oliveau@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Oliveau) (09/19/90)
Netters - Thanks for all of your responses to my posting. A received a lot more mail than I thought I would, including numerous requests for a summary, so here it is. Retix checks out to be pretty good. There are a number of other companies in the same business, but consensus has it that Retix is about the best you can get. I have enclosed my original posting followed by exerpts from responses which are separated by double lines (=====). Text in square brackets, [], is my own. I have not included return mail addresses for the responders because a number of people have requested annonomy. If you want to contact the writers of particular responders, please contact me by E-mail. Please note that these opinions are those of the responders, not mine, or my company's unless otherwise noted. I have no association with any companies or organizations mentioned herein unless otherwise stated. I hope you find this of some use: > From ucla-cs!oliveau@oahu.cs.ucla.edu Tue Aug 28 17:55:43 PDT 1990 > > Retix made a very keen presentation to my company a couple of weeks > ago. We are charged with building an ES and an IS and I think > the Retix source code would help a lot. Has anyone had experience > with Retix? Particular questions that come to mind are > > Is the source code readable? > Is it efficient? > Is the 'example code' worth a darn? > How about support from Retix? (it costs a bundle!) > What about overall value? > > Thank you in advance for your help. *Please* E-mail responses to > me, then I will post a summary if there is enough interest. By the > way, are there other shops in the same business as Retix? How do > they stack up? > > Again, thanks! > > Greg. ==================== The 4.3-BSD Reno release contains code for OSI TP4/CLNP, and ES-IS, and the university of wisconsin is actively constructing an IS-IS daemon. If you are unwilling to obtain the tape directly from berkeley, any licensee can give you the OSI-specific code, which is independent of AT&T licensing. An interface to ISODE exists, and it has been shown to interoperate with ultrix/decnet-V FTAM. ==================== ISODE is publically available; you can get it via anonymous ftp If you can FTP to the Internet, then use anonymous FTP to uu.psi.com [136.161.128.3] to retrieve the file isode-6.tar.Z in BINARY mode from the isode/ directory. This file is the tar image after being run through the compress program and is approximately 4.5MB in size. uunet has made the ATT - free parts of BSD available via anonymous ftp, they don't have the new release yet, but you could also expect the code to appear they in maybe about 6 weeks. ==================== OSIware is a possible alternative to RETIX, in Vancouver, BC. FON: 604-436-2922; FAX: 604-436-3192. There is always ISODE... ==================== We've used Retix on some projects for several years now. Other companies to look into include TITN and Touch. See Data Comm. Buyers Guide or some other source for addresses and phone numbers. With some glitches, support has been good for answering numerous questions we've had, and most of the software is updated at least once a year (even so, support *is* expensive). The sample code, like most sample code, is simplistic (e.g., initiator only or responder only), but good to give you a starting point. It's useful for information, it's not enough to base a real system around. The code is well-designed for portability, but things are still a lot easier if your target environment is Unix. We've ported the lower 4 layers to MS-DOS, and are working on the upper layers now. The code is complex but quite readable, and commented. The manuals take a black box approach, and don't explain the inner workings of the layers. Hooks are in place for things most people don't use yet, like quality of service, but QOS is not actually implemented in the source (you could add it). Several years ago, when we started getting into this, Retix was the only company that had a reasonably mature full stack. I can't compare value at present. Similarly, can't help on efficiency. ==================== Greg, I really don't know, since I haven't looked recently, and when we first started with OSI they were about the only game in town. At that time, years ago, Touch products were still about Alpha test. Now that our programmers and software people know Retix software, we're not looking to change. One thing for sure, if you're porting source code over, it's a considerable effort, not just load and compile! Still far better than trying to re-invent the stuff! ==================== I haven't dealt with them personally, but Encore Computer Corp. has just released a multithreaded GOSIP implementation that is based on Retix's products. They (Retix) seems to specialize in OSI software and the products looks solid. I haven't heard any complaints about them. >By the way, are there other shops in the same business as Retix? How do >they stack up? I believe that Lachman (now Interactive) has made some attempts at producing an OSI protocol stack. I don't know much about it, though. The code was quite readable when we had it here... clean state machine, short functions, block comments per function. Too bad we couldnt use it (politics basicly). ==================== My ISODE experience is rather indirect, and largely colored by being Marshall's mentor since 1982, so I might be biased. yes, it is entirely Upper Layers at this point, with release of BSD 4.4, it will include the Lower Layers too (the LL code comes from Wisconsin, courtesy of IBM). But, BSD 4.4 ain't out yet! Don't know when it will be out, either. I guess I misread what you were asking for, and did not perceive the LL orientation. I expect that RETIX is your best bet, but I know it is indeed very expensive. ==================== >>>> Is the source code readable? Yes, is it. You must hold the technical documentation about, anyway. The right problem is TO HAVE this documentation, expecially if you have to write deeply on it. >>>> Is the 'example code' worth a darn? It seems the example code is just an example, oops! just a very poor example. >>>> How about support from Retix? (it costs a bundle!) I have not a good experience with this support. My contact is Retix Ireland, US support team is different,maybe. ==================== I