kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) (08/15/90)
I'm interested in women's opinions about changing names when they are married. In this last month I've spent 10 to 20 hours updating and correcting our church's directory of members. I was trying to get up to date addresses and track down some inactive members who had moved out of the area. Some of this time, but by no means all, was spent dealing with church members who had gotten married and changed their names. Of course, I could not get AT&T directory service information under their previous names and I frequently had trouble finding their new names. I found it very frustrating. How do you women feel about changing your name when you're married? What sort of frustrations has it caused you? It seems to me (a male) that changing your name shows belonging/ /allegiance/ownership/subservience/possession/etc (you pick the word) to your husband. How do you see it? BTW, yes, I'm married. Almost 20 years ago, my wife changed her name to mine. We've talked about this several times and she says she probably wouldn't do it again. For some of those 20 years, I've thought that I might have changed my name to be hyphenated with hers, if I'd been more liberated at the time. But when I see the frustrations it causes, I beginning to think that it might be an out of date custom. What do you think? -- Kerry G. Forschler | Voice: 206-237-1274 (work) Boeing Commercial Airplanes | Voice: 206-235-1435 (home) P.O. Box 3707, M/S 96-02 | UUCP: ..!uunet!bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173 Seattle, WA 98124-2207 | Boeing net: kgf2173@tahoma
twain@blake.acs.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) (08/17/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP> bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: >I'm interested in women's opinions about changing names when they >are married. >[...] >It seems to me (a male) that changing your name shows belonging/ >/allegiance/ownership/subservience/possession/etc (you pick the >word) to your husband. How do you see it? I did not change my name when I married, nor would I change it if I married again. I identify very strongly with my name; in some sense it seems to represent who I am: I AM Barbara Hlavin. I don't know who Barbara Somebodyelse is. And as a writer I find names and naming very powerful stuff. I also find the practice objectionable for all the (good) reasons you list above. A related anecdote: I married in 1980, and the following year we filed a joint income tax form. For various reasons our taxes were complicated that first year, so we went to H&R Block. The CPA who did our return was very hostile to me; apparently he disapproved of the fact that I had not taken my husband's name, and he filled out the form listing me, incorrectly, as Barbara [former husband's last name]. I pointed out that this was wrong. He refused to look at me and didn't answer me. I said, "Look: there is no such person as Barbara [blank]. There is no such legal entity with that Social Security number." He lifted his head, fixed me with a glare of loathing, and snarled, "IT DOESN'T MATTER." "CHANGE THE NAME," said my husband, and the Q-tip did. I couldn't help but feel he was making the point that he was not about to do what a WOMAN told him to do. --Barbara -- Barbara Hlavin Oh I am a cat that likes to twain@blake.acs.washington.edu Gallop about doing good. U. Washington AI-10/Seattle 98195 -Stevie Smith, The Galloping Cat
vicki@mathcs.emory.edu (Vicki Powers) (08/17/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP>, bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: > I'm interested in women's opinions about changing names when they > are married. > I did not change my name when I married. My name is part of me, I can't imagine changing it (nor could my husband - he would have protested if I had wanted to change my name). I haven't had too many problems - we did have trouble filing joint tax returns until this year. Finally this year they changed the forms to allow different last names. By the way, our daughter (who is 3 weeks old today!) has my last name. We couldn't decide which name to use, finally we decided (in the middle of labor) that a girl would get my name and a boy his name. This has certainly raised eyebrows, especially among my husband's relatives. Vicki -- Vicki Powers | vicki@mathcs.emory.edu PREFERRED Emory University | {sun!sunatl,gatech}!emory!vicki UUCP Dept of Math and CS | vicki@emory NON-DOMAIN BITNET Atlanta, GA 30322 |
huxtable@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Kathryn Huxtable) (08/17/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP>, bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: > I'm interested in women's opinions about changing names when they > are married. > ... > How do you women feel about changing your name when you're married? > ... > What sort of frustrations has it caused you? > > It seems to me (a male) that changing your name shows belonging/ > /allegiance/ownership/subservience/possession/etc (you pick the > word) to your husband. How do you see it? > ... > What do you think? I think that in today's society, the only concievable reason for a couple to change their names when they marry is to identify the couple as a family unit. This can probably be done in other (less obvious) ways. I don't like the custom, myself. For me, it buys into to much of the traditional Christian(-like) heterosexual patriarchal attitudes to sit well with me. -- Kathryn Huxtable huxtable@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
