Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/20/90)
Really-From: James Smith <CCJS@cc.nu.oz.au> Path: cc.nu.oz.au!ccjs From: ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au (James Smith) Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: Disappointed with _TSW_ ? Message-ID: <3962.26a6dead@cc.nu.oz.au> Date: 20 Jul 90 10:36:29 +1000 References: <9007112004.AA03702@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> <9007122337.AA01955@csccat.UUCP> Organization: University of Newcastle News-Moderator: Approval required for posting to rec.music.gaffa Lines: 20 Larry Spence writes: > but > the fact is that _many_ (not all) Kate fans are a little disappointed with > _TSW_. That's rather a sweeping statement, Larry. Can I make one as well? Suppose we divide fans into those who discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/ Hounds of Love' stage, and those who discovered her at the beginning. Would it be correct to say that the former are the ones who are 'a little disappointed with _TSW_'? No evidence, no flames, just a thought... :-) Jim -- James Smith | Diplomacy is a game of intense cooperation. It is not a Computing Centre | "nice" game...that is, it is a game where some vices Newcastle University | become virtues. In real life we don't lie to our ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au | friends, nor betray trust, nor attack without warning. | We do in Diplomacy. Often.
ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au (James Smith) (07/20/90)
Larry Spence writes: > but > the fact is that _many_ (not all) Kate fans are a little disappointed with > _TSW_. That's rather a sweeping statement, Larry. Can I make one as well? Suppose we divide fans into those who discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/ Hounds of Love' stage, and those who discovered her at the beginning. Would it be correct to say that the former are the ones who are 'a little disappointed with _TSW_'? No evidence, no flames, just a thought... :-) Jim -- James Smith | Diplomacy is a game of intense cooperation. It is not a Computing Centre | "nice" game...that is, it is a game where some vices Newcastle University | become virtues. In real life we don't lie to our ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au | friends, nor betray trust, nor attack without warning. | We do in Diplomacy. Often.
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/20/90)
Really-From: portuesi%tweezers.esd@sgi.com (Michael Portuesi) > Really-From: James Smith <CCJS@cc.nu.oz.au> > Larry Spence writes: >> but >> the fact is that _many_ (not all) Kate fans are a little disappointed with >> _TSW_. > That's rather a sweeping statement, Larry. Can I make one as well? > Suppose we divide fans into those who discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/ > Hounds of Love' stage, and those who discovered her at the beginning. > Would it be correct to say that the former are the ones who are 'a little > disappointed with _TSW_'? No evidence, no flames, just a thought... :-) I discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/Hounds of Love' stage and I am a little disappointed with TSW. So much for sweeping statements. --M -- __ \/ Michael Portuesi Silicon Graphics, Inc. portuesi@sgi.com "man, this is weak."
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/21/90)
Really-From: Larry Spence <csccat!larry@texbell.swbt.com> In article <3962.26a6dead@cc.nu.oz.au> you write: >Larry Spence writes: > >> but >> the fact is that _many_ (not all) Kate fans are a little disappointed with >> _TSW_. > >That's rather a sweeping statement, Larry. From Spence's Dictionary of Vague Terms: many: more than just a few; a whole bunch of 'em. Not necessarily synonymous with "most." Often used when precise statistics are unavailable. >Suppose we divide fans into those who discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/ >Hounds of Love' stage, and those who discovered her at the beginning. >Would it be correct to say that the former are the ones who are 'a little >disappointed with _TSW_'? I can only offer one data point. I fall into the former category, and I'm a little disappointed in TSW. I'd be interested in hearing what the logic behind this is though. Digression: Is the improvement in the UK import of HoL (vs. the US version) very noticeable? I'm pretty sure this has been beat to death in the past, so if someone can just email me a comparison, I would appreciate it. --- Larry Spence larry@csccat ...{texbell,texsun}!csccat!larry Internet: larry@csccat.lonestar.org
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/21/90)
