scott@psy.uwa.OZ.AU (Scott Fisher) (06/24/91)
Did the CD users of Kates music notice that the Signal to Noise (SNR) ratio on the "Sensual World" CD got worse in comparison to "Hounds of Love". In other words, there seems to be more hiss on Sensual World vs Hounds of love. Anyone know if/how the production/technical/mastering side of these CDs differ? Thanks in advance Scott. Scott Fisher [scott@wapsy.uwa.oz.au]
nrc@cbema.att.COM (Neal R Caldwell, Ii) (06/25/91)
>From article <1991Jun24.083232.13287@uniwa.uwa.oz>, by scott@psy.uwa.OZ.AU (Scott Fisher): > Did the CD users of Kates music notice that the Signal to Noise (SNR) ratio > on the "Sensual World" CD got worse in comparison to "Hounds of Love". Not just hiss, either, all sorts of audio rubbish. I think many Love-Hounds recognize this short coming of _The Sensual World_ although maybe not most. > Anyone know if/how the production/technical/mastering side of these CDs > differ? The most likely culprit (as far as I can discern) for the noise on _The Sensual World_ is the engineering. For the first time ever Del Palmer handled almost all of the engineering work. While some have praised Del for the sounds he has captured it is as much an engineer's task to keep out the undesirable noise as it is to capture the desirable. Some have suggested that the mix might be at fault since it seems a bit muddy. The mixing was handled by Kevin Killen who did excellent work on Peter Gabriel's _So_ among others. If Killen contributed anything to the sound problems on _The Sensual World_ it was a slightly muddy mix, not background noise. In fact, this muddy mix might have been an attempt to mask some of the noise. _Walk Straight Down the Middle_ was mixed by Del Palmer and has a much crisper sound but still even more tape hiss and noise. I haven't heard anything about the engineering for KBV7 but I imagine that it will once again be Del Palmer. Hopefully the problems of _The Sensual World_ will have been recognized and used as a learning experience. "Let's start with the sound: Magical! No matter how good your system, this record will turn it into a glazed donut." "The Absolute Sound" on _The Sensual World_ "Don't drive too slowly." Richard Caldwell AT&T Network Systems att!cbnews!nrc nrc@cbnews.att.com
jondr@sco.COM (Jon Drukman) (06/26/91)
No one yet knows why scott@psy.uwa.OZ.AU (Scott Fisher) said: >Did the CD users of Kates music notice that the Signal to Noise (SNR) ratio >on the "Sensual World" CD got worse in comparison to "Hounds of Love". >In other words, there seems to be more hiss on Sensual World vs Hounds of love. >Anyone know if/how the production/technical/mastering side of these CDs differ? Yeah, I noticed this and got flamed for it ages ago. In fact, when I got The Box Set, I noticed the hiss was even more obnoxious on the British pressing of TSW. I sat myself down right between my speakers and cranked The Fog. It sounded decent enough until Kate's voice came in, accompanied by a horrible "tearing" sound (as the noise gate cut out) and a WALL of hiss. It's all over a LOT of the vocals on TSW. Compare and contrast with The Dreaming which was recorded in various commercial studios. When her voice comes in on "Sat In Your Lap" it is totally transparent. I didn't check very closely on Hounds Of Love, but I did check Never For Ever and even The Kick Inside. They were both far more transparent than TSW. Richard Caldwell and myself have been quick to point the finger at Del Palmer, who engineered TSW. It might not be his fault entirely, but he's the only scapegoat we could find in the liner notes. Kudos to Larry DeLuca for saying, "TSW doesn't have a noise floor. It has a noise wainscoting." -- Jon Drukman (space children intro mix) uunet!sco!jondr jondr@sco.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.
