jan@orc.olivetti.com (10/16/90)
In article <1990Oct12.214229.23575@nntp-server.caltech.edu> morphy@truebalt.cco.caltech.EDU (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes: >First of all, god is consistently referred to as male, unlike the >supreme deities of many other religions. In _The_ _Gnostic_ _Gospels_, by Elaine Pagels, she points out that some early Christian groups looked at the fact that the Hebrew word for "Holy Spirit" (breath) was feminine in the Old Testament, and neuter in Greek, and concluded that Joseph and Mary were His earthly parents, and the Father and the Holy Spirit were Jesus's heavenly parents. These groups passed the duties of celebrant among their congregants, including women. She asserts that the line '[the holy spirit] proceeds from the Father and the Son' in the Nicene creed, which split the Orthodox Churches from the Roman, was put in to put an end to this practice and those beliefs. I read a couple of years ago that the Episcopal Church now officially no longer supports that line of the creed, but unfortunately the prayer book was only a few years old when the decision was made (they come out only about every 40 years due to the expense of replacing them), so it'll be awhile before we see this change. Also, some feminist theologians point out that Jesus told several pairs of parables, where one each of the pair portrayed God as "like " a woman, and the other as like a man. One theologian points out it is the Church's fault, not the Bible's, that preachers tend to say "God IS the good shepherd," but "God is LIKE the householder," when the originals are parallel. Nevertheless, I see the original poster's point and agree with it in that I fear Christianity may not be able to make the transition to equality. It depends on how present the Spirit is to Her congregations. >Most damning, however, is that god consistently prefers to talk to >men. All prophets are male, as is Christ. Women are purely auxiliary, >as far as god is concerned. If the church is willing to admit that this is partly caused by editing, (ex: Miriam and Mary got left in), there might be hope. >The results of this are obvious. While women are welcome to perform, >say, fundraising duties or other auxiliary functions, they are almost >universally excluded from the power structure of organized >Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions. When I told my priest I wanted to be a priest, he said "You realize, don't you, that that raises the question of the gender of God." I got mad and said if women could carry boy babies, we could carry a male God-presence. He repeated his assertion, and, since I knew he was supporting two other women's bids to the priesthood, I decided to look into it further. I took Carol Christ's class on Women and Religion at San Jose State (in the women's studies department in association with sociology, I think), and majorly got my consciousness raised. I recommend a book she wrote together with Judith Plaskow, _Woman_Spirit_ Rising_ (not sure about the spaces.) Currently, _Laughter_ of _Aphrodite_ by Dr. Christ is available in bookstores, it's been a few years since I saw the other one. It's certainly an interesting problem. I also recommend _The_ _Changing_ of the _Gods_ by Naomi Goldenberg, for the very feminist, or anything by Dr. Sondra Marie Schneiders for the religious. (_Women_ and the _Word_, I think, comes to mind.) Dr. Schneiders is or was a professor of Biblical Studies at the Jesuit school in the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. If you ever get a chance to hear her speak, do it! She's VERY interesting. BTW, she was the one that pointed out the pairs of parables. Also BTW, after looking at our priest's pay in the Parish budget, I decided to stay in Engineering until my kids are through college, at least :-` ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ jan@orc.olivetti.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We must worship Universal Consciousness as each of the 5 genders in turn if we wish to be fully open to Yr glory. -- St. Xyphlb of Alpha III
morphy@truebalt.cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) (10/17/90)
[Consider following up to talk.religion.misc if you want to debate the theological questions. - MHN] jan@orc.olivetti.com writes: >In _The_ _Gnostic_ _Gospels_, by Elaine Pagels, she points out that >some early Christian groups looked at the fact that the Hebrew word >for "Holy Spirit" (breath) was feminine in the Old Testament, and >neuter in Greek, and concluded that Joseph and Mary were His earthly >parents, and the Father and the Holy Spirit were Jesus's heavenly >parents. That contradicts the repeated assertion in the Gospels that Mary was pregnant before she "knew a man". Besides, as a Catholic, I was taught that Mary remained a virgin all her life, although I haven't seen evidence of this in the Gospels. I remember asking the monk who was teaching us how Mary could preserve her hymen through labour(I was as Nasty as I Wanted to Be) and I got sent to the principal's office. Anyway, like many theological arguments, this is quite a stretch. I think the Reds should have a theologian as first base. They're gonna need divine intervention, anyway. What the heck.(Oops, the h-word) That reminds me. Satan's male, too, as are all the angels referred to by name. >These groups passed the duties of celebrant among their congregants, >including women. She asserts that the line '[the holy spirit] >proceeds from the Father and the Son' in the Nicene creed, which split >the Orthodox Churches from the Roman, was put in to put an end to this >practice and those beliefs. I read a couple of years ago that the >Episcopal Church now officially no longer supports that line of the >creed, but unfortunately the prayer book was only a few years old when >the decision was made (they come out only about every 40 years due to >the expense of replacing them), so it'll be awhile before we see this >change. I know many Orthodox people(Greek, Russian and Ethiopian) and none of them has heard of a female holy spirit. Maybe it got drowned out in androcentrism over the millenia, but I doubt it. >Also, some feminist theologians point out that Jesus told several >pairs of parables, where one each of the pair portrayed God as "like " >a woman, and the other as like a man. One theologian points out it is >the Church's fault, not the Bible's, that preachers tend to say "God >IS the good shepherd," but "God is LIKE the householder," when the >originals are parallel. That's neat, but Jesus and God are both males. >If the church is willing to admit that this is partly caused by >editing, (ex: Miriam and Mary got left in), there might be hope. Hope for what? What exactly is it that we're getting for all these contortions? >When I told my priest I wanted to be a priest, he said "You realize, >don't you, that that raises the question of the gender of God." I got >mad and said if women could carry boy babies, we could carry a male >God-presence. This is sad. Please set your ambitions a little higher. >Also BTW, after looking at our priest's pay in the Parish budget, I >decided to stay in Engineering until my kids are through college, at >least :-` Good choice, but methinks wrong reasons. Nuff said. The Little Church Lady in Pasadena
watson@spock.UUCP (Steve Watson) (10/19/90)
In article <1990Oct17.010243.22997@nntp-server.caltech.edu> morphy@truebalt.cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes: > >[Consider following up to talk.religion.misc if you want to debate the >theological questions. - MHN] Or soc.religion.christian (moderated). ..mostly deleted... > >Hope for what? What exactly is it that we're getting for all these contortions? Depends on what you want: those (like JMM) who, for their own reasons, are not adherents of Jewish/Christian/Islamic faiths need not concern themselves with reconciling their feminism with their faith. Those (like myself) who are religious, do need to: the choice to believe (and what to believe) may have been made upon criteria not related to gender issues, and we are then obliged to try and reconcile (for honesty's sake) things which may conflict with each other, but which are both important to us. And BTW, anything a given person might say on the subject must be understood as applying mainly (possibly exclusively) to their own religious association. E.g., I have nothing to say about feminism vis-a-vis Judaism or Islam, and very little regarding Catholicism. -- ====================== disclaimer =============================== "Blame me, not the Company I keep..." - Steve Watson UseNet: mitel!spock!watson@uunet.uu.net