Really-From: Lazlo Nibble <lazlo%hydra.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu> James Smith writes: > Suppose we divide fans into those who discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/ > Hounds of Love' stage, and those who discovered her at the beginning. > Would it be correct to say that the former are the ones who are 'a little > disappointed with _TSW_'? No evidence, no flames, just a thought... :-) Nice thought, though I don't understand its mechanism. I discovered Kate as a direct result of |>oug's raving about HOUNDS OF LOVE, but I found TSW to be a remarkably queefy and uninspired little album. Where HoL was a solid pleasure and full of wonderful moments, I think TSW is much less coherent and with pleasant interludes few and far between. (The best track, IMHO, was "This Woman's Work", which wasn't even new.) As I said, I'm not sure what the theory MEANS, because I *also* enjoy all her previous albums. TSW is by my way of thinking the weakest of the lot (and I mean to imply as much weakness as possible). Lazlo (lazlo@hydra.unm.edu) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Human -------- Not Human Employment - No Employment Sex ------------- No Sex Freedom ----- No Freedom Choice --------- No Choice TV --------------- No TV Change ------- No Change Memory --------- No Memory Future ------- No Future ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ R E V O L U T I O N
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/21/90)
Really-From: cray@balr.com (Chris Ray) In article <9007201424.AA17326@csccat.UUCP> you write: >Really-From: Larry Spence <csccat!larry@texbell.swbt.com> > >In article <3962.26a6dead@cc.nu.oz.au> you write: >>Larry Spence writes: >> >>> but >>> the fact is that _many_ (not all) Kate fans are a little disappointed with >>> _TSW_. >> >>those who discovered her at the beginning. > >I can only offer one data point. I fall into the former category, and I'm >a little disappointed in TSW. I'd be interested in hearing what the logic >behind this is though. > well this will help the average... I am one of those, the latter, those who where there from the start, and I am also (i can't say it) d*s*pp**nt*d with her last effort.. I hate to do this too, Someone mentioned _TSW_ as Kates most _female_ work.. I am forced to second that comment because, and this is on my first time through the album, I mean I just opened it and listened to it (not even hearing it on the radio) so I mean really my first reaction after listening to it was "KATE BUSH WANTS CHILDREN!!!" I can hear the moans of disgust across the country... But, that is just what I thought.. Chris (not of Chris and Vicki) but still in Chicago -- | Chris Ray cray@balr.com | BALR Corporation | Software Solutions in Real Time
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/22/90)
Really-From: mit-eddie!eddie.mit.edu!henrik@gatech.edu (Larry DeLuca) Thank you, James! I was about to make exactly the same point when I got finished reading my backlog. I think _The Sensual World_ is her most mature work to date (and I also think that _Hounds of Love_ is much more mature than _The Dreaming_, but that _Never For Ever_ has a lot to recommend over both of them). I find _The Dreaming_ to be a challenging, stimulating, intensely exploratory work of a brilliant but immature artist. She's managing all the pieces, but she's still so busy screaming new ideas at the listener she's not quite able to make them work in concert yet. A lot of people like this sort of approach. Because of it, I listen to _The Dreaming_ a lot less than my other Kate Bush albums. For example, _Lionheart_ is chock-full in much the way _The Dreaming_ is, but Powell manages to keep it [just barely] under control in a way that _The Dreaming_ spills over now and then with. Another good example of this problem is _Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814_. There are a number of songs which are so "thick" the album is tiring to listen to. I find after a play of _The Dreaming_ my ears are worn out from the sheer gymnastics of listening to it. _Hounds of Love_ and _The Sensual World_ have incredibly dynamic elements about them, but the pieces in each successive album fit together more smoothly. Each technique is different and has its own merits, but _The Sensual World_ is much more succession-based than opposition-based. One of the really nice things for me about _The Sensual World_ is that so much of it is about Kate Bush the songwriter and less about Kate Bush the producer. Her unmistakable touches are definitely there, but it's definitely the songs that are in the driver's seat this time. _Waking the Witch_ has a power and fury that may never be matched, but _Never Be Mine_ can be as moving a capella as with all the studio trappings. Have you ever tried to sing any song from _The Dreaming_ by itself? Find it disappointing? (Actually, my favorite example is "Never Be Mine" - I was listening to it on my Walkman, and I am one of those annoying people who sings along with his Walkman on the train sometimes, and I was singing along with it, and then I stopped when the song ended, and I noticed the woman across from me was now crying - she had been merely placid before - it's a very moving song, and even someone just singing along with their Walkman can convey that to someone else). This is not to say that I don't approve of creating complete works where production is an important leg of the triangle (certainly some of the work I've done depends on the production as much as anything else). It's just that _The Sensual World_ encompasses some truly great writing, and much more subtlety. Kate Bush doesn't have to shout through reverse-reverb-digitally-delayed-gated-overdrives- through-a-qantec - she can sit there at the piano and make us all stand in awe just by playing "Under The Ivy". I think she's grown up. larry...