bthomas@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Becky Thomas) (08/18/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP> bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: >I'm interested in women's opinions about changing names when they >are married. I just got married a month ago, and decided to keep my name. There were several reasons: - I'm working on a PhD in computer science, and have had a journal article accepted under my birth name, so changing it now would mean I wouldn't get credited with that article; nobody would know that was me! I've also begun to get a tiny bit of name recognition among a very small set of AI researchers, and I don't want to start over. - I do think I would be giving up a part of me if I adopted someone else's name. Friends have pointed out that I'm still taking a man's name - it's just my father's instead of my husband's. But I have lived with that name all my life, so it's *my* name, which was handed down from my father. (My husband and I have decided to give our daughter(s) my last name and our son(s) his, so that both get carried on.) - As Kerry points out, changing one's name makes it hard for people to find you. - Plus, changing your name means going around changing all kinds of documents - driver's license, social security card, credit cards, bank accounts, school records. I *hate* doing paperwork, so this alone would probably have been enough reason to keep my name. What are the drawbacks? At our wedding reception, I didn't have the "fun" of hearing people use a new name for me - I know some people who really find this to be exciting and fun, and I can understand that. Also, there's the annoyance of having to explain that yes, we really are married, and no, I'm not Mrs. Van Norden and no, he's not Mr. Thomas. (When our wedding announcement appeared in my hometown newspaper, the caption under the picture said "Becky and Bryan Van Norden," even though I explicitly asked for the caption "Becky Thomas and Bryan Van Norden." Sigh.) And then there's figuring out which name to give to children. While I think the tradition of the woman changing her name is *in itself* fairly harmless, I don't like the historical significance. The tradition of the wife submerging her identity and taking on the new identity of "wife of So-and-so" is disturbing to me, and is (IMO) outmoded. But in the end this is a personal decision, and I think each person should make it in terms of his or her own opinions and values. Becky Thomas bthomas@cs.stanford.edu >-- >Kerry G. Forschler | Voice: 206-237-1274 (work) >Boeing Commercial Airplanes | Voice: 206-235-1435 (home) >P.O. Box 3707, M/S 96-02 | UUCP: ..!uunet!bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173 >Seattle, WA 98124-2207 | Boeing net: kgf2173@tahoma -- -- Becky Thomas bthomas@cs.stanford.edu
jcarson@cs.washington.edu (Janet Carson) (08/19/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP> bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: >I'm interested in women's opinions about changing names when they >are married. I changed my name when I got married, mainly because changing my name was more important to my husband than not changing my name was to me. (I didn't want to change my name for reasons similar to those presented by other posters.) I didn't like changing my name: either the bureaucratic hassles or the emotional feelings associated with "abandoning" my maiden name. (A lot of those feelings surprised me!) Getting married wasn't the first time my name changed. When I was a kid, my parents had the family last name legally changed from Czyzewicz to Chess, for convenience more than anything. (Some of the other Czyzewiczes in the extended family had also become Chesses, I believe around the same time.) I don't remember this clearly; I don't even think I could spell Czyzewicz at the time, but I do remember feeling uneasy about it. I knew my name, and it was scary to think that it could just *change* all of a sudden. I remember my mom saying something like, "If you really don't like it, you can be Janet Czyzewicz, and all of the rest of us will be Chesses." To which I promptly responded "NO!" What is valuable about a name is not the name itself, it's who you share it with. Since I've gotten married and changed my name, I've found that I am much more neurotic about using my middle name or middle initial, perhaps because my middle name (Lynn) is shared by all of my sisters. It's a name that connects me to something. When a couple gets married, they can have separate last names. If they decide to have children, they can give the children different last names as well. But I have to wonder, once the practice of multiple-named families becomes common, will those names be worth keeping? If the only other Chesses I had known were my mom and a couple of obscure cousins, would it have been such a big deal to become a Carson? If my name hadn't been a part of something bigger, it wouldn't have been so difficult to let it go. It wouldn't have had the same meaning. It's not the *name* itself that is worth preserving, it's the *meaning* of the name, the connections the name provides. A name a daughter can share with her parents, siblings and extended family is a special gift that parents are free to give or not to give. The daughter might not even appreciate the value of such a gift until she has to consider giving it up. My opinions on name changing and child naming are not cut and dry. I don't like the historical reasoning behind a woman taking the man's last name. I don't like the bureacratic or emotional problems associated with changing a name. I don't think it's fair that the only way to pass on the family name under the traditional naming system is to have a son. But I have reservations about alternative naming systems that take away the most wonderful part of names -- the joy of sharing them with others. -- Janet L. Carson jcarson@june.cs.washington.edu