visited retix a while ago, and looked at their code. I think this is worth doing. I thought it was OK to look at and reflected good programming practice. I looked at the transport code only, though, so again, you might want to do this yourself (if they let you). > Is it efficient? I haven't run it. > Is the 'example code' worth a darn? The example code which provides the MAP API for FTAM didn't have asynchronous operations of the nature implied by the MAP API committee (i.e., async means "start a background operation" rather than the unix NDELAY or NONBLOCK semantics). That may have changed. > How about support from Retix? (it costs a bundle!) > What about overall value? I think, from all I have read of other [..] people's opinions, that the retix code provides a good start. You may want to make modifications to it based on specific requirements you have. > > Thank you in advance for your help. *Please* E-mail responses to > me, then I will post a summary if there is enough interest. By the > way, are there other shops in the same business as Retix? How do Yes, there are. One of them is Marben, which is located in Paris (France). Another is Spider (Spyder?) systems, which I think is in the UK (but it might be just the east coast of the US?). Another shop I have heard of is LDR (LDR systems?) in the UK. There was another one I heard of located somewhere in the southwest (Arizona?) I think it was sawtooth systems or something like that. But it's been a long time (5 years) since I saw anything of those last two. (I haven't been looking, either.) My shot at things is that Marben is excellent as is LDR. I don't know enough of the others to comment. ==================== Hmmm... well I didnt spend a lot of time working with the code personally, but the listings I looked at looked more comprehensible than a lot of code I've seen for the reasons I mentioned (plus consistent coding style). The guy who ported it to our machine and worked on STREAMS-izing it (except the ethernet interface) didnt complain... and some other Unisys types in Utah, who work with our present product (from Marben) have seen the Retix code and seemed impressed. However, times change and code can get messed up. As far as I know, the main competition is Marben and Touch. There is also the PD UWisc code, which is supposed to go into 4.4BSD. ==================== I think the code is ok, about the philosophy, and it follow a right scheme. The reader should be an experienced programmer, a C-begginner can have, maybe, a little shock. The support for us is not fast, maybe because Retix Ireland is not a development place, or maybe in Ireland the language is not a BBC language like I speak (??????!!!!!!?????????). I'm in a project team working on FTAM and VT, so I can not say you a lot of things about yours interests. The only things that I can say about Retix is that is a leader in this field, at the moment I'm a consultant in [..] and retix is very present here. So, it seems everythings goes well. It should be better get a comparison with some other store. Anyway I think is the only one with a large listing of products. Finally, I think Retix will be present in the [..] future. The other store I know is located in Italy and the name is TECSIEL. ==================== Network Mangement code. I personally don't have first hand experience with the code, but I know that when we bought Nodal Management code, we were allowed to read it for supportability and such. I think it's important for you to be able to take a look at it and analyze the areas of expandability, supportability, and how readable it is. > Is the source code readable? > Is it efficient? > Is the 'example code' worth a darn? By reading the example code, you can probably get a good ideas about the two questions above it. I beleive 'Touch' in Santa Cruz sells their code also. It is mainly based on 'Marben' code who is in Grenoble France. I imagine it is very good code considering the fact that Europe is about five years ahead of the U.S. in networking. ==================== I don't know much about the Retix package for Es / Is. Are you aware of the OSI offering of Touch Inc / Marben ? They have a great Es / Is package (among many others). ==================== . . . I did an evaluation of OSI protocol suppliers recently. I found that Retix appeared to be one of the two best options. It depends a bit on what you are building, and which bits you think you would best do yourself. At the lower layers, especially on LANs for DOS and OS/2 workstations Retix new LAN transports look second to none. At the upper layers, Retix have the broadest set of shrink wrapped, and source code for applications. The other vendor I like is Data Connection in the UK. Though relatively unknown, they are pretty solid. They have a 1988 stack and 1988 X.400 MTA. Also some useful tools for building OSI applications like an interesting ASN.1 server, and an object oriented database server. Edinburgh Uni computer centre are using Data Connection stuff for some workstation based OSI App. development they are doing for the UK Janet. They have portations to many platforms, (Unix, OS/2, DOS, Windows, other) but don't sell shrink wrapped in the end user market. Other people we looked at are: TITN - San Franscisco area (popular X.25 provider, own lower layers up to session, agent for Logica X.400 s/w) Touch/Marben - San Fransisco area too, Spider - Edinburgh - (up to Transport layer only). OSIWare - Vancover - 1984 X.400, and working on X.500 Others I got info on but didn't look closely at was Net-Tel in the UK. ==================== We have no direct experience with Retix source code but we let the Sema group port the Retix MHS software on Sun X.25. This was about 2 1/2 years ago. The quality of the software was far less then optimal by then. We found a number of bugs in MHS and session. But they are almost the only ones on the market and they have been improving their stuff for some years now. I also heard from other colleagues that the software was not perfect. Given the amount of 'B-test' sides Retix has it is probably the best you can get. The support of Retix was (as far as we perceived) reasonably well. The only other supplier is OSIWARE I think in Canada. They survived from an earlier company that was businesswise less succesful. ====================