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/22/90)
Really-From: jsd@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (Under Gail Succubus) Dear old Jon is feeling a bit crusty today, so prepare for some serious heresy... >Really-From: mit-eddie!eddie.mit.edu!henrik@gatech.edu (Larry DeLuca) >I find _The Dreaming_ to be a challenging, stimulating, intensely >exploratory work of a brilliant but immature artist. She's managing >all the pieces, but she's still so busy screaming new ideas at the >listener she's not quite able to make them work in concert yet. I prefer the rawness and manic energy. It feels as if she's saying "wow! look what you can DO if you push the limits!" >A lot of people like this sort of approach. Because of it, I listen >to _The Dreaming_ a lot less than my other Kate Bush albums. For >example, _Lionheart_ is chock-full in much the way _The Dreaming_ >is, but Powell manages to keep it [just barely] under control in a >way that _The Dreaming_ spills over now and then with. This is a completely ludicrous analogy. _The Dreaming_ was attempting to define an entirely new musical vocabulary, whereas _Lionheart_ was just adding a few frills to some tired old ideas. >Another good example of this problem is _Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation >1814_. There are a number of songs which are so "thick" the album >is tiring to listen to. I find after a play of _The Dreaming_ my >ears are worn out from the sheer gymnastics of listening to it. When artists do that it's called "challenging the listener." I like being challenged, personally. (Of course, there are times when I like to sit back and veg out to something like "A Huge Ever-Growing Pulsating Brain That Rules The World From The Centre Of the Ultra-World.") >One of the really nice things for me about _The Sensual World_ is >that so much of it is about Kate Bush the songwriter and less >about Kate Bush the producer. Her unmistakable touches are >definitely there, but it's definitely the songs that are in the >driver's seat this time. A very astute observation. It's clear which camp I prefer to be in, I guess. ("songs? what're songs? I just make neat noises for five minutes and call it art!") >_Waking the Witch_ has a power and fury >that may never be matched, but _Never Be Mine_ can be as moving >a capella as with all the studio trappings. Have you ever tried >to sing any song from _The Dreaming_ by itself? Find it disappointing? I think you're selling TD short, actually. One of the most amazing things about it is the fact that, yeah, you CAN strip away all the production and actually sing the songs with an acoustic guitar. But that's not the point, is it? I suppose it makes the songs easier for street performers in Harvard Square to cover, but the music was MADE to go with the sounds, and it works brilliantly that way, so why try to make it something it was never intended to be? >(Actually, my favorite example is "Never Be Mine" - I was listening >to it on my Walkman, and I am one of those annoying people who >sings along with his Walkman on the train sometimes, and I was >singing along with it, and then I stopped when the song ended, and >I noticed the woman across from me was now crying - she had been >merely placid before - it's a very moving song, and even someone >just singing along with their Walkman can convey that to someone >else). The only song on TSW that ever really MOVED me was This Woman's Work, and its impact is diminishing for me. On the other hand, Suspended In Gaffa has only grown in its power to bring a tear to the eye. >This is not to say that I don't approve of creating complete works >where production is an important leg of the triangle (certainly >some of the work I've done depends on the production as much as >anything else). It's just that _The Sensual World_ encompasses >some truly great writing, and much more subtlety. Unfortunately, the truly great writing is also mixed in with some less-than-truly-great writing. >Kate Bush doesn't >have to shout through reverse-reverb-digitally-delayed-gated-overdrives- >through-a-qantec - she can sit there at the piano and make us all >stand in awe just by playing "Under The Ivy". Too bad there was so little of that caliber on TSW. >I think she's grown up. And gotten tired. +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, | | \|on |/rukman | -Fight The Power- | and you need everything we make. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/22/90)
