loren@tristan.llnl.gov (Loren Petrich) (09/17/90)
In article <27089@usc.edu> gazit%cs.duke.edu@usc.edu (Hillel) writes: > > [on grown women being called / calling themselves "girls"...] >If the language is so un-important, as you said, then why do you care >so much about it? Why not to call human females over 18 women (or >womyn or wimmin or whatever they will want in the Nineties) >and be done with this silly subject? > >Why to debate so much a subject that has so little importance, >in *your* opinion? I think I know what the problem is. "Girl" and "boy" suggest a familiarity or a close relationship with the person being spoken about, because they were originally words for children, with which one often has an intimate relationship. The reason some women don't like being called "girls" is because that presupposes an intimacy that does not exist in their minds. Other women don't complain about being called "girls" in appropriate contexts. I am male, and I would not complain about being called a "boy" in some appropriate context. I would not, however, indiscriminately call women "girls". I would call a grown woman a "girl" only in a situation where I would call a grown man a "boy". Any comments from anyone? When would net.women think it OK to be called "girls"? When would net.men think it OK to be called "boys"? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster: loren@sunlight.llnl.gov Since this nodename is not widely known, you may have to try: loren%sunlight.llnl.gov@star.stanford.edu
pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu (Sharon L. Pedersen) (09/18/90)
In article <90255.141840ROPERK@QUCDN.BITNET> ROPERK@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Kim Roper) writes: > The "belittling" thing about the word "girl" is that it > implies a lack of maturity (in just about any sense of > the word). And makes communication hard, whether or not you think it's belittling. In Europe this past year it seemed as if most men I met had been taught that "girl" is the universal term in English for "female human", regardless of age. Once I was trying to find out the name of a mathematician I'd seen at seminars: "Do you know this woman, she has long hair in a braid?" I asked some graduate students I met. "No, I don't really know any of the girls in that seminar" replied one of them. Leaving me wondering if he'd be able to recognize who I was describing anyway: a faculty member about 35 years old. To me, "girl" brings up a picture of a child; "woman", of a grown-up. Granted, this is an example using non-native speakers; however, similar gaps of understanding have occurred with Americans: I once tried to ask some musicians why there were not highly trained girls' choirs, on a par with the famous boys' choirs, e.g. Westminster Abbey Boys' Choir, etc. "Well, grown-up's voices have a different quality from that of children's voices" was the somewhat bizarre reply. So I explained that no, I meant girl _children_. But I still couldn't get my question answered, because, no sooner did I ask the question again "are girls' voices different from boys'?" than the musicians were back to thinking that "girl" == "woman", and comparing female adults to male children. (Maybe some of this was innate resistance to having to admit that no-one knew if girls also could sing like angels, because no-one had bothered to listen to or train them?) --Sharon Pedersen pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu OR ucbvax!cartan!pedersen
sulak@ge-dab.ge.COM (John Sulak) (09/19/90)
In article <1990Sep18.012351.27167@agate.berkeley.edu>, pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu (Sharon L. Pedersen) writes: > And makes communication hard, whether or not you think it's > belittling. In Europe this past year it seemed as if most men I met > had been taught that "girl" is the universal term in English for > "female human", regardless of age. Once I was trying to find out the I try to be tolerant and understanding when speaking with people who speak English as a second language. I have struggled to communicate in French speaking and Spanish speaking countries. I learned German in the 1970's and my knowledge of 'modern' German is limited. When I learned it, however, I was taught that "Frau" meant "wife" and "Maedchen" meant "girl". It was either/or. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ "How do I explain to clients that society believes buying a rock (of ^ ^ cocaine) is three or four times as bad as raping a woman?" ^ ^ Robert Jakovitch, Broward [FL] Assistant Public Defender ^ ^ [from AP story 12 July 1990] ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Standard Disclaimer: These may not be my opinions, my employer's opinions, a devil's advocate's opinions, or anyone else's opinions. Are they opinions? -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
chrisj@netcom.UUCP (09/19/90)
