ugeileen@cs.Buffalo.EDU (E. McGowan) (06/08/89)
In my opinion a man can most definitely be a feminist. My best friend is a man, and a feminist. He's taught me a lot, and been a rock of support when I felt defeated and considered giving up and trodding down the traditionalist path. Though I was a feminist before I met him, and most likely would still be one without his help, our friendship had been invaluable to me and has undoubtedly strengthed my convictions. Feminism isn't women vs. men, it's about belief systems, attitudes, independent of gender. ugeileen@cs.Buffalo.EDU
bmaraldo@watmath.waterloo.edu (Commander Brett Maraldo) (06/08/89)
In article <8906080054.AA08193@joey.cs.Buffalo.EDU> ugeileen@cs.Buffalo.EDU writes: > In my opinion a man can most definitely be a feminist. > [...]Feminism isn't women vs. men, it's about belief systems, > attitudes, independent of gender. Yes! Why are those of us with undistorted unoppressive attitudes not heard by the masses. Why is that the angry anti-men (read: oppressing) women (they call themselves feminists) are the loudest? Why can't we all just realize the importance of equality and get on with it? Instead we are still loosing the battle of oppression vs. humanity. Brett L maraldo [My observation is that people with extreme views will always get the most media attention. The moderates never seem to be speaking as loud because they get fewer chances to. - MHN] -- -------- Unit 36 Research --------- "Alien Technology Today" bmaraldo@watdcsu.waterloo.ca {uunet!clyde!utai}!watdcsu!bmaraldo
bmaraldo@watdcsu.waterloo.edu (Commander Brett Maraldo) (06/09/89)
In article <8906080054.AA08193@joey.cs.Buffalo.EDU> ugeileen@cs.Buffalo.EDU writes: > In my opinion a man can most definitely be a feminist. > [...]Feminism isn't women vs. men, it's about belief systems, > attitudes, independent of gender. Yes! Why are those of us with undistorted unoppressive attitudes not heard by the masses. Why is that the angry anti-men (read: oppressing) women (they call themselves feminists) are the loudest? Why can't we all just realize the importance of equality and get on with it? Instead we are still losing the battle of oppression vs. humanity. [Because you're outnumbered by anti-women men? Or that the anti-women men are the loudest? Because not only are the anti-men women in the way, so are the anti-women men? Perhaps you could explain to me how anti-men women can "oppress"? Don't you have to have power in order to oppress? (This isn't a sarcastic question, I'm really curious.) I don't at all like anti-men women (or anti-women men) but how are they oppressive? --Cindy] Brett L Maraldo -- -------- Unit 36 Research --------- "Alien Technology Today" bmaraldo@watdcsu.waterloo.ca {uunet!clyde!utai}!watdcsu!bmaraldo
nige@csd4.milw.wisc.EDU (Nigel M. Kusch ) (06/11/89)
I am most interested in and active in the Lesbian/Gay/Whatever rights movement and in the Feminist movement. As a mostly gay man, I can directly associate myself with the former movement, while as a man, I understand the plight of wimmin, but don't have a first-hand experience with their plight. Thus, I think that men can be supporters of the feminist cause, can work for it, and be interested in it. However, because they have not experienced first-person the oppression on all levels that a womyn must endure as closely as would a womyn, they cannot be feminists in such a true sense as are wimmin. I'm not saying that men need stay out of the movement, I am simply stating that the feminist movement is controlled by, motivated by, and comprised of wimmin FIRST, and supported by men. Any comments? I have little experience with feminism, and need arguments for or against... [NOTE: womyn/wimmin are alternative spellings of woman/women intended to remove the man/men from the words. -- Cindy, staving off a flurry of queries] .--++--.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.--++] NIGE [++--.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.--++--. --.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.--++--.__.-- __] UUCP <...uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!nige> [ ] Internet <nige@csd4.milw.wisc.edu> [__ --.__.--++--.__.] Bitnet <nige%csd4.milw.wisc.edu@Interbit [--.__.--++--.__.-- ``The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about.'' --Oscar Wilde, c/o Monty Python
maton@dvinci.USask.CA (Terry Maton) (06/14/89)
