Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/27/90)
Really-From: cjs@hotlf.att.com Well, Sinead O'Connor has raised the ire of lots of people in NJ. On Friday, at the Garden State Arts Center, she refused to play if the center played the National Anthem -- something they always do before a concert. They backstage people finally agreed because they were afraid they 9000 poeple in the audience would revolt if they cancelled the show. Noone realized what happened until Sat. I was at the concert and didn't realize the anthem wasn't played. My friend wondered about it, but figured they forgot to play it. I found out about it because the Newark Star-Ledger had the story on page 3 on Sat. Anyway, now several DJs in NJ are banning sinead. WHTG's morning man, Bart Cross-Tierny, is asking all his listeners to send thier sinead CDs, LPs, button's etc. back to Chrylis Records and gives the address. The Concert review in monday's Star Ledger mentioned the incident but basically ignored it. The review blasted the audience for being noisy during quiet passages and said Sinead should be mad at the audience. I was there, it was noisy, but I think part of the problem was Sinead sang 'I do not want...' acapella as an encore. After several danceable songs, I think this might of been a poor choice as an encore. Anyway, I'm siding with the DJs. I don't think Sinead should consider herself GOD (only kate is). Too bad I didn't know about the national athem before the encore. It might of be tempting to sing it. Oh, and by the way, a group called The Beautiful opened. They were absolutely horrible. They were Boys with Guitars -- with the execption that their guitar playing was barely average. They tried to cover it up by being loud. And they had horrible stage presence. Later c.swanson cjs@hotlf.att.com
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/27/90)
Really-From: gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) In article <9008271427.AA22690@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> c.swanson writes: > >On Friday, at the Garden State Arts Center, she refused to play if the >center played the National Anthem -- something they always do before a >concert. > >Noone realized what happened until Sat. I was at the concert and >didn't realize the anthem wasn't played. Well, someone finally found a distraction from the Iraq Crisis and the impending Recession ... Frankly, I've never attended a concert where the US (or Canadian) national anthem was played, neither Pink Floyd at Nassau, Bowie at Stade Olympique (Montreal), club shows at The Ritz nor The Bottom Line, nor recent operas or symphonies. Did Sinead give a reason? Many people oppose the exhibition of overt nationalism, and certainly if you were a performing artist giving *your* show ... well? >Anyway, now several DJs in NJ are banning sinead. Quite possibly Sinead did not realize that the hordes would start a jihad in the name of their political religion. How many venues in the US play the national anthem before a rock show (or anything else?). At least I wouldn't have expected it in our area (I'm in Manhattan) or back in Canada (where we do play ours before hockey). gld PS: As far as I know, they didn't play "Star Spangled Banner" or "America the Beautiful" at the last NY Philharmonic concert in Central Park nor at the NY City Opera's "Lucia di Lammermoor". -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary L. Dare No golf courses on > gld@cunixD.cc.columbia.EDU Mohawk Indian > gld@cunixc.BITNET burial grounds! (Oka, Quebec)
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/28/90)
Really-From: lee@quincy.cs.umass.edu (Peter Lee) From: Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Date: 27 Aug 90 12:54:00 GMT Reply-To: Love-Hounds@gaffa.MIT.EDU Organization: The Internet Really-From: cjs@hotlf.att.com Well, Sinead O'Connor has raised the ire of lots of people in NJ. On Friday, at the Garden State Arts Center, she refused to play if the center played the National Anthem -- something they always do before a concert. They backstage people finally agreed because they were afraid they 9000 poeple in the audience would revolt if they cancelled the show. as an encore. ... Anyway, I'm siding with the DJs. I don't think Sinead should consider herself GOD (only kate is). Too bad I didn't know about the national athem before the encore. It might of be tempting to sing it. ... Later c.swanson cjs@hotlf.att.com Ms. O'Connor is not American (she's Irish) -- why should she want a foriegn country's national anthem played before her concert? I suppose the other alternative would have been to play her national anthem afterwards, but what if some of the band members were from other countries, etc...