leesa@frith.egr.msu.EDU (Anita Lees) (08/20/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP> bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: >I'm interested in women's opinions about changing names when they >are married. > [stuff deleted] > >How do you women feel about changing your name when you're married? > I didn't care that much for my "maiden" name, 'Follis'. I liked my husband's name, 'Lees'. I welcomed the opportunity to get a nicer name. I didn't think it was any worse taking my spouse's last name than to wear my father's name. >What sort of frustrations has it caused you? > None, really. I had to change my name at the registrar's office at UM, and for a brief time there were 3 of me at two addresses :-), but that was minor. >It seems to me (a male) that changing your name shows belonging/ >/allegiance/ownership/subservience/possession/etc (you pick the >word) to your husband. How do you see it? > Yes, but as I stated above, I didn't prefer my father's name. For me, "allegiance" is the description I choose. I don't like the word "husband", BTW. It originally meant that he took you in as chattel, like the cows and chickens. Spouse is nicer, and gender neutral. >BTW, yes, I'm married. Almost 20 years ago, my wife changed her >name to mine. We've talked about this several times and she >says she probably wouldn't do it again. For some of those 20 years, >I've thought that I might have changed my name to be hyphenated >with hers, if I'd been more liberated at the time. But when I see >the frustrations it causes, I beginning to think that it might be >an out of date custom. > I got married 10 years ago. I considered hyphenation, but decided to make my "maiden" name into my new middle name instead: thus, Anita Jean Follis ---> Anita Follis Lees. All I had to do was present my marriage license to the Secretary of State, and (I think) testify or sign that I had no fraudulent intent. I saw an article (forgot where) that if the couple hyphenated their names, with the womyn's first, then the children could keep the male and female name lines going when they married. For example, Mary Smith + Joe Jones --> Mary Smith-Jones Joe Smith-Jones \ / Larry Steel + Ann Smith-Jones Jim Smith-Jones + Jan Baker --> Larry & Ann Smith-Steel Jim & Jan Baker-Jones Well, this is nifty... but a real headache at the family reunions! :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Anita Follis Lees leesa@frith.msu.egr.edu ================= no one else would WANT my opinions =================
hars@pws.bull.com (Adele Hars) (08/21/90)
I'm also a writer, and also kept my name when I married, and also had trouble with the IRS about it. But I would absolutely do it again and recommend it to anyone interested in perserving their identity after marriage. A few observations: 1. If you plan to keep your name, tell your husband-to-be very gently, and be prepared to stick to your guns. Many men seem to put a very high value on Mrs. John Smith, and are hurt when the wife-to-be objects. Eventually, though, he'll understand (assuming you're going into a good marriage). 2. If it makes him feel better, make dinner reservations in his name. 3. Be aware that older relatives may not accept it 4. Be prepared to explain your name is X and his name is Y to everyone from the Sears repair person to people at cocktail parties A question -- what do you name your kids? I favor hypenation, but in a few generations, that could get a little long... any thoughts? Maybe they'll just work it out. - Adele Hars
maz@ihlpl.att.com (Mary Ann Zeszutko) (08/21/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP> bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: >How do you women feel about changing your name when you're married? We married June 23, and my name is still the same one I've had all my life. I don't get bent out of shape if I'm called "Mrs. Kenny", but I do tell folks that's not my name. >What sort of frustrations has it caused you? None, so far. We're moving, and the new lease is in both names. We're moving out of state, though, and my driver's license and library card and all of that may be problematic when we go to get the new ones; I'm hoping we won't be hassled. I would have been open to changing to a new name altogether, but my husband complained that his work wouldn't be recognized as his if he changed his name. I told him I had already figured that out. For social situations, I could go by the societally-expected default, but my _name_ remains the same. -- aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs Naperville IL; att!ihlpl!maz maz@ihlpl.att.com *It's never too late to have a happy childhood* (708) 979-5749 *When I grow up, I want to be a radfem* *Lottery winner 623*
judyd%wizard.cna.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET (Judy E. Drake) (08/22/90)
In article <1157@tahoma.UUCP> bcstec!tahoma!kgf2173@uunet.uu.net (Kerry G. Forschler) writes: >How do you women feel about changing your name when you're married? I didn't change my name when I got married, four years ago, for all the reasons that have been discussed in this thread. My husband preferred that I keep my own name as well. However, I _did_ feel that I had the choice. If I had liked his name better than mine, I might have changed my name. His name is Hill. If my name had been Butz, or Pigg, or Zwartverwer, I might have welcomed a chance to change it to Hill. (Of course, he also could change his name to mine, if he wanted.) >What sort of frustrations has it caused you? None. We own two cars together, we've bought two houses, we have a child, we own a business together, we have joint credit cards and bank accounts, and we pay taxes together. We've never had the slightest problem with having different names. It seems to me that so many combinations of people can have joint possessions and finances that all these bureaucracies are set up to deal with affiliations between people who have different last names. It's really a trivial issue. Whenever we've applied for a mortgage or bought a car, or had our child, the people doing the paperwork never have asked or appeared to care whether we were married. There have been some small frustrations for me, when individuals or organizations assume that my husband is "the head of the household." (What an antiquated idea!) But I think those frustrations would have occurred whether or not I had changed my name. I get called "Mrs. Hill" once in a while, but not very often. People usually don't persist in calling me that after I ask to be called "Judy." A few times, I've had to explain that I'm married but have a different last name than my husband. It's never fazed anyone. Judy Drake
charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen) (08/24/90)
A while ago a former girlfriend of mine told me that she wanted to
keep her last name after marriage (no, we didn't break up over that!