From article <8906080054.AA08193@joey.cs.Buffalo.EDU>, by ugeileen@cs.Buffalo.EDU (E. McGowan): > > In my opinion a man can most definitely be a feminist. My > best friend is a man, and a feminist. He's taught me a lot, and > been a rock of support when I felt defeated and considered giving *some copy deleted* > Feminism isn't women vs. > men, it's about belief systems, attitudes, independent of gender. > > ugeileen@cs.Buffalo.EDU I say 'BRAVO!!' to that. For far too long the view has been 'us vs. them' I am amazed at how many people still hold on to the old ways of thinking. The last line in the article from E. McGowan (to me at least) sums it up completely. The whole education system, media presentation etc. needs desperately to be changed so that our children can grow up without the old ways being fed to them daily both at school and at home. I know that a lot of blatant and obvious stuff has now been changed, BUT it is the less obvious things that are less easy to fight and are so easy to absorb! Terry Maton University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon Saskatchewan Canada uucp address: maton@dvinci.USask.ca bitnet address: MATON@SASK.BITNET ******* One Planet - One People - PLEASE *******
jrl@cs.utexas.EDU (john.lupien) (06/14/89)
In article <5988@watdcsu.waterloo.edu> julian!watdcsu.waterloo.edu!bmaraldo@watmath.waterloo.edu (Commander Brett Maraldo) writes: >In article <8906080054.AA08193@joey.cs.Buffalo.EDU> ugeileen@cs.Buffalo.EDU writes: >Why are those of us with undistorted unoppressive attitudes not heard >by the masses. (?) [other rhetorical questions deleted] >Instead we are still loosing the battle of oppression vs. humanity. >Brett L maraldo Oppression is the major tool currently in use for maintenance and enforcement of the status quo. The only way to not be oppressed is to stand against oppression - if you run and hide, you have lost your rights by abandonment. Taking a stand has its own price - ask the students in Beijing (the ones still living). You must pay this price or lose your freedom. Don't think that you have not been heard when you take a stand for the rights you know are yours - the world hears you, and your cause will win in the end. There is every chance that you will not yourself have the opportunity to reap the benefits your efforts may realize. "Jane Roe" had her baby, and gave it up for adoption, but her voice was heard, and today we must continue her fight. Don't forget that the oppressors never rest - they want power, and they will take it when they can. They have no power unless we give it to them by default. The price of laziness or indifference is not only your own freedom, but that of others who need your efforts to support their own. Keep fighting for humanity, and show the world that oppression is inhuman. John Lupien jrl@mvuxr.att.com -- "A man gazing at the stars is | ARPA: tittle@glacier.ics.uci.edu proverbially at the mercy of | UUCP: {sdcsvax|ucbvax}!ucivax!tittle the puddles in the road." | BITNET: cltittle@uci.bitnet --Alexander Smith | USnail: PO Box 4188, Irvine CA, 92716
tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle) (06/15/89)
About ten years ago Ellison wrote an article which is related to the subject of this debate. My position is similar to his, and he is a much better writer. Introduction to Lonely Women Are the Vessels of Time by Harlan Ellison "Had this really weird, essentially ugly evening at the University of Rochester (New York) last April. Several persons of a genetically female persuasion had maneuvered the otherwise sane and exemplary U. of Rochester Women's Caucus into an attempt to ban the film version of my story "A Boy and His Dog" on the grounds that it was violently sexist and anti-female. I'm not going to go into all that. It was a night that only reaffirmed my conviction that the mass of humans, male and female alike, are what the late Bruce Elliott called "genetic garbage." Ugly statement. I won't argue the point. All I wish is that *you* had been there. Kee-rist! Madness. It's mentioned here solely to keynote the point that for a writer in Our Time, trying to write as honestly and evenhandedly as he or she can, it is impossible to write *anything* that doesn't infuriate one pressure group or another, large or small. Even if one cares passionately and believes in the validity of some Movement, one can be, at best, only a fellow traveler; and that smacks of sycophancy. So either the writer avoids writing any damned thing that might affront, or gets past a kind of universal knee-jerk Liberalism and cops to the truth that we are all pretty much alike, male and female, black and white, young and old, ugly and lovely. Pretty much alike in our ownership of human emotions, needs, drives, failings. And try to write about the human heart in conflict with itself as truly as one can. And if that means stomping on the feet of men or women belonging to this ethnic or cultural group or that... well, I've never thought for a moment I was going to die with the reputation of being one of America's most beloved figures. It ain't in the cards. I'd rather be honest than chic, anyway. (He said, looking over his shoulder)." * "The arts serve purposes beyond themselves; the purposes of what they dramatize or represent at that remove from the flux which gives them order and meaning and value; and to deny these purposes is like asserting that the function of a handsaw is to be hang above a bench and that to cut wood is to belittle it." ---- Richard P. Blackmur, A critic's Job of Work