brownfld@ux1.cso.uiuc.EDU (Kenneth R Brownfield) (06/26/91)
scott@psy.uwa.OZ.AU (Scott Fisher) writes: >Did the CD users of Kates music notice that the Signal to Noise (SNR) ratio >on the "Sensual World" CD got worse in comparison to "Hounds of Love". >In other words, there seems to be more hiss on Sensual World vs Hounds of love. >Anyone know if/how the production/technical/mastering side of these CDs differ? There was a discussion along the lines of "Del Palmer had a larger part in this album." I listened to the CD with _good_ headphones, and the songs that were engineered by Del seemed to a bit better, if different at all. Also, Straight Down The Middle, which was engineered _and_ recorded by Del seemed to be among the better sounding, both EQ and S/N wise. Whoever recorded or mixed Rocket's Tail and turned the drums into mush should be shot. It almost sounds compressed. The problem I think with TSW is that there was an incredible amount of mixing and dubbing as compared to Love Hounds (compare The Ninth Wave songs to The Sensual World, the song, and you can imagine the mixing differences.) She _is_ mixing in analogue, so tape hiss (even 24-track, or whatever she uses) adds up, as well as any other flutter, etc. This is more of an educated guess, so no flames, please. If she went ADD, I think the problem would go away. Suzanne Vega is similar. Her newest album has a lot more mixing and dubbing than her last, and especially her first, but it's ADD, and it sounds better to me than any of her AAD recordings (assuming the same mixers/engineers, I haven't looked.) DDD would be nice, but Kate is pretty dedicated to analogue. >Thanks in advance Scott. >Scott Fisher [scott@wapsy.uwa.oz.au] You're welcome in advance! -- Ken. Kenneth R. Brownfield brownfld@uiuc.edu Computing Services Office uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!brownfld University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. (finger for more info.)
brownfld@ux1.cso.uiuc.EDU (Kenneth R Brownfield) (06/26/91)
nrc@cbema.att.COM (Neal R Caldwell, Ii) writes: >Some have suggested that the mix might be at fault since it seems a >bit muddy. The mixing was handled by Kevin Killen who did excellent >work on Peter Gabriel's _So_ among others. If Killen contributed _So_ on CD, to be a bit exaggerative and blunt, has a deflating tire as BV's on all the tracks. Mercy Street would be devine if it weren't for *hiss*. The mixing sounds excellent, but the hiss detracts from the music a great deal for me. It's one of the most hissful (gawd) CD I have next to Pink Floyd's _Wish You Were Here_. >anything to the sound problems on _The Sensual World_ it was a slightly >muddy mix, not background noise. In fact, this muddy mix might have >been an attempt to mask some of the noise. _Walk Straight Down the >Middle_ was mixed by Del Palmer and has a much crisper sound but still >even more tape hiss and noise. Hiss was the _least_ for WSDTM on the CD I have. You could be right about the mud to counter the hiss. I'd prefer hiss if I had the choice, tho. I'd assume that Del didn't change his engineering strategy just for WSDTM. >"Don't drive too slowly." Richard Caldwell > AT&T Network Systems > att!cbnews!nrc > nrc@cbnews.att.com -- Ken. Kenneth R. Brownfield brownfld@uiuc.edu Computing Services Office uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!brownfld University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. (finger for more info.)