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/28/90)
Really-From: greg@Viewlogic.COM (Gregory Larkin) In article <9008271757.AA07992@quincy.cs.umass.edu> you write: |> |> Ms. O'Connor is not American (she's Irish) -- why should she want a foriegn |> country's national anthem played before her concert? I suppose the other |> alternative would have been to play her national anthem afterwards, but what |> if some of the band members were from other countries, etc... Of course I am biased since I am American, but I think that if you are in a foreign country, it is always best to observe and respect local custom. I enjoy Sinead's music and recently saw her concert (which was very good) and I always thought she was a humble person, so I must admit I was a little surprised at this apparent ego trip. Sinead is quickly rising through the ranks, but I think she should take a step back and reassess her self-importance. -- Greg Larkin (ASIC Engineer) Viewlogic Systems, Inc. (The CAE Company) 293 Boston Post Road West ------------------------------------- Marlboro, MA 01752 |"We've got captains not courageous,| 508 480 0881 x321 |captains turned to madness..." | E-mail: greg@Viewlogic.COM |Peter Garrett, Midnight Oil | -------------------------------------
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/28/90)
Really-From: Lazlo Nibble <lazlo@hydra.unm.edu> Greg Larkin writes: > Of course I am biased since I am American, but I think that if > you are in a foreign country, it is always best to observe and > respect local custom. I enjoy Sinead's music and recently saw > her concert (which was very good) and I always thought she was > a humble person, so I must admit I was a little surprised at > this apparent ego trip. Excuse me? What local custom? What ego trip? I've never been to a single concert where the National Anthem was played beforehand -- it may be a custom at baseball games or Willie Nelson's Fourth Of July Picnic, but it sure isn't a custom at rock concerts in this part of the country. (Maybe New Jersey is different.) Sinead is perfectly within her rights to refuse to have her concert prepended with "The Star Spangled Banner", just as you're within your rights to boycott or unburden yourself of her music if she does so. But, quite frankly, I think that the people who are protesting her "ego trip" (some ego trip -- God forbid that an artist exercise any control over the presentation of her work) are being jingoistic, idolatrous fools. There are a lot of knee-jerk patriots floating around this country lately. Are these folks going to demand American flags on both sides of the stage at concerts next? Pledges of Allegiance by the band before every show? Red-white-and-blue fireworks shows after every encore? Are people just considered worthless scum in this country nowadays unless they spend more time cowtowing to the symbols of "America" than they do protecting and utilizing the rights and freedoms those symbols allegedly represent? Pa-thet-ic. Lazlo (lazlo@hydra.unm.edu) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "We bailed early. Something came down. Somebody died."
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/28/90)
Really-From: woiccare@pebbles.sct.clarkson.edu c.swanson sez: > Anyway, I'm siding with the DJs. I don't think Sinead should > consider herself GOD (only kate is). Too bad I didn't > know about the national athem before > the encore. It might of be tempting to sing it. i almost went, but didn't have the time....i read about the incident in the ledger too (i'm in morristown theseadays) and found it quite odd that the anthem would be played before such an event - no show i've ever been to began the festivities with such an introduction. personally, i think this move shows courage on her part...and to be honest with you, i think i'd have to side with her... woj
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/28/90)
Really-From: Steve Wallis <stevew@mushroom.computer-science.manchester.ac.uk> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes: >Did Sinead give a reason? Many people oppose the exhibition of overt >nationalism, and certainly if you were a performing artist giving >*your* show ... well? Absolutely. I'm sure Sinead objected on principle, and she had every right to do so. Having a national anthem played conveys a political message (of support for American nationalism), a message with which Sinead obviously does not agree. I don't know whether Sinead sings any particularly political songs, but imagine if KT (if she toured again...) sang songs such as _Army_Dreamers_ and _Breathing_ - KT would certainly also refuse to be associated with an anthem which would convey opposing sentiments and trivialise her views. >>Anyway, now several DJs in NJ are banning sinead. > >Quite possibly Sinead did not realize that the hordes would start >a jihad in the name of their political religion. If she realised that the hordes would start such a jihad, she would be even more determined to stick up for her principles. Of course, several DJs are hardly "hordes" and don't represent the American public (although after reading this discussion, I'm not so sure...) >How many venues >in the US play the national anthem before a rock show (or anything >else?). At least I wouldn't have expected it in our area (I'm in >Manhattan) or back in Canada (where we do play ours before hockey). National anthems do not get played at rock shows in Britain (indeed, there would probably be an outcry if one *was* played). Theatres, however, are a different kettle of fish - they are quite commonplace at plays and musicals. Steve. / / / \ / / -------------Steve Wallis------------- \/\ /\ \/ \ / \\/ / | JANET: stevew@uk.ac.man.cs.r5 | / \ \/ \/ \\//\ / | Internet: stevew@r5.cs.man.ac.uk | \/ \/ | UUCP: ..mcvax!ukc!man.cs.r5!stevew |
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/28/90)
