dwp@willett.pgh.pa.US (Doug Philips) (03/14/91)
In article <jls.668306791@rutabaga>, rutabaga!jls@igor.rational.com (Jim Showalter) writes: > I'm very confused by this post. It sounds like what you are saying is > that women are inherently less aggressive/assertive than men. After > all, there were no men around to "oppress" the women, and the still > acted shy and retiring. How can this be blamed on male > aggression?--there weren't any "aggressors" in the room. "Inherently" What kind of straw argument is that? All it shows is that those women have been trained to be less aggressive. (Not that they are in unique in that regard, either.) And just how limited a view of "aggression" are you going to take? (see below about "interruptions") > >In February, the men's teacher left the school for medical reasons, > >and the classes were recombined. Two weeks after the recombination, > >all the women had shut up again. > > Why? What did the men in the combined class do to make this happen? > Did they threaten to kick the shit out of the women if they spoke up? > I somehow doubt it. So what DID happen? WHY did the women clam up? > > Could this have more to do with the women themselves than any external > cause? Oh. I see, any amount of experience at being assertive/aggressive is equivalent? Maybe it was a combined effort of the more self-assured aggressive male students combined with the tendency for profs to interrupt male students less and to give them more time to talk. Nahhhhhh, just blame the victim, it's so much easier than discovering what's really going on. > What, exactly, is "involuntary, nonmalicious, habitual sexism"? Is it > the mere existence of men in the classroom? What precisely did the men > do to keep the women down? Could it be that the women kept THEMSELVES > down, and that the men actually are blameless? Maybe you should get some facts. How typically male. Don't actually look into what is being said, counter-attack. Feh indeed. Your bookstore and/or library doesn't have any books on feminism? Try the following for starters: "The Lecherous Professor (2nd edition)" by Billie Wright Dziech and Linda Weiner, published by the University of Illinois Press, ISBN 0-252-06118-7. or "Gender in the Classroom Power and Pedagogy" by Susan L. Gabriel and Isaiah Smithson, published by the Universtiy of Illinois Press, ISBN 0-252-01691-2 (cloth) or 0-252-06110-1 (paper) > Women will not achieve true equality until they can do so without > crutches. My wife put herself through Stanford on an academic > scholarship. She didn't need any help from AA, and she didn't need to > hide out for four years away from the taint of male competition. THIS > counts for something: it was a battle honestly won. And Fredrick Douglass escaped slavery and went on to become famous. Wow, I guess all those other slaves didn't have the talent, nerve and desire to be free, so hell, they deserved to be slaves? Set the hurdles just high enough so only the top women can clear them and then blame the rest for being inferior. Yes, true equality will come when everyone can compete on an equal footing. Until we have destroyed the advantages males are given over females, that won't happen. Until then, I am more than willing to provide remedial aid to women. This reminds me of a Supreme Court case (whose name I don't recall) in which road work contracts that had been awarded on the basis of sex, but then had been by state law (Georgia?) changed to a merit based system, were still found to be racist. Gee, who happened to have all the experience? Why its all them good white boys who had been unfairly given the contracts before! Well, maybe you can see now how past discrimination can continue to work if the playing field is suddenly leveled? -Doug
jls@ncar.ucar.EDU (Jim Showalter) (03/20/91)
%This reminds me of a Supreme Court
%case (whose name I don't recall) in which road work contracts that had
%been awarded on the basis of sex, but then had been by state law
%(Georgia?) changed to a merit based system, were still found to be
%racist. Gee, who happened to have all the experience? Why its all
%them good white boys who had been unfairly given the contracts before!
So now roads are built in Georgia by people WITHOUT experience?
--
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