long story, and we are still in touch!). At first this idea depressed
the heck out of me, and it still gives me twinges, but she was right.
With a career, she really *couldn't* change her name, because that is
how people will know her. Also, if I wouldn't want to change my name
to her last name, why should she? Then I got to thinking about the
confusion. What if at a luncheon engagement with her collegues, they
called me Mr. HerLastName, what would I do? I decided that I would
politely correct them by saying (and hopefully it would have been true
by that time!), "I'm sorry, but that should be Dr. HerLastName."
- Chuck , charles@sparky.eecs.umich.edudraughn@iitmax.iit.EDU (Mark Draughn) (08/24/90)
In article <15382@know.pws.bull.com> hars@pws.bull.com (Adele Hars) writes: >A few observations: [...] >2. If it makes him feel better, make dinner reservations in his name. Since my wife-to-be and I both have names that are tricky to spell and/or pronounce, we have been making reservations for years using the name "Gibson." It's only a restaurant, and I'm tired of having to spell my name to people over and over and over... In fact, we've been joking about changing both our names to something easier to spell. Or maybe to something more prestigious like Rockefeller or Vanderbilt. [...] >4. Be prepared to explain your name is X and his name is Y to everyone >from the Sears repair person to people at cocktail parties Yeah. My fiance isn't planning to change her name (I think mostly because of all the paperwork: bank accounts, school records, credit cards...) and we know we're going to run into this. I don't get upset when people call me Mister Dougherty, so I don't suppose she gets upset when people call her Mrs Draughn. But maybe, as with having to spell our names to people, it will begin to get on our nerves after the first 1000 times it happens. >A question -- what do you name your kids? I favor hypenation, but in a few >generations, that could get a little long... any thoughts? Maybe they'll >just work it out. If we have kids, maybe we'll let them have the easy-to-spell name... -- Mark Draughn | <draughn@iitmax.iit.edu> or <SYSMARK@IITVAX> on BITNET ----------------+ Academic Computing Center, Illinois Institute of Technology +1 312 567 5962 | 10 W. 31st Street, Chicago, Illinois 60616
regard@hpsdde.hp.COM (Adrienne Regard) (08/24/90)
I've been in and out of the name change business for some time, so I'll share my experiences with you. I had a perfectly horrid name when I was a kid. Compounded by the fact that all my sisters had lovely lilting Welsh names. Compounded by the teasing I endured for years by rhymes made out of my name. At 16, we moved from the small town I was raised in, and I incorporated my "confirmation name" (taken at 13, for the purpose of making a change later on) into my drivers license name - first name, confirmation name, last name. Then I signed it first initial, confirmation name, last name. That became my legal identity in the new town. A few years later, I got married. I was an actor at the time, and had been dissatisfied with my 'own' last name, and had been considering changing it anyhow, so I used the opportunity of the marriage to take my husband's last name (much nicer than my own, for the purposes of memory recall). It's terrifically *easy* to get your name changed on all important documents just by saying "I got married". Nobody asks for corroboration. You could get married to a Morris, and change your name to Smith on a whim, just by telling folks "I got married". At least, that's what I found. In fact, there were places who changed my name *for* me, even against my wishes, upon marriage. I wanted all my school records to be in my original name just for the sake of easy access, and yet the school went ahead and altered my records to the 'new' name. Took me a fight to get them changed back. Then I had a child, and then I got a divorce. The child's name was easy, since we were all Regards anyhow, so was she. When I divorced, I was still acting, and didn't want to change my name back to the non-memorable one, so I kept Regard, as did my daughter. Later, when I joined forces with Jon Purdy, and he adopted my daughter, the social services worker wanted my daughter to change her name from Regard to Purdy "as a symbol of building the bridge between her and her new father, rather than her old father". I had to point out to her (numerous times) that Regard was my DAUGHTER's name, not her father's property. It was also MY name, not her father's property. If my daughter wanted to keep it, the decision was entirely up to her. She kept it, to the chagrin of the social worker. I