Really-From: greg@Viewlogic.COM (Gregory Larkin) In article <9008280119.AA16116@hydra.unm.edu> you write: |> Really-From: Lazlo Nibble <lazlo@hydra.unm.edu> |> |> Excuse me? What local custom? What ego trip? The local custom of playing the national anthem before any event at the arena in question. |> |> I've never been to a single concert where the National Anthem was played |> beforehand -- it may be a custom at baseball games or Willie Nelson's |> Fourth Of July Picnic, but it sure isn't a custom at rock concerts in |> this part of the country. (Maybe New Jersey is different.) So why does a rock concert have to be any different than any other type of gathering? Does a rock performer automatically get the right to change things as they see fit? Maybe Sinead has more to say than, say, a Japanese baseball team, but if either one of them comes to our country, wouldn't it simply be courtesy on either of their parts to respect the wishes of their hosts? This country has a sad history of bigotry against almost every nationality on Earth, and incidents such as these will continue it. |> |> Sinead is perfectly within her rights to refuse to have her concert |> prepended with "The Star Spangled Banner", just as you're within your |> rights to boycott or unburden yourself of her music if she does so. |> But, quite frankly, I think that the people who are protesting her "ego |> trip" (some ego trip -- God forbid that an artist exercise any control |> over the presentation of her work) are being jingoistic, idolatrous |> fools. The funniest thing about this is that if an American performer were to travel to Europe and do the same thing, the performer would probably be criticized as another "ugly American" by the Europeans, and with good reason. After traveling to Europe recently, I can tell you from experience that there are many "ugly Americans" over there and we should be doing as much as we can to foster respect between all countries. I am not as outraged as you might portray me to be, Lazlo; I just think that Sinead should, as an international personality, strive to promote respect among people. Highly visible people should always be conscious of their actions. Lazlo, you don't sound like the kind of person who forms stereotypical opinions, but I'm certain that someone less educated than yourself could look at this incident and form some incorrect opinions and make sweeping generalizations about other rock performers, or the Irish people, or whatever. |> |> There are a lot of knee-jerk patriots floating around this country |> lately. Are these folks going to demand American flags on both sides |> of the stage at concerts next? Pledges of Allegiance by the band |> before every show? Red-white-and-blue fireworks shows after every |> encore? Are people just considered worthless scum in this country |> nowadays unless they spend more time cowtowing to the symbols of |> "America" than they do protecting and utilizing the rights and freedoms |> those symbols allegedly represent? I think you are getting a little out of hand in your condemnation of anyone who disagrees with Sinead in this matter. Obviously, flags and the Pledge of Allegiance are not commonplace in most concert venues in the United States, but certainly it would not harm you or any performer if they were. Anyone who objected to displays of your so-called "knee-jerk" patriotism could simply wait and enter the concert after the two minute offense to their individualism. I didn't say that I would like for all concert halls to be tributes to the American fight for independence, I just said that if a particular area has a custom, then it should not be disturbed. -- Greg Larkin (ASIC Engineer) Viewlogic Systems, Inc. (The CAE Company) 293 Boston Post Road West ------------------------------------- Marlboro, MA 01752 |"We've got captains not courageous,| 508 480 0881 x321 |captains tumbling into madness..." | E-mail: greg@Viewlogic.COM |Peter Garrett, Midnight Oil | -------------------------------------
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/29/90)
Really-From: gb10@gte.com (Gregory Bossert) I probably know better than to jump in to this debate, but since no one has asked me... Greg Larkin says (in reply to Lazlo Nibble) > ... I didn't > say that I would like for all concert halls to be > tributes to the American fight for independence, I > just said that if a particular area has a custom, > then it should not be disturbed. IMHO, one of the most important aspects of modern popular music is that it _does_ disturb customs, be they local, national, or global. Greg quotes Midnight Oil in his signature: a good example of a group that deliberately attempts to disturb its audience into paying attention to political and environmental issues. Her KaTeness has built a career on upsetting peoples ideas of pop music -- novices reactions to my playing, say, _Get Out of My House_ tend to be shock, horror and even revulsion (until they achieve enlightment, that is, and I untie them). Anyone who thinks KT's music doesn't have political significance turn on the radio and listen to the type of music women are _supposed_ to make. If Sinead has started some arguments in New Jersey, and maybe made some people think, then she has helped to keep popular music an important part of our (I mean the world's) culture. I am also reminded that the melody of the Star Spangled Banner came from a popular song circa 1812, and frankly, the a cappella folk songs Sinead is singing this tour ar far more moving. Though given the number of goofball fans standing on their seats at Sinead's Great Woods concert, "O say can you see" is a very appropriate sentiment... 8-] Vickie, good to hear that you are back on the air. Just wish I could pick up a broadcast here in Boston... Also, thanks to those who recommended Hetch Hetchy -- I got _Swollen_, Bossanova (Pixies), and Graffiti Bridge (his purpleness) yesterday, and listened to them here at work today. !! ( NOTE: Bossanova is maybe not quite as good as Doolittle, but definately recommended, and Graffiti Bridge is great, but then I'm a sucker for Prince.) PLEASE, y'all, keep recommending musicians and albums; seems like I've bought everything by my favorite artists, and I live on new music... (OK, OK, I'm sending off for Happy's tapes!) Footah! <- Note this is a cheerful exclaimation (from the Love and Rockets comic book), _not_ a name. -greg (ah, now there's a name...) -- gb10@gte.com -- "Share and Enjoy!"
