farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU (lisa ann farmer) (04/05/91)
Hi. I am writing a term paper on computer games & women/girls : the reasons why women/girls aren't interested in them and what effects this will have on them (i.e not going into the field of computer science). I might try to design a game after I have collected my info that incorporates what I have found. My question to the net is good sources for current articles, some games that are "friendly" towards women/girls and if anyone has experiences (good and bad) with computer games - I wouldn't mind some input via email about this subject. I don't know if I will be able to post a summary but I will try! Thanks. Lisa Farmer
cook@rpi.edu (Cathi A Cook) (04/05/91)
WHAT???? Surely you are out of your mind, yes? I _KILL_ at computer games, and have since I was about 15. (Before that there really weren't any computer games to speak of, except maybe "Pong"). If you're looking for answers why females don't get into computer games, you certainly won't get one from me, most of my friends, or probably most of the females on the net. -rocker
marla@eng.sun.com (Marla Parker) (04/09/91)
I can't agree with your assumption either (that women & girls don't like computer games). It is true that I avoid them, but only because they are so addictive and such a (fun) waste of time. I've been addicted to every computer game I've ever tried. My husband has to chase me away from the mac. When someone foolishly ported Tetris to a sun my productivity sank. I've heard that there is a Shanghai (my current obsession) here at work but so far I've been spared discovering it so far. For some reason I've forgotten, we actually bought nintendo so we could play mario brothers. I saved the princess before my husband did, and after we could each do it, we were cured! We gave the whole thing away. From this experience I think games with a limited number of options and a clear goal are better: they provide a built in end to the madness. I'll be playing Shanghai for years... -- Marla Parker (415) 336-2538 marla@eng.sun.com
scholl@uvmark.uucp (Kathryn Scholl) (04/11/91)
In article <8y+gmsm@rpi.edu> cook@rpi.edu (Cathi A Cook) writes: >If you're looking for answers why females don't get into computer >games, you certainly won't get one from me, most of my friends, >or probably most of the females on the net. Really? Obviously our experiences differ greatly. Being a software engineer myself, I have a few comments. First, most of my friends are *not* of the "computer" genre--they are mostly white-collared, educated, NON-computer types (yes, yuppies). I have been observing the computer/gender/personality stuff ever since I was in college, simply because I knew I was not at all like them. *My* personal experiences are not like yours at all. Every female engineer at my company, and at all three computer companies I have worked at, (usually ranging in the 10-15% of total engineers range), are definitely *NOT* like the male engineers. The differences? Since we women have talked about it at great length, I *can* speak for many...(including some on the net)... - Not a blatant fever/desire/love for bits/code/software-talk; - Interests outside of work having *nothing* to do with computers or software (e.g. sci-fi anything, computer games, etc.) - *MUCH* better social skills, e.g. social discussions, relating to the "sales-types", personal conversations, etc. - A better work reputation with others around the company (so we have been told). - Not "gurus" at what we do, but known for getting the job done. - Not caring whether we are gurus or not. - Not any of the ego/logical arrogance that seems to abound in my field. The interesting thing is that the females who fit into the "stereotypical" software-type, seem to have personality characteristics of their male counterparts. Any engineer, or anyone who knows engineers well, know what they are. Even beyond my yuppie friends, I know a pretty dynamic group of people. And from *me*, the ratio of female-engineer-"nontypes" and female-engineer- "types" are about 15:1. I could go on forever on the stereotypes, the male/female ratios, and the whats & whys, but in a note, I believe that the stereotypes are not gender specific, but personality specific, and I am thankful for that. (I don't jive with the argument that it's because of improper/sexist child-rearing...I was and am a tomboy...yet another big difference between me and the mostly non-athletic hacks). Simply, we are happy we are not "into" computers, where "into" is a pretty intense word. -- Kathryn Scholl ...uunet!merk!uvmark!scholl
melanie@director.beckman.uiuc.edu (Melanie Anderson) (04/11/91)
personally i hate computer games. they're usually dull, you can't play them with a team, and you don't get to run around and yell at people. give me a puck, a frisbee or a soccer ball any day. after 8 hours in front of a tube, it's very satisfying to get out there and play a real sport. nothing like a couple of nice clean passes to score to get rid of that frustration! -- Melanie Anderson msa@uiuc.edu Beckman Institute PHMETR::MELANIE University of Illinois 217/244-1079 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