In article <5779@ge-dab.GE.COM> sulak@ge-dab.ge.COM (John Sulak) writes: >I try to be tolerant and understanding when speaking with people who >speak English as a second language. I have struggled to communicate in >French speaking and Spanish speaking countries. Amen to that, especially if they are making the effort to speak *my* language when I am in their country, and might reasonably be expected to go the extra distance and speak theirs. >I learned German in the 1970's and my knowledge of 'modern' German is >limited. When I learned it, however, I was taught that "Frau" meant >"wife" and "Maedchen" meant "girl". It was either/or. John's German teacher gets a failing mark for that. `Frau' carries either of the English meanings `woman' or `wife', depending on context. Similarly, `Mann' means either `man' or `husband', again depending on context. In Goethe's *Faust*, Mephistopheles greets a women with ``Ihr Mann ist tot, und laesst sich gruessen'', freely translated ``Your husband is dead, and sends his greetings.'' <grin> John is exactly right about Maedchen, which BTW is a diminutive made from the root noun Magd (maid). The other standard word for `girl' in German is Fraeulein, which is also a diminutive (of Frau). Just to confuse things, I'll mention that the formal address to a married woman is Frau Schmidt, and to an unmarried woman or to a girl is Fraeulein Schmidt, so that one cannot formally greet an unmarried woman without calling her ``little woman'' or ``girl''! Not having kept up with developments in the German language since I graduated in 1969, I cannot say whether the Germans have developed a greeting analogous to Ms, but I believe they have not. We could go from here to a consideration of the fact that the polite greeting for to a woman unknown to the speaker is Frauelein (as Senorita, also a diminutive I believe, is in Spanish, etc.) and from there to the fact, often enough noted here or in soc.women, that our culture tends to value immaturity and devalue maturity in women, but not in men. But this article is quite long enough as it is. -- Chris (Christopher T. Jewell) chrisj@netcom.uucp apple!netcom!chrisj
vicki@mathcs.emory.EDU (Vicki Powers) (09/21/90)
In article <13386@netcom.UUCP>, chrisj@netcom.UUCP writes: > John is exactly right about Maedchen, which BTW is a diminutive made > from the root noun Magd (maid). The other standard word for `girl' > in German is Fraeulein, which is also a diminutive (of Frau). Just > to confuse things, I'll mention that the formal address to a married > woman is Frau Schmidt, and to an unmarried woman or to a girl is > Fraeulein Schmidt, so that one cannot formally greet an unmarried woman > without calling her ``little woman'' or ``girl''! Not having kept up > with developments in the German language since I graduated in 1969, I > cannot say whether the Germans have developed a greeting analogous to > Ms, but I believe they have not. Actually, they have in a way developed an equivalent of Ms.: nowadays, all women are Frau, regardless of marital status. Fraulein is really the equivalent of "girl", used for those of the female sex who are age 12 or less (approximately). Note: I am not a native German speaker, but have lived in Germany and have taken German lessons from native German speakers. Vicki -- Vicki Powers | vicki@mathcs.emory.edu PREFERRED Emory University | {sun!sunatl,gatech}!emory!vicki UUCP Dept of Math and CS | vicki@emory NON-DOMAIN BITNET Atlanta, GA 30322 |
hmj2@deimos.caltech.EDU (Helen Johnston) (09/21/90)
In article <13386@netcom.UUCP>, chrisj@netcom.UUCP writes... >Just >to confuse things, I'll mention that the formal address to a married >woman is Frau Schmidt, and to an unmarried woman or to a girl is >Fraeulein Schmidt, so that one cannot formally greet an unmarried woman >without calling her ``little woman'' or ``girl''! Not having kept up >with developments in the German language since I graduated in 1969, I >cannot say whether the Germans have developed a greeting analogous to >Ms, but I believe they have not. I can't speak for German here (though I had a conversation with a German speaking friend some weeks ago on this topic, and I _think_ I remember her saying it was the same), but certainly in French, where I was taught at school that 'Madame' was the address for a married woman, and 'Mademoiselle' for an unmarried woman, actual usage does not do this. Although this is still the definition given in the 'Robert' dictionary, an older woman is always addressed as 'Madame', regardless of marital status. If you address your 40 year old maiden aunt as 'mademoiselle', you'll either be slapped or accused of trying to flatter her! [This is exactly what me and my sister (then 23 and 19, respectively) encountered. We were each unfailingly addressed as "madame" which always made me smile as I was taught the same as above. It seemed that if you were female and had hit puberty, you were addressed as "madame" (my sister looked about 14). In any case, this is getting slightly off topic, so keep that in mind if you want to follow up on this article. --CLT]