don't think the 'bridge' between my daughter and Jon was at all damaged in the process. Later, when Jon and I had a second daughter, she was named "Purdy", after him. In part to 'balance' out the family, in part because Jon was not comfortable passing Regard on to his offspring, since he does still associate the name with my ex. Frankly, I think that's silly, for the reasoning above, but I also respect my lover's wishes, and he was due to pick the name since the Purdy's were outnumbered. The scheme I like best has zip to do with my own experience, since mine evolved over time with a whole bunch of zigs and zags along the way, but I really *love* the idea of Joe Blow and Mary Smith becoming Joe and Mary Hayride, and all their children would be Suzy, Bobby and Kim Hayride, too. The last name would be a name chosen by the couple as their own commitment to family-hood -- the very start of their own new union. I can think of about 15 zillion good reasons *not* to change one's name upon marriage (I can also think of about 18 zillion reasons why *not* to get married) and about 8 good reasons *to* change one's name. Depends a little on which situation one finds oneself in. Adrienne Regard
sherri@ogicse.ogi.edu (Sherri Shulman) (08/24/90)
I've never had any substantial problems with keeping my name, but the trivial problems are frequent. They are not usually of the form of explaining to repairpeople/salespeople/etc. that we have two different names but REALLY are married. They are usually bookkeeping problems: book the car in for repair in one name, call for it using the other. Medial records suddenly appearing in the wrong name. Reminding schools/daycare arrangements about using your name instead of child's last name.... Even aften 10 years, I still haven't come up with a reliable way to manage this so that I don't confront it regualarly. BUT, I don't care very much either. And no one else seems to. sherri
gall@nexus.yorku.ca (Norm Gall) (08/28/90)
hars@pws.bull.com (Adele Hars) writes: | A question -- what do you name your kids? I favor hypenation, but in a few | generations, that could get a little long... any thoughts? Maybe they'll | just work it out. My wife and I have decided to use the Icelandic tradition of changing the last names of the children. My name is Norman Gall and my Wife's is Andrea McIntosh. Our male children will have the last name Normansen (son of Norman) and our female children will have the last name Andreadottir (daughter of Andrea). This defeats easy identification of family (but most Western family names are unnecessarily male oriented anyway), but does provide identification with the gender of the child. Icelanders (at least those that lived in New Iceland in Manitoba) didn't change their last names upon marriage anyway. Norm Gall -- "It is not the task of philosophy to affirm or deny the existence of things, but rather to clarify what assertions or denials of existence signify, if anything." -- PMS Hacker
ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz) (08/29/90)
I don't believe in a woman changing her name to her husband's for the sake of tradition. One couple I know did hyphenate their names and both use both names. My roommate had decided early on that whichever name was easier to spell was the name she would use. She is choosing her fiance's name. I won't choose my husband's name because I feel that I (note the 1st p. s.) would loose part of my identity as an individual and feel more like his property. I have worked long and hard for individuals to say my last name in it's entirety. Gansley-Ortiz is not that difficult to say, especially when you've had a chance to look at how it's spelled. Yet people still try to call me 'Ortiz' or 'Gansley', neither of which are my last name. I love my last name and I wouldn't give it up for the world. Let me also say that that's how I feel now and if 'Mr. Wonderful' so completely sweeps me off my feet, that there is a possibility that my feelings might change. A slight possibility. Another reason I don't advocate name changes is that it is harder to find a married woman if she changes her name. Also, if you are in the professional world, a lot of the work you did before you were married goes unnoticed, (not out of malice but) because people don't know that it's the same person's work they're reading or talking about. If you received any of your degrees in your maiden name, it is much easier to keep that name, then to go through the unnecessary hassle of having to point out your accomplishments to people who don't know your maiden name and are likely to forget it because it is not your name now. My Quarter's worth ag