kaufman@delta.eecs.nwu.edu (Michael L. Kaufman) (08/29/90)
In article <9008281443.AA00895@mobius> Love-Hounds@gaffa.MIT.EDU writes: Really-From: greg@Viewlogic.COM (Gregory Larkin) >This country has a sad history of bigotry against almost every nationality on >Earth, and incidents such as these will continue it. I have to agree with Greg. People getting bent out of shape, just because an peoson does not want to have another countries national anthem played, is a kind of bigotry we can all do without. Michael
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/29/90)
Really-From: Steve Wallis <stevew@mushroom.computer-science.manchester.ac.uk> greg@Viewlogic.COM (Gregory Larkin) writes: > >In article <9008280119.AA16116@hydra.unm.edu> you write: >|> Really-From: Lazlo Nibble <lazlo@hydra.unm.edu> >|> >|> Excuse me? What local custom? What ego trip? > > The local custom of playing the national > anthem before any event at the arena in > question. Hmm, the "custom" of the owners of the arena in question to force the artists and customers to endure a bit of knee-jerk patriotism. > This country has a sad history of bigotry against > almost every nationality on Earth, and incidents such as these > will continue it. The chief cause of bigotry is patriotism. The difference between fervent admiration of your own country and bigotry against others is slight. Hence, the Star Spangled Banner is a major cause of such bigotry. > The funniest thing about this is that if an > American performer were to travel to Europe and do the same > thing, the performer would probably be criticized as > another "ugly American" by the Europeans, and with good > reason. If Bruce Springsteen came to Britain, and the owners of a venue tried to ensure the British national anthem was played, he would rightly object - and would receive much support from his fans (especially those who know the lyrics of "Born in the U.S.A.") > I didn't > say that I would like for all concert halls to be > tributes to the American fight for independence, I > just said that if a particular area has a custom, > then it should not be disturbed. Oh, the U.S.A. is still fighting for independence, is it? It seems to me that other countries are fighting for independence from the U.S. >Greg Larkin (ASIC Engineer) >Viewlogic Systems, Inc. (The CAE Company) >293 Boston Post Road West ------------------------------------- >Marlboro, MA 01752 |"We've got captains not courageous,| >508 480 0881 x321 |captains tumbling into madness..." | >E-mail: greg@Viewlogic.COM |Peter Garrett, Midnight Oil | Interesting that you've got a quote from the lead singer of Midnight Oil in your signature. You may know that Midnight Oil strongly support the plight of the aborigines in Australia, and would equally have supported the plight of the Indians in the U.S. against the patriotic whites. If they played at the arena in question, I'm sure they would make the same protest as Sinead. You can now boycott Midnight Oil's records if you like. Personally, I would boycott the DJs and radio stations who are censoring Sinead, if I lived in the U.S. Steve. -- / / / \ / / -------------Steve Wallis------------- \/\ /\ \/ \ / \\/ / | JANET: stevew@uk.ac.man.cs.r5 | / \ \/ \/ \\//\ / | Internet: stevew@r5.cs.man.ac.uk | \/ \/ | UUCP: ..mcvax!ukc!man.cs.r5!stevew |
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/29/90)
Really-From: Michael Simms <michaels@hci.heriot-watt.ac.uk> Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: barr roseanne? No, Skin sinead Summary: Expires: References: <9008271427.AA22690@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Sender: Reply-To: michaels@hci.hw.ac.uk (Michael Simms) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Scottish HCI Centre, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh Keywords: In article <9008271427.AA22690@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Love-Hounds@gaffa.MIT.EDU writes: >Really-From: cjs@hotlf.att.com > >Well, Sinead O'Connor has raised the ire of >lots of people in NJ. Why? > >On Friday, at the Garden State Arts Center, she >refused to play if the center played the National >Anthem -- something they always do before a concert. >They backstage people finally agreed because they >were afraid they 9000 poeple in the audience would >revolt if they cancelled the show. > What has the American National Anthem got to do with a concert by an Irish musician? >Noone realized what happened until Sat. I was at the concert and >didn't realize the anthem wasn't played. My friend wondered about it, >but figured they forgot to play it. I found out about it because >the Newark Star-Ledger had the story on page 3 on Sat. > >Anyway, now several DJs in NJ are banning sinead. >WHTG's morning man, Bart Cross-Tierny, is asking all his >listeners to send thier sinead CDs, LPs, button's etc. >back to Chrylis Records and gives the address. > Is this stupid or what ? Have all Americans been brainwashed into believing that not to play the national anthem before a concert or anything is an "insult", and if so why? Surely playing the anthem before an Irish singers concert might make people think she was American not Irish. >The Concert review in monday's Star Ledger >mentioned the incident but basically >ignored it. The review blasted the audience for being noisy >during quiet passages and said Sinead should be mad at the audience. >I was there, it was noisy, but I think part of the problem was >Sinead sang 'I do not want...' acapella