Really-From: donley@milton.u.washington.edu (Erik D. Olson) >Really-From: mit-eddie!eddie.mit.edu!henrik@gatech.edu (Larry DeLuca) > >One of the really nice things for me about _The Sensual World_ is >that so much of it is about Kate Bush the songwriter and less >about Kate Bush the producer. Her unmistakable touches are > [stuff about singability on _TSW_ and not on _TD_ deleted.] Interesting. One of my biggest memories when my sister, who had been the first in my family to get turned on to Kate (from hearing Wuthering Heights -- the Pat Benetar version! :) ), showed up with a cassette of _The Dreaming_ one afternoon. Her opinion was "hated it! Where's her singing gone? Too many effects on her voice." (She owned the first 3 albums, btw, and loved them.) I on the other hand, started listening to TD every day on my walkman just because there was so much to LISTEN to. I didn't even understand what half the lyrics were saying until I got my quite worn out dup cassette replaced with a CD a couple years back. I think you are right... TSW is sort of a return to straight songwriting for the most part. I think I'll send my sister a copy. - Erik Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: Disappointed with _TSW_ ? Summary: Expires: References: <60CB52EE4EFF20019E@cc.nu.oz.au> <1990Jul22.030303.17379@eddie.mit.edu> Sender: Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Keywords: >Really-From: mit-eddie!eddie.mit.edu!henrik@gatech.edu (Larry DeLuca) > >One of the really nice things for me about _The Sensual World_ is >that so much of it is about Kate Bush the songwriter and less >about Kate Bush the producer. Her unmistakable touches are [stuff about singability of _TD_ and _TSW_ deleted.] Interesting. One of my biggest memories when my sister, who had been the first in my family to get turned on to Kate (from hearing Wuthering Heights -- the Pat Benetar version! :) ), showed up with a cassette of _The Dreaming_ one afternoon. Her opinion was "hated it! Where's her singing gone? Too many effects on her voice." (She owned the first 3 albums, btw, and loved them.) I on the other hand, started listening to TD every day on my walkman just because there was so much to LISTEN to. I didn't even understand what half the lyrics were saying until I got my quite worn out dup cassette replaced with a CD a couple years back. I think you are right... TSW is sort of a return to straight songwriting for the most part. I think I'll send my sister a copy. - Erik
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/23/90)
Really-From: James Smith <CCJS@cc.nu.oz.au> Path: cc.nu.oz.au!ccjs From: ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au (James Smith) Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: Disappointed with _TSW_ ? Message-ID: <4125.26aad2f5@cc.nu.oz.au> Date: 23 Jul 90 10:35:32 +1000 References: <3962.26a6dead@cc.nu.oz.au> <9007201424.AA17326@csccat.UUCP> Organization: University of Newcastle News-Moderator: Approval required for posting to rec.music.gaffa Lines: 36 Larry Spence writes (in reply to myself): >>Suppose we divide fans into those who discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/ >>Hounds of Love' stage, and those who discovered her at the beginning. >>Would it be correct to say that the former are the ones who are 'a little >>disappointed with _TSW_'? > I'd be interested in hearing what the logic behind this is though. I guess you could group people into two classes: those who are attracted to Kate's music because it is her music, and those who are attracted because it is a particular style of music. Take for example Linda Ronstadt. She has I think had three separate styles: Country and Western, Popular, and 40s. Some people are attracted to her C&W music, others to her popular stuff, and still others to her latest work. There is also a small group who like all her work, because they are attracted by her work rather than the style of the music that she performs. Kate is also an artist who changes her style, though perhaps not as drastically. I'm sure there are people who like her first album, but think the rest were not worth making. I am also sure there are people who feel the same way about HoL. Perhaps for those people TSW is a disapointment because it is a change. Of course, all this is just theory. And I am talking in absolutes. :-) Jim -- James Smith | Diplomacy is a game of intense cooperation. It is not a Computing Centre | "nice" game...that is, it is a game where some vices Newcastle University | become virtues. In real life we don't lie to our ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au | friends, nor betray trust, nor attack without warning. | We do in Diplomacy. Often.
ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au (James Smith) (07/23/90)
Larry Spence writes (in reply to myself): >>Suppose we divide fans into those who discovered Kate at 'The Dreaming/ >>Hounds of Love' stage, and those who discovered her at the beginning. >>Would it be correct to say that the former are the ones who are 'a little >>disappointed with _TSW_'? > I'd be interested in hearing what the logic behind this is though. I guess you could group people into two classes: those who are attracted to Kate's music because it is her music, and those who are attracted because it is a particular style of music. Take for example Linda Ronstadt. She has I think had three separate styles: Country and Western, Popular, and 40s. Some people are attracted to her C&W music, others to her popular stuff, and still others to her latest work. There is also a small group who like all her work, because they are attracted by her work rather than the style of the music that she performs. Kate is also an artist who changes her style, though perhaps not as drastically. I'm sure there are people who like her first album, but think the rest were not worth making. I am also sure there are people who feel the same way about HoL. Perhaps for those people TSW is a disapointment because it is a change. Of course, all this is just theory. And I am talking in absolutes. :-) Jim -- James Smith | Diplomacy is a game of intense cooperation. It is not a Computing Centre | "nice" game...that is, it is a game where some vices Newcastle University | become virtues. In real life we don't lie to our ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au | friends, nor betray trust, nor attack without warning. | We do in Diplomacy. Often.
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/24/90)
Really-From: hsu@Eng.Sun.COM (Dave Hsu [Contractor]) In article <9007221649.AA01797@gaffa.MIT.EDU> ol' jsd writes: >The only song on TSW that ever really MOVED me was This Woman's Work, >and its impact is diminishing for me. On the other hand, Suspended In >Gaffa has only grown in its power to bring a tear to the eye. Bravo. Mostly well said, although I think you shortchange the title track, a marvel of impressionism. After all these years I must confess that my favorite remains Get Out of My House. On a practical note, Bay-Area L-H's south of Mountain View, I plan to be making the trek to Chez IED for Katemas this year (leaving early Saturday in order to arrive fashionably late, return TBD) so do drop me some e-mail soon if you're interested in a ride. "Summer in DC? Hah!" -dave -- Dave Hsu Sun Microsystems MS 14-40 (415) 336 5253 in a pinch: hsu@Eng.Sun.COM 2535 Garcia Avenue, Mountain View, CA 94043 hsu@eng.umd.edu "Time wounds all heels."
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/24/90)
Really-From: oskard%wol@cs.umass.edu
>"Summer in DC? Hah!"
Well at least it only gets up to 95 and humid here in Mass!