dmerrill@zombie.dtc.hp.com (David Merrill) (04/11/91)
In soc.feminism, farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU (lisa ann farmer) writes: >Hi. I am writing a term paper on computer games & women/girls : the >reasons why women/girls aren't interested in them and what effects >this will have on them (i.e not going into the field of computer >science). I might try to design a game after I have collected my info >that incorporates what I have found. My question to the net is good >sources for current articles, some games that are "friendly" towards >women/girls and if anyone has experiences (good and bad) with computer >games - I wouldn't mind some input via email about this subject. I >don't know if I will be able to post a summary but I will try! Lisa, I think you have cause and effect reversed here. It seems to me that fewer women than men are interested in computer games because fewer women are interested in computers. Period. Now, the reason you find far fewer female computer people than male computer people is another question altogether. Maybe women are too socially skilled to retreat into the oblivion of computer-nerdiness. In any case, I think I can speak for most people (male and female)in the field when I say that we need more female engineers. Going entire days talking to dozens of men and only one or two women is strange, to say the least. Dave
marla@Eng.Sun.COM (Marla Parker) (04/13/91)
In article <1991Apr09.193235.47262@uvmark.uucp> scholl@uvmark.uucp (Kathryn Scholl) writes: >The differences? Since we women have talked about it at great length, >I *can* speak for many...(including some on the net)... > > - Not a blatant fever/desire/love for bits/code/software-talk; > - Interests outside of work having *nothing* to do with > computers or software (e.g. sci-fi anything, computer games, > etc.) > - *MUCH* better social skills, e.g. social discussions, relating > to the "sales-types", personal conversations, etc. > - A better work reputation with others around the company (so > we have been told). > - Not "gurus" at what we do, but known for getting the job done. > - Not caring whether we are gurus or not. > - Not any of the ego/logical arrogance that seems to abound in > my field. While it may be true that more female engineers embody this admirable set of virtues than men, I would like to point out that a growing number of male engineers are not socially inept maladjusted nerds. Maybe this has something to do with the field becoming more mature and less obscure. Here at Sun, I'd guess that about 1/3 of the software engineers fit your list of virtues, 1/3 are in the grey area, and only 1/3 are the stereotypical nerds who fit nothing on the above list. In my group, once labeled as the "yuppiest" group in our division, there is only one stereotypical nerd. Granted, he is the senior architect, but at about 12:1 he is certainly in the minority. The rest of us are someplace in the other 2/3 of the scale. In all there are 4 women and 8 men. No one is into sci-fi, about half like computer games (including three of the four women). Various members of the group spend significant amounts of time on other interests: seven play league vollyball year round, one flies, two sail, one competes in auto races, one competes in body-building, and two are avid gardeners. These are all interests that people spend a significant amount of time on each week, not casual once in a while fun. The point is, in my experience the nerd-level of software engineers has nothing to do with gender. *Being* a software engineer still has something to do with gender, in that there are not nearly enough female engineers, but the picture you painted looked to me like a small set of socially adjusted females working in the midst of a huge set of maladjusted male tunnel-vision hackers, with an insignificant number of type cross-overs between the two sets. That isn't what I see at all. -- Marla Parker (415) 336-2538 marla@eng.sun.com
falk@peregrine.Eng.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) (04/13/91)
In article <8y+gmsm@rpi.edu> cook@rpi.edu (Cathi A Cook) writes: >I _KILL_ at computer games, and have since I was about 15. (Before >that there really weren't any computer games to speak of, except >maybe "Pong"). I concur. The champion video-game player in my college was a woman, and she had something like two or three times the the score of the next higher player. When I came to this job, the champion hack player (again, by a large margin) was a woman; it took me *months* to beat her, and I don't think she was trying very hard. Anybody remember the girl playing the video games in 'Brother From Another Planet'? -ed falk, sun microsystems sun!falk, falk@sun.com In the future, somebody will quote Andy Warhol every 15 minutes.
