fairlight III is available (which is what Kate had for _TSW_), the sound quality has improved by light years. Listen to the flute sounds and compare them against the breath samples on something like "All The Love" - alias city! (aliasing is that weird kind of digital noise that samples exhibit when they are played out of their range). In fact, factory sounds CAN be fine, but I don't think Kate picked a particularly inspired batch, really. Compare the incredibly bland and typical snares on _TSW_ to those HUGE, brain damaging tom toms on _TD_, f'rinstance. This isn't a fair comparison, since the toms were played live on _TD_ and not sampled, but it illustrates how Kate has steered away from sounds with character and guts in favor of wimpy presets. Love-Hound Larry Deluca has at least two disks full of drum sounds with much more character than those TSW snares. >I wrote off those cheesy horns in _Ken_ because it was obviously a >"quicky" but would it really take that much time to get a better sound >than that? (Thanks for sending that review along). Tough question. The cheesy horns might owe some of their cheese factor to the fact that Kate is just playing standard chords on them, whereas most horn arrangements have a little more to them than that. To get a convincing sequenced horn arrangement is actually a difficult kind of task, because you don't want to just use one sound for the whole thing - real trumpeters play fast attacks, slow crescendos, whatever, and you need to use different samples for each kind of note. But, there are also probably better sounds available - I know the Synclavier library has some great punchy horn shots, and horns are one of the easiest sounds to synthesise convincingly, even... I'd just put it down to the fact that the song was a quickie, and a joke quickie at that. Too bad it's one of the best things to come out of the TSW sessions! +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, | | \|on |/rukman | -Fight The Power- | and you need everything we make. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+