scott@cs.heriot-watt.ac.UK (Scott Telford) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.165422.1644@cbnews.cb.att.com> nrc@cbema.att.COM (Neal R Caldwell, Ii) writes: >I haven't heard anything about the engineering for KBV7 but I imagine >that it will once again be Del Palmer. Hopefully the problems of _The >Sensual World_ will have been recognized and used as a learning >experience. I hope so. I also hope they've invested in some digital kit too. The latest T'pau CD ("The Promise") is DDD and the difference is amazing. Just think how much better "This Woman's Work" would have been without the deafening roar (slight exageration here 8^) in the background... _____________________________________________________________________________ | Scott Telford, Dept of Computer Science, scott@cs.hw.ac.uk | | Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh, UK. scott%hwcs@ukc.uucp | |_____ "Expect the unexpected." (The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy) ______|
jondr@sco.COM (Jon Drukman) (06/27/91)
No one yet knows why brownfld@ux1.cso.uiuc.EDU (Kenneth R Brownfield) said: >this album." I listened to the CD with _good_ headphones, and the songs that >were engineered by Del seemed to a bit better, if different at all. Also, >Straight Down The Middle, which was engineered _and_ recorded by Del seemed to >be among the better sounding, both EQ and S/N wise. I briefly entertained the notion that the problem was in the mastering stage, but that doesn't account for the incredibly obvious "tearing" and hiss that accompany the entrace of practically every vocal part on the album. Do you have the US or UK disc? > Whoever recorded or mixed Rocket's Tail and turned the drums into mush >should be shot. It almost sounds compressed. This is a fairly meaningless comment. Compression is used on practically everything to some degree. Without it, you get that great amateurish recorded in a basement feel as all the levels go zooming around. > The problem I think with TSW is that there was an incredible amount of >mixing and dubbing as compared to Love Hounds (compare The Ninth Wave songs to >The Sensual World, the song, and you can imagine the mixing differences.) She >_is_ mixing in analogue, so tape hiss (even 24-track, or whatever she uses) >adds up, as well as any other flutter, etc. This is more of an educated guess, >so no flames, please. If she went ADD, I think the problem would go away. First, she uses 48 tracks. Second, I think that TNW had more overdubbing and mixing, at least given the way she talked about it in the interviews of that period. I seriously think the problem is in the engineering - Del did a crap job and that's the end of the story. Remember, on HoL the tracks were built up from the demos recorded right on the master tapes. I don't know if she stuck to that idea for TSW. ADD would not solve anything, really. If the sounds are recorded crappily, then they're gonna sound crappy when you do the digital mix. Clearer, maybe, but still crap. I've heard plenty of AAD albums that sound phenomenally good, even better than some DDD ones. If the songs were better, she could record them on a 4-track and I'd be happy... -- Jon Drukman (space children intro mix) uunet!sco!jondr jondr@sco.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.
brownfld@ux1.cso.uiuc.EDU (Kenneth R Brownfield) (06/27/91)
jondr@sco.COM (Jon Drukman) writes: >I briefly entertained the notion that the problem was in the mastering >stage, but that doesn't account for the incredibly obvious "tearing" and >hiss that accompany the entrace of practically every vocal part on the >album. >Do you have the US or UK disc? US. I was listening for hiss and EQ, not anything more specific (or incomprehensible to this mixing/etc. amateur.) >> Whoever recorded or mixed Rocket's Tail and turned the drums into mush >>should be shot. It almost sounds compressed. >This is a fairly meaningless comment. Compression is used on practically >everything to some degree. Without it, you get that great amateurish >recorded in a basement feel as all the levels go zooming around. What I meant was severely compressed. A local top-40 station compresses the _Hell_ out of their stuff, and it sounds disgusting and blah. Drums on the station sound similar to Rocket's Tail, although not as bad. I didn't take into account that you couldn't read my mind. :-) Reworded: The drums have about as much whack as the vocals. Closer? I agree with you on the rest; good points. >If the songs were better, she could record them on a 4-track and I'd be >happy... A Radio Shack mono cassette recorder... >Jon Drukman (space children intro mix) uunet!sco!jondr jondr@sco.com >Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down. -- Ken. Kenneth R. Brownfield brownfld@uiuc.edu Computing Services Office uunet!uiucuxc!uiuc.edu!brownfld University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. (finger for more info.)