David oskard@cs.umass.eduLove-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/27/90)
Really-From: tracyr@uunet.uu.net (Tracy Roberts) >Really-From: hsu@Eng.Sun.COM (Dave Hsu [Contractor]) > > [...] > >On a practical note, Bay-Area L-H's south of Mountain View, I plan to be >making the trek to Chez IED for Katemas this year (leaving early Saturday >in order to arrive fashionably late, return TBD) so do drop me some e-mail >soon if you're interested in a ride. > COOL! That wild and zany Dave Hsu will be at IED's! Gee, with all the trips out here you'd think he'd *move* to our sunny state. See you all on 5 south... jane P.S. Am meeting Jon Drukman at some god-knows-where pub tonight. He regrets that he won't be able to attend IED's bash, as his flight departs from the bay area late Saturday night. He will call us, though. P.P.S. I don't know what jsd looks like, but have been instructed to look for someone with a `god-like physical envelope, wearing a shirt blacker than the black of night, and jeans bluer than the blue of his eyes'. -- "I like an empty head." --sallyw
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/28/90)
Really-From: vecvax!ken@Sun.COM (Ken Stuart) Hello Gaffans, Well, it has been slightly over a year since I posted here. I lost my access to e-mail as well as USENET, since I changed to contract work, but now I have a new "permanent position" with e-mail. My last posting concerned the ethics of distributing tapes of presumably stolen Kate material. What ever happened with that project? Of course, the biggest event since then was TSW, and though I had MHO concerning it, I assumed two things: 1) TSW discussion was long over (at least in terms of general reaction). 2) Love-Hounds would react like most fans and most artists themselves in feeling that the most recent album is, of course, the best. -- I was VERY pleasantly surprised to find that both of the above are wrong. (One of the things that endears Dave Brock [of Hawkwind] to me as an artist is that in 1976, he got the first pressing of his new album, and after having listened to it, tossed it out the window!) It is only with this posting that I have actually listened to all of the KB albums. My current ranking (from best to least) is NOT what I would have expected from what I had read here about them: The Kick Inside Never for Ever The Dreaming Lionheart Hounds of Love The Sensual World I like both simple and complex music, so that is not a factor. [I just put "Kick Inside" into the Walkman to give me a more direct idea of what I'd like to convey - you can't do that with a book or movie review!] First I should say that I like interesting, intelligent lyrics, but that I only look for that after I have come to some sort of feeling about the music. The singing could be in a foreign language and it wouldn't matter to me [in fact one of my favorite albums is "Per Un Amico" by PFM and I still haven't the foggiest idea what they are singing about!]. To me, it is the melodies (and their internal harmonies) that are the exceptional aspect of "The Kick Inside". I think the songs could be very effectively performed by other musicians - as long as they really understood the music (usually not the case with covers!). In fact, I can easily visualize a Wagnerian orchestra playing "Wuthering Heights"; in fact, I think that WH really is classical music. And, the performances in tKI also have qualities not found in the recent albums. In "The Man With The Child In His Eyes", the singing has a calm and clear quality - you get the impression that she is not anxious to get to the next note (hmm... this is a difficult quality to describe...). Each note stands on its own merits. Those of you who agree that different periods of time have different qualities, might also agree that this calm and clear quality was easier to achieve in 1977 than in 1989. Never for Ever was a pleasant surprise. I have yet to read anything about it, nor even see a copy for sale anywhere! (except, of course, for the album I finally found used). It seems to combine some of the best qualities of The Kick Inside and The Dreaming. (PS Unlike the previous poster, I hum songs from the Dreaming all the time!). I like the way the songs in NfE create their own atmosphere (like early Genesis w/Gabriel). The Dreaming does this too, but I think that sometimes the effect is marred by things like talking and telephones ringing that make it sound like you're listening to a movie soundtrack. Frankly, I found TSW to be somewhat crude and commercial in comparison to her other albums. If some consider this to be maturity, then they must have a rather cynical outlook. I think the previous poster who said "tired" was more accurate. Enough said for now... Ken PS Gaffans might like the excellent album by The Sundays... PPS I am looking to purchase a copy of 'the Kick Inside" as: - original US LP - reissue US LP - any issue UK LP - any issue UK CD Send me your horrible obsolete black discs :-) ---
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (07/30/90)
Really-From: Slick Tongue Corrections <jsd@gaffa.MIT.EDU> >Really-From: vecvax!ken@Sun.COM (Ken Stuart) >I like the way the songs in NfE create their own atmosphere (like early >Genesis w/Gabriel). The Dreaming does this too, but I think that >sometimes the effect is marred by things like talking and telephones >ringing that make it sound like you're listening to a movie >soundtrack. "marred"? "MARRED"? Well, I guess this is what makes horse racing... +---------------------- Is there any ESCAPE from NOISE? ---------------------+ | | |\ | jsd@gaffa.mit.edu | ZIK ZAK - We make everything you need, | | \|on |/rukman | -Fight The Power- | and you need everything we make. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+