as an encore. After >several danceable songs, I think this might of been a poor choice >as an encore. > >Anyway, I'm siding with the DJs. I don't think Sinead should >consider herself GOD (only kate is). Too bad I didn't >know about the national athem before >the encore. It might of be tempting to sing it. Personally if I go to see a concert I want to hear the concert and not to be subjected to a jingoistic rendition of a national anthem. > >Oh, and by the way, a group called The Beautiful opened. They >were absolutely horrible. They were Boys with Guitars -- with the >execption that their guitar playing was barely average. They tried >to cover it up by being loud. And they had horrible stage presence. > > >Later >c.swanson >cjs@hotlf.att.com This is not intended as a personal Flame, but is just an expression of my amazement at why Intelligent Americans (must be to think KT is GOD :-) think (are brainwashed into thinking ?) that the Stars and Stripes is sacred, whether in song or as the flag. MikeNewsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: barr roseanne? No, Skin sinead Summary: Expires: References: <9008271427.AA22690@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Sender: Reply-To: michaels@hci.hw.ac.uk (Michael Simms) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Scottish HCI Centre, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh Keywords: Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: barr roseanne? No, Skin sinead Summary: Expires: References: <9008271427.AA22690@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Sender: Reply-To: michaels@hci.hw.ac.uk (Michael Simms) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Scottish HCI Centre, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh Keywords: Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: barr roseanne? No, Skin sinead Summary: Expires: References: <9008271427.AA22690@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Sender: Reply-To: michaels@hci.hw.ac.uk (Michael Simms) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Scottish HCI Centre, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh Keywords: In article <9008271427.AA22690@EDDIE.MIT.EDU> Love-Hounds@gaffa.MIT.EDU writes: >Really-From: cjs@hotlf.att.com > >Well, Sinead O'Connor has raised the ire of >lots of people in NJ. Why? > >On Friday, at the Garden State Arts Center, she >refused to play if the center played the National >Anthem -- something they always do before a concert. >They backstage people finally agreed because they >were afraid they 9000 poeple in the audience would >revolt if they cancelled the show. > What has the American National Anthem got to do with a concert by an Irish musician? >Noone realized what happened until Sat. I was at the concert and >didn't realize the anthem wasn't played. My friend wondered about it, >but figured they forgot to play it. I found out about it because >the Newark Star-Ledger had the story on page 3 on Sat. > >Anyway, now several DJs in NJ are banning sinead. >WHTG's morning man, Bart Cross-Tierny, is asking all his >listeners to send thier sinead CDs, LPs, button's etc. >back to Chrylis Records and gives the address. > Is this stupid or what ? Have all Americans been brainwashed into believing that not to play the national anthem before a concert or anything is an "insult", and if so why? Surely playing the anthem before an Irish singers concert might make people think she was American not Irish. >The Concert review in monday's Star Ledger >mentioned the incident but basically >ignored it. The review blasted the audience for being noisy >during quiet passages and said Sinead should be mad at the audience. >I was there, it was noisy, but I think part of the problem was >Sinead sang 'I do not want...' acapella as an encore. After >several danceable songs, I think this might of been a poor choice >as an encore. > >Anyway, I'm siding with the DJs. I don't think Sinead should >consider herself GOD (only kate is). Too bad I didn't >know about the national athem before >the encore. It might of be tempting to sing it. Personally if I go to see a concert I want to hear the concert and not to be subjected to a jingoistic rendition of a national anthem. > >Oh, and by the way, a group called The Beautiful opened. They >were absolutely horrible. They were Boys with Guitars -- with the >execption that their guitar playing was barely average. They tried >to cover it up by being loud. And they had horrible stage presence. > > >Later >c.swanson >cjs@hotlf.att.com This is not intended as a personal Flame, but is just an expression of my amazement at why Intelligent Americans (must be to think KT is GOD :-) think (are brainwashed into thinking ?) that the Stars and Stripes is sacred, whether in song or as the flag. Mike
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/30/90)
Really-From: ptsfa!pacbell!tjb@ns.PacBell.COM well actually i think that the reason some of us percieve sinead's action as an ego trip is that i doubt she would've made a fuss about any other national anthem than america's. you say a lot about the freedoms that we have in america, and i agree with you that we are really lucky to have them-- so when someone like sinead starts criticizing our country you have to wonder what she is proposing as an alternative. yes there are a lot of knee-jerk conservatives in this country who are into flag waving, but there are also a LOT of knee-jerk liberals here who are into flag BURNING, simply because it's "politically correct" <-- (sarcasm intended). i consider myself to belong to neither group. yes sinead has the right to criticize our country. but i don't have to like it and frankly i agree with every poster who's called her a self-righteous *****. ******************************************************************************** tjb tjb@PacBell.COM Deadhead. Fencer. Geek. pacbell!tjb ********************************************************************************