nrc@cbema.att.COM (Neal R Caldwell, Ii) (06/28/91)
>From article <17983@scorn.sco.COM>, by jondr@sco.COM (Jon Drukman): > > No one yet knows why brownfld@ux1.cso.uiuc.EDU (Kenneth R Brownfield) said: >>this album." I listened to the CD with _good_ headphones, and the songs that >>were engineered by Del seemed to a bit better, if different at all. Also, >>Straight Down The Middle, which was engineered _and_ recorded by Del seemed to >>be among the better sounding, both EQ and S/N wise. Engineered and recorded are essentially the same thing. I think you mean engineered and mixed. I agree in that I like the mix and EQ better but I can't even begin to figure out why you would think that S/N was better. On my system when _Walk Straight Down the Middle_ starts it sounds like someone put a record on. The engineer is responsible for getting the sound on tape as best as he can; the right sound with as little garbage as possible. He then has to edit and sync all the bits and pieces together. It's 90% likely that any unwanted noise is going to creep into the tracks during this step of the process. The mixing doesn't come in until later. When you consider that Del engineered every track on the album I think you have your number one suspect. The main variables that get thrown into the engineering puzzle are the sessions that were done away from Kate's studio which were recorded by others. One case of a noise problem that may be associated with a different engineer is the wretched rumbling noise on _Rocket's Tail_. This may be associated with the Trio's vocal track but I really doubt it. > I briefly entertained the notion that the problem was in the mastering > stage, but that doesn't account for the incredibly obvious "tearing" and > hiss that accompany the entrace of practically every vocal part on the > album. Gosh, aint' windowing wonderful. I've just discovered suspect number two. If you're fingering the vocals I have to dredge up this little tidbit. In the Option interview Kate says... "As soon as I've got an idea, it can go on tape because Del's there. Now for me to actually try to put that on tape, it's so complicated. On occasion I've tried to do it, and it's a joke." Now obviously she's talking about more than the vocals there but you get the point. She's not terribly comfortable with the equipment. Now in the Newsletter article that Del wrote about the engineering job, Del says... "We spent many late nights at the studio, just the two of us, working away on lead vocals (late at night seems to be the best time for Kate's voice, and also there is less noise outside to leak in). We would use the same method or recording as much as possible in one go and then compiling the final voice. This was one job which Kate preferred to do alone. Indeed, I think that I would have been more of a hindrance than a help, as I thought that any one of the takes could have been used on the song as the lead vocal." So if she worked on the lead vocals alone it's possible the problems with the vocal tracks are hers. Actually I think it likely that Del just leaves everything set up and she has at it which would seem to be pretty bullet-proof but who knows. Of course, this brings me back to another of my pet notions, that Kate has gotten too private for the good of her music. She just isn't comfortable singing in front of people anymore. If the trend continued she'd be in her closet at home right now with a cassette recorder. I have high hopes that her Con appearance (London, not Cleveland) and talk of going back to some of her old techniques and possibly doing shows are signs that she's decided to tackle this problem. > Do you have the US or UK disc? In spite of the claims when this issue first appeared (way back when) all the same audio rubbish is on the UK version. The EQ is perhaps just a bit less muddy. >> Whoever recorded or mixed Rocket's Tail and turned the drums into mush >>should be shot. It almost sounds compressed. <> Reworded: The drums have about as much whack as the vocals. Closer? Del Palmer's your man. Out the door, line on the left, one cross each. Pick up archive file 0106 if you can. There is an article from the KBC newsletter there in which Del talks about the engineering work he did. He talks at length about the techniques he used on the drum sounds... "[Talk about how he miked the drums] This would give plenty of 'click' to the signal, which would allow the drum to penetrate the final mix. Recording this bass drum and snare was relatively straightforward, as it involved just the replacement of the existing ones with the new, stronger-sounding ones. It's a funny thing but as I recall, every time we recorded a bass drum I found myself "rolling out" the low mid-frequency EQ at around 1kHz. This always seemed to improve the sound and make it more punchy no matter what other frequencies I fiddled with." Nail 'im up! Nail some sense into 'im!!! Of course, I have to point out that Kate had to ok all this punchiness. Also, I really don't mean to pick on Del. Obviously he's a talented fellow. I just think he got in over his head by going straight from engineering primarily the demo tracks to engineering the whole thing. "Don't drive too slowly." Richard Caldwell AT&T Network Systems att!cbnews!nrc nrc@cbnews.att.com