Love-Hounds-request@GAFFA.MIT.EDU (10/18/89)
Really-From: Julian.West@mac.dartmouth.edu Michael Mendelson <mendel@cs.uiuc.edu> writes: > I, and many to whom I am close, feel strongly that allusion to > Hitler in any light (e.g. his human side, attractiveness in the midst > of "devil," etc.), however fleeting and cautious, must simply be > avoided no matter the temptation. Michael, it's obvious you have put a lot of thought into this subject, so I'm probably not going to change your mind with a casual posting, but I represent another point of view. Hitler was not the devil incarnate. Even as an icon of Nazism, he did not represent _transcendent_ evil. He represented _human_ evil, not something which came from beyond ourselves. The _truly_ scary about Hitler is that he was a human being, and so were his lieutenants. _Heads_We're_Dancing_ underlines the fact, often forgotten, that Hitler was human and had a life before the Holocaust and even before he became fuehrer. Thereby it makes his later actions _more_ horrific. One phrase often used in this context is "the banality of evil." See, for instance, the recent film about _The_Wannsee_Conference_, which also portrays leading Nazis as human beings. All I have said is equally true if you view the Holocaust in a religious context. What is frightening is not that a deity, or a demon, could unleash horror on the earth. This belief is tempered by religious belief in a redemptive deity. What _is_ terrifying is that we ourselves hold the keys to this horror. A song which makes Hitler sound like you or me is _scary_. The real diminution of the Holocaust is to insist that Hitler was not like you and me, or that if _we_ were in 1930s Germany we would not have let it happen. Incidentally, that a reference is "fleeting and cautious" does not excuse it. Rather the reverse. References to an important subject should at least meet the subject square on. (Kate does, I think.) I'm glad you enjoy the album. Congratulations on being the only (?) person to have begun absorbing it and to post thoughtful comments the day after its release. I was expecting an e-deluge now that TSW is on the stands. ----------------------------- Julian --------
LRECKO@WISCSSC.BITNET (05/22/91)
Hi -- I've been a reader of love-hounds for at least 3 years now. I've only posted once, preferring to remain on the side lines. But when I saw the discussion of Hitler, I had to jump in. Kate said: > [Kate:] Yes, who else is there, really? But I would really hate anyone to > be offended by the song. It's not meant to be a glorification of > that whole event. It's just meant to be an exploration of the idea > that evil quite often appears in a charming guise, and we should > all be careful. He fooled so many people, and I don't think you > can blame them for being fooled. And |>oug replied: >I get really annoyed everytime I see Kate saying this! Of course you >can blame the people he "fooled". You can and should blame every >single one of the bastards that let Hitler act out his awful scheme! >Hitler wasn't to blame; he was insane. You can't blame someone for >being insane. It was all of the sane people who turned their eyes >away and quietly let it all happen who are to blame. Those and the >greedy people who saw a chance to better their lives at the expense of >others. There is _absolutely_ no excuse or justification for what Hitler did to his own people and to _many_ other races. But I think it's a little simplistic to believe that the people who surrounded Hitler all necessarily agreed with what he was doing. Often, it was either the "kill or be killed" mentality. I am _not_ supportive in any way of the many soldiers in his "army" but what would you do if someone had a gun to your head and promised to pull the trigger if you didn't follow orders? I honestly don't know what I'd do; I'd like to think I'd willingly submit to death but it's such an outrageous situation to imagine. No doubt he was insane. But this doesn't excuse his crimes and genocide. No doubt others profited off the DESTRUCTION of other human beings. They too should be made to pay. We think another Hitler will never come again. What about Saddam Hussein? Isn't it frightening to think he used to be our ally?! Just me $.02 worth. Laura
dkletter@.UUCP (SUGAR in their vitamins?) (05/22/91)
er Hitler may have been insane, but he was a cunning, crafty and extremely BRILLIANT psychopath. having lost family to this man, i think i understand what |>oug has said, but i also think this is not really the place to discuss the intricicies of who is to blame for such an attrocity exhibition. -- Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
jondr@sco.COM (Jon Drukman) (05/29/91)
No one yet knows why LRECKO@WISCSSC.BITNET said: >the many soldiers in his "army" but what would you do if someone had a >gun to your head and promised to pull the trigger if you didn't follow >orders? I honestly don't know what I'd do; I'd like to think I'd >willingly submit to death but it's such an outrageous situation to imagine. In the end, you've got to be prepared to die for what you believe in. It's the only freedom you have. >What about Saddam Hussein? Isn't it frightening to think he used to be >our ally?! We turned him into the monster, then launched a massive PR blitz to convince everyone he was really Satan Incarnate. Then we spent a zillion dollars to turn Iraq into a giant pothole. I actually have a little sympathy for poor Hussein. He thought he knew how to play hardball with the big boys and found out real fast that the suits in DC are among the most vicious men who ever lived. End of sobering political post. -- Jon Drukman (imploded dub mix) uunet!sco!jondr jondr@sco.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.