schoi@teri.bio.uci.edu (Sam "Lord Byron" Choi) (03/12/91)
kleinj@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: >"Womyn" commonly refers to lesbians--especially radical lesbian/feminists-- >who refuse to use the word "men" in their identity. 'Nuff said. >[Would any straight women who use the spelling "womyn" care to respond? - MHN] I'm not a straight woman, but I feel I can respond based on what I've hear from a friend of mine who was the editor of the feminist paper on campus a couple years ago. I also inferred it, it's not that difficult when you think about where feminists are coming from. I suppose traditionally, French feminists would be more adamant about this spelling because they are much more into the theoretical aspect of gender discourse. Although I don't know the entomology of the word there is in the word "woman" the word "man." The implication is that the word "woman" is a derivative of the word "man." This reinforces the notion that Simon de Beauvoir brought up in _The_Second_Sex_ that in this society, when a woman has to define herself, she must first define herself as a woman. Her point is that no man would have to say this. For example, in literature classes, when you study Gertrude Stein, you wouldn't think it unusual if the professor said in introducing the lecture on one of her books, "Stein was an important woman writer of the modernist movement who..." The point of this is that you would think it weird if that same professor, in introducing a lecture on William Butler Yeats said, "Yeats was an important man poet of the early twentieth century who..." Do you see the point? Thus getting back to the word "woman" the connotation seems to be that a woman is something different from a man. There's nothing wrong with this except for the fact that the statement comes from the perspective of a man who is saying, "I, a man, am the norm. A woman, is that which deviates from the norm." The spelling "womyn" eliminates the possible entomological and linguistic connection to "man," and thus, so the claim goes, liberates the womyn from the androcentric language structures of our language, placing womyn on an equal level as men linguistically as an alternative rather than a derivative, and thus empowers her to define herself in her own discourse. If you don't buy this form of argument think about the example above. Yeats is a poet. Is Stein a poet? Poetess? A woman poet? Sam Choi schoi@teri.bio.uci.edu (Does the University of California give a shit about what I say? I think not...)
turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) (03/14/91)
----- In article <9103110943.aa18622@orion.oac.uci.edu> schoi@teri.bio.uci.edu (Sam "Lord Byron" Choi) writes: > ... in literature classes, when you study Gertrude Stein, > you wouldn't think it unusual if the professor said in introducing > the lecture on one of her books, "Stein was an important woman > writer of the modernist movement who..." > > The point of this is that you would think it weird if that same > professor, in introducing a lecture on William Butler Yeats said, > "Yeats was an important man poet of the early twentieth century > who..." > > Do you see the point? Thus getting back to the word "woman" the > connotation seems to be that a woman is something different from > a man. There's nothing wrong with this except for the fact that > the statement comes from the perspective of a man who is saying, > "I, a man, am the norm. A woman, is that which deviates from the > norm." The above analysis is now fairly common, and it accurately points to the assumptions that lay behind certain language uses. But as we shall see, it does little to explain the reason for 'womyn'. > The spelling "womyn" eliminates the possible entomological and > linguistic connection to "man," and thus, so the claim goes, > liberates the womyn from the androcentric language structures of > our language, placing womyn on an equal level as men linguistically > as an alternative rather than a derivative, and thus empowers her > to define herself in her own discourse. But clearly, this does not work. Refering to the previous example, it does not seem odd to read "Stein is a womyn poet". Where is the analogous adjective for Yeats? It still seems odd to read "Yeats is a man poet". Whether it is spelled womyn or woman, it is still a differentiator that indicates something other than the norm. At most, the use of 'womyn' instead of 'woman' differentiates twice from the norm: Stein is female, and she is also the kind of author of whom we say 'womyn' instead of 'woman'. There may be some improvement in pointing out, by the unusual spelling, the tacit assumption that 'man' is the unspoken "normal" adjective. But the language is by no means made gender neutral by the use of 'womyn'. (It should also be noted that the spelling 'womyn' does NOT eliminate whatever etymological connections exists. Fifty years from now, if 'womyn' is a widely used word, the dictionaries will show its etymology something like: wyman [fr. E 'woman', fr. OE 'wifman', fr. 'wif' woman, wife + 'man' human being, man]. Yes, we need to change the present, but we should be leary of any attempt to do this by rewriting the past.) > If you don't buy this form of argument think about the example > above Yeats is a poet. Is Stein a poet? Poetess? A woman poet? Stein is a poet. What we need to do is make that sound as normal as Yeats being a poet. Making her a womyn poet does not do that. Russell
scholl@uvmark.uucp (Kathryn Scholl) (03/14/91)
In article schoi@teri.bio.uci.edu (Sam "Lord Byron" Choi) writes: >you wouldn't think it unusual if the professor said in introducing >the lecture on one of her books, "Stein was an important woman >writer of the modernist movement who..." >The point of this is that you would think it weird if that same professor, >in introducing a lecture on William Butler Yeats said, "Yeats was an >important man poet of the early twentieth century who..." Agreed. This is an on-going, probably-will-not-change attitude which prevails in our media, school system, etc. >connotation seems to be that a woman is something different from a man. >"I, a man, am the norm. A woman, is that which deviates from the norm." >The spelling "womyn" eliminates the possible entomological and >linguistic connection to "man," and thus, so the claim goes, liberates >the womyn from the androcentric language structures of our >language, placing womyn on an equal level as men linguistically >as an alternative rather than a derivative, and thus empowers her >to define herself in her own discourse. My only question here is that, given a new lingo, won't society just simply *replace* that word when describing Stein, and still use *no* word when describing Yeats? I understand how the word itself defines an alternative of the being rather than a "subset" of the being. But I think the problem lies with the fact that, at least in verbal description, a word is used AT ALL. In this particular case, I don't think the word "womyn" will help anything, just replace the old usage with the new, therefore putting the woman in the "I, the woman, am the deviant of the norm." situation once again. >If you don't buy this form of argument think about the example above. >Yeats is a poet. Is Stein a poet? Poetess? A woman poet? And using the "womyn" scenario, Yeats is a poet. Stein is a womyn poet. I just don't understand how it helps here. Please elaborate. Thanks, Kathryn -- Kathryn Scholl ...uunet!merk!uvmark!scholl
farmerl@handel.CS.ColoState.Edu (lisa ann farmer) (03/18/91)
>kleinj@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes: > >>"Womyn" commonly refers to lesbians--especially radical lesbian/feminists-- >>who refuse to use the word "men" in their identity. 'Nuff said. > >>[Would any straight women who use the spelling "womyn" care to respond? - MHN] I would be what you refer to as a straight womyn although I don't think of myself in that term. I use 'womyn' because that is how i pronounce it. I also don't need to reinforce that this is a male-oriented society so I try to use words that don't contain 'man'. I don't think the term refers to lesbians only but I also don't think it excludes them as much as conventional terms. Perhaps it is a healthy thing that when using the term 'womyn' people think of both lesbians and "straights".:-) Lisa