farmerl@handel.CS.ColoState.Edu (lisa ann farmer) (04/13/91)
In article <7060003@hpdtczb.HP.COM> dmerrill@zombie.dtc.hp.com (David Merrill) writes: >I think you have cause and effect reversed here. It seems to me that >fewer women than men are interested in computer games because fewer >women are interested in computers. Period. Now, the reason you find >far fewer female computer people than male computer people is another >question altogether. I have been thinking about this subject quite intensely (it's my term paper, I have to) and I realize that I have made some assumptions that may not be true. This is like the chicken and the egg problem. If more women were in computer science would more girls play computer games and be interested in computers at a young age? Do you need to appeal to young girls first or do you need to get more women into the CS field first? Each one complements the other in my eyes. Why I even choose this topic was because I saw the use of computer games as an initial introduction to computers. To play a game is far "safer" and less frustrating than writing a program. My theory is that since women/girls don't play computer games they aren't as comfortable with computers to begin with and therefore get discouraged quicker than boys/men/ and other girls/women who have played computer games. Granted this my theory and what I am trying to do is to collect info that supports or disproves my theory. There are quite a few articles about the use of computers in businesses. Games are used to make employees feel more comfortable with computers. Well this is an update of where my paper is. I will post a summary of the responses I got sometime at the end of April. Thanks for the feedback! Lisa farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu
bradley@cs.utexas.edu (Bradley L. Richards) (04/19/91)
lisa ann farmer writes: >David Merrill writes: >>It seems to me that >>fewer women than men are interested in computer games because fewer >>women are interested in computers. >If more women were in computer science would more girls play computer >games and be interested in computers at a young age? Do you need to >appeal to young girls first or do you need to get more women into the >CS field first? Each one complements the other in my eyes. >My theory is >that since women/girls don't play computer games they aren't as >comfortable with computers to begin with and therefore get discouraged >quicker than boys/men/ and other girls/women who have played computer >games. There's another factor to consider, that I haven't seen mentioned yet on the net. I recall hearing about an experiment done at (I believe) the high school level, which involved boys and girls playing computer games. The games chosen were derivatives of then-popular video games; one that I recall being used was "missile command" (which suggests that the study was probably mid-80's). The researchers found no difference in the abilities of males/females playing the games, but they did find a big difference in enjoyment. The attitude of the girls playing missile command, for example, seemed to be "yea, I can play it, but why do I want to pretend to be fighting a war?" The conclusion the researchers drew was that most video and computer games are oriented toward a male audience by being violence oriented; we still have the early socialization, to a large extent, that boys play with toy soldiers, while girls play house. While many newer games are still very violence oriented, there are also many (Tetris, Klax, et al) which are not. I wonder if this will interest more girls in palying these games. Bradley
farmerl@handel.CS.ColoState.Edu (lisa ann farmer) (04/21/91)
Since it was brought up about newer games and women/girls interests in them I will tell what I found out through email replies. It seems that most people that responded said that one of the few computer games they or females they knew played was Tetris. I suspected this to be the case and it was positive to get mail which confirmed it. Tetris can be analyzed as to why it appeals to females more often - some obvious ones are 1)main character isn't a male 2)no violence 3)requires thought instead of a "shoot 'em up" attitude. This is it for now. Lisa farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu
bradley@cs.utexas.edu (Bradley L. Richards) (04/24/91)
|lisa ann farmer writes: | |>>It seems to me that |>>fewer women than men are interested in computer games because fewer |>>women are interested in computers. |>My theory is |>that since women/girls don't play computer games they aren't as |>comfortable with computers to begin with and therefore get discouraged |>quicker than boys/men/ and other girls/women who have played computer |>games. | |The researchers found no difference in the abilities of males/females |playing the games, but they did find a big difference in enjoyment. |The attitude of the girls playing missile command, for example, seemed |to be "yea, I can play it, but why do I want to pretend to be fighting |a war?" | |The conclusion the researchers drew was that most video and computer |games are oriented toward a male audience by being violence oriented; |we still have the early socialization, to a large extent, that boys |play with toy soldiers, while girls play house. I not sure if I understand your response. Perhaps I reading something different. College women often have shown low spatial aptitute than college men over many engineering disciplines. Part of the problem is that our society whether it is USA or some poor country where I come from educates young girls to be nurturing and proficient in language learning while young boys to be proficient in math and science domains. There has been considerable evidence that young girls and adult women need to be taught spatial skills. This might help to reduce the underrepresentation of women in math and science fields. Note that at the same time it is equally important for young boys to be nurturing and proficient in language learning. This might help boys and girls communicate better with each other since men and women often communicate as if the two come from alien cultures. Now where does computers, video technology, or video games comes in