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/30/90)
Really-From: E Welsh <ecwu59@castle.ed.ac.uk> In article <9008281443.AA00895@mobius> Gregory Larkin writes: > their hosts? This country has a sad history of bigotry against > almost every nationality on Earth, and incidents such as these > will continue it. | |\/| |_| /-\ . | | | | | \_/ . The above bigotry can largely be blamed on this big extreme patriotism thing. Incidents such as these are a protest against it. If this is a bit strong then I don't think many people could argue that the KKK and the National Front over here hide behind flags. Surely promoting one's own country so fervently only insults and excludes all other countries. National anthems are fine for Athletic meets and such but keep 'em there. > After traveling to Europe recently, I can tell you from > experience that there are many "ugly Americans" over there > and we should be doing as much as we can to foster respect > between all countries. I am not as outraged as you might Exactly. By the way has anyone seen any articles on KaTe recently? The Sinead mailing list is very quiet by comparison. -- / __ /\ ecwu59@castle.ed.ac.uk /\ "Well I'm surprised \ \ |_ \ / \/ rew@lfcs.ed.ac.uk \/that you're surprised / / |__VAN \/\/ELSH /\ evan@tardis.cs.ed.ac.uk/\ that I'm surprised!" \ \ ================ \/ ecwu86@ercvax.ed.ac.uk \/ Kate Bush. /
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/30/90)
Really-From: gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) In article <736@glenlivet.hci.hw.ac.uk> Michael Simms writes: > >This is not intended as a personal Flame, but is just an >expression of my amazement at why Intelligent Americans (must >be to think KT is GOD :-) think (are brainwashed into thinking ?) >that the Stars and Stripes is sacred, whether in song or as the flag. Actually, it's not the intelligent ones ... one must realize that the Americans have a national political religion that makes them different from almost every other society on Earth. Unlike many dictators who fabricate a cult of personality (e.g., Saddam Hussein being the most recent example), this thing has a life of its own and manifests itself in as many different ways as there are people down here (I say "down here" 'cos I'm Canadian; even coming from a majority white, English- speaking North American society, this was a striking difference when I got to meet real Americans. As a purposeful outsider, it has a bit of a Twilight Zone-ish feel when it gets out of hand and noticeable). One should be careful not to let this blind our vision from all the good things in the States, though. It's only bad when certain people make jerks of themselves over it; Gaffa isn't one of those groups they hang around in, but Misc.headlines is full of those people. (And I do confess that I like to play "agent provocateur" over there once in a while to stir them up a little ... just a little! (-;) gld -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Gary L. Dare No golf courses on > gld@cunixD.cc.columbia.EDU Mohawk Indian > gld@cunixc.BITNET burial grounds! (Oka, Quebec)
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/30/90)
Really-From: krj@convex.cl.msu.edu (Ken Josenhans) In article <23093.9008281145@r5.cs.man.ac.uk> you write: >National anthems do not get played at rock shows in Britain (indeed, there >would probably be an outcry if one *was* played). Theatres, however, are a >different kettle of fish - they are quite commonplace at plays and musicals. I've been to at least one Gilbert and Sullivan performance (in the US) which opened with the audience rising for "God Save The Queen". -- --Ken Josenhans BITNET: 13020KRJ@MSU Internet: 13020KRJ@msu.edu UUCP: ...uunet!frith!krj or ...{rutgers, ames}!mailrus!frith!krj
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/30/90)
Really-From: Lazlo Nibble <lazlo@hydra.unm.edu> greg@Viewlogic.COM (Gregory Larkin) writes about: > The local custom of playing the national anthem before any event at the > arena in question. and after drawing a parallel between Sinead and, say, a visiting Japanese baseball team, asks: > ... wouldn't it simply be courtesy on either of their parts to respect > the wishes of their hosts? I think that in both cases you make the gross mistake of confusing "local customs" and "hosts" with "the wishes of a venue's management" and "the people who own the place Sinead is playing". I said before and I'll say again that as an artist, Sinead has the right to make any requests or demands about the presentation of her material that she cares to, and the people she's dealing with have just as much right to accede to or refuse those demands. In the case of Sinead's concert, it is apparent (to me at least, maybe not so much to you) that she thought that playing the National Anthem before her show would imply something that may not necessarily be true. It would *certainly* imply that she was willing to be associated with the "apple pie, stars and stripes" nationalism of this country, and it's a pretty safe bet that, in reality, she's willing to do no such thing. > I just said that if a particular area has a custom, then it should not > be disturbed. If Sinead were playing at a gig somewhere in Alabama, and she refused to play until any confederate flags in the arena (which symbolize slavery and oppression to a *lot* of people) were taken down, would you still feel the same way about the importance of "respecting the custom?" -- ptsfa!pacbell!tjb@ns.PacBell.COM (Deadhead. Fencer. Geek.) writes: > well actually i think that the reason some of us percieve sinead's action > as an ego trip is that i doubt she would've made a fuss about any other > national anthem than america's. I must have missed something. How does "making a fuss about the American National Anthem" translate so readily into "being an ego trip?" Lazlo (lazlo@hydra.unm.edu) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Though I live on the edge, time is on my side All the doors to my life / Are open wide Just as long as the wheels keep on turning 'round I will live for the groove / 'Til the sun goes down
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/31/90)
Really-From: wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu (Bill Wisner) >Really-From: ptsfa!pacbell!tjb@ns.PacBell.COM >well actually i think that the reason some of us percieve sinead's action >as an ego trip is that i doubt she would've made a fuss about any other >national anthem than america's. Pathetic argument. They wouldn't have *played* any other national anthem than America's. >so when someone like sinead starts criticizing our country you have to wonder >what she is proposing as an alternative. Yo! Wake up and smell the coffee! Sinead didn't criticize *anything*. She didn't say anything, good or bad, about America. She just didn't want our national anthem played before her concert. After all, she's not American and the Star Spangled Banner has nothing whatsoever to do with her music. For that matter, playing the national anthem before a rock concert is a pretty stupid idea anyway. Moron. Bill Wisner <wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu> Gryphon Gang Fairbanks AK 99775 "I burn a flag every night. Big ones, little ones..." -- Lee Peters, director of student housing at the University of Alaska Fairbanks
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (08/31/90)
Really-From: wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu (Bill Wisner) >Really-From: greg@Viewlogic.COM (Gregory Larkin) > This country has a sad history of bigotry against > almost every nationality on Earth, and incidents such as these > will continue it. Bigotry? You mean like forcing our own pathetically narrow-minded political views on everyone else? Bill Wisner <wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu> Gryphon Gang Fairbanks AK 99775 "If I repent of any thing, it is very likely to be my good behavior." -- Henry David Thoreau
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (09/01/90)
Really-From: stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu Argh, enough of this Sinead business. Since I buried this question at the bottom of my last posting: Can someone mail me the address (or post it here in Love-Hounds if you think that's a better idea) of the Jane Siberry mailing list? I really want to join now that I'm a recently converted Jane fan (don't worry, Kate, I'll get back to you) but I haven't seen the address since my conversion and I never thought to save it when I did see it last.
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (09/01/90)
Really-From: ptsfa!pacbell!tjb@PacBell.COM In article <1990Aug31.153212.3550@hayes.fai.alaska.edu> you write: >Really-From: wisner@hayes.fai.alaska.edu (Bill Wisner) > >>Really-From: ptsfa!pacbell!tjb@ns.PacBell.COM > >>well actually i think that the reason some of us percieve sinead's action >>as an ego trip is that i doubt she would've made a fuss about any other >>national anthem than america's. > >Pathetic argument. They wouldn't have *played* any other national >anthem than America's. > Pathetic rebuttal. I meant if sinead were in coutry X where X != USA she wouldn't have made any fuss. (ok well maybe if X == South Africa or something....) >>so when someone like sinead starts criticizing our country you have to wonder >>what she is proposing as an alternative. > >Yo! Wake up and smell the coffee! Sinead didn't criticize *anything*. I am awake, you apparently are drifting through some kind of dream. yes sinead didn't *overtly* criticize our country, but there are many many shades of meaning in her action to those of us who live here--it is, as another poster pointed out, the kind of snub that would get one of us labelled an "ugly american" were we to do it in another country. I find this double standard intolerable. >For that matter, playing the national anthem before a rock concert is >a pretty stupid idea anyway. This, i agree with. > >Moron. > Hmm, are you referring to yourself or am i to take this as an ad hominem attack? i suppose probably the latter, since you really haven't made any valid points here. Nice try but remember, "the universe does not give A's for effort--and neither do i". ******************************************************************************** tjb tjb@PacBell.COM Deadhead. Fencer. Geek. pacbell!tjb ******************************************************************************** "welcome to california. now go home."
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (09/04/90)
Really-From: James Smith <CCJS@cc.nu.oz.au> Path: cc.nu.oz.au!ccjs From: ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au (James Smith) Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa Subject: Re: barr roseanne? No, Skin sinead Message-ID: <374.26e39b8b@cc.nu.oz.au> Date: 4 Sep 90 12:18:17 +1000 References: <9008280119.AA16116@hydra.unm.edu> <9008291744.AA25991@ns.PacBell.COM> Organization: University of Newcastle News-Moderator: Approval required for posting to rec.music.gaffa Lines: 29 tjb writes: > well actually i think that the reason some of us percieve sinead's action > as an ego trip is that i doubt she would've made a fuss about any other > national anthem than america's. Sinead is a supporter of the IRA. As such, she probably views the events in Northern Ireland as a war against the English. Therefore, I assume that she would have objected most strongly to having the British national anthem played at her concerts. Perhaps she views America as supportive of the British, or, more likely, perhaps she has just decided that she does not want any anthem played at all. Certainly there is nothing in her action to suggest she is anti-American to the extent you suggest. As for the view that Sinead is anti-nationalism, how could any IRA supporter be other than pro-nationalism? The whole struggle in Northern Ireland is about having it declared independent of Britain. Jim P.S. I personally think the IRA are a pack of murderous bastards who should be taken out and shot, but that's just my opinion. It certainly doesn't stop me from enjoying her music. -- James Smith | Wherever the French girl with the green eyes Computing Centre | passes, nothing remains save wreckage and dead Newcastle University | bodies. ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au |
ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au (James Smith) (09/04/90)
tjb writes: > well actually i think that the reason some of us percieve sinead's action > as an ego trip is that i doubt she would've made a fuss about any other > national anthem than america's. Sinead is a supporter of the IRA. As such, she probably views the events in Northern Ireland as a war against the English. Therefore, I assume that she would have objected most strongly to having the British national anthem played at her concerts. Perhaps she views America as supportive of the British, or, more likely, perhaps she has just decided that she does not want any anthem played at all. Certainly there is nothing in her action to suggest she is anti-American to the extent you suggest. As for the view that Sinead is anti-nationalism, how could any IRA supporter be other than pro-nationalism? The whole struggle in Northern Ireland is about having it declared independent of Britain. Jim P.S. I personally think the IRA are a pack of murderous bastards who should be taken out and shot, but that's just my opinion. It certainly doesn't stop me from enjoying her music. -- James Smith | Wherever the French girl with the green eyes Computing Centre | passes, nothing remains save wreckage and dead Newcastle University | bodies. ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au |
Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (09/05/90)
Really-From: kaufman@eecs.nwu.edu In article <3C9771FF2DDFA00A50@cc.nu.oz.au> you write: >P.S. I personally think the IRA are a pack of murderous bastards who >should be taken out and shot, but that's just my opinion. It certainly >doesn't stop me from enjoying her music. This is sort of a broad statement, and it prompts me to ask you a few questions: 1) Do you think all members of the IRA should be shot, or only the ones involved in violent actions? Should they get trials, or is it ok just to gun them down in cold blood? 2) How do you feel about the UDA, the UDF, the UDR, the UFF, and the UFV? Or for that matter the DUP? Michael
ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au (James Smith) (09/12/90)
>>P.S. I personally think the IRA are a pack of murderous bastards who >>should be taken out and shot, but that's just my opinion. It certainly >>doesn't stop me from enjoying her music. > This is sort of a broad statement, and it prompts me to ask you a few > questions: > > 1) Do you think all members of the IRA should be shot, or only the ones > involved in violent actions? Should they get trials, or is it ok just to > gun them down in cold blood? I don't really think anyone should be shot. This was just my way of closing with a semihumourous disclaimer. I guess some people just can't understand subtlety. Mind you, the IRA seem to make a habit of gunning down people in cold blood. And they don't seem too keen on trials, or making sure they murder the right victims. I take it you don't approve of treating them as they treat others. If you want to continue this, please use email. Jim -- James Smith | Wherever the French girl with the green eyes Computing Centre | passes, nothing remains save wreckage and dead Newcastle University | bodies. ccjs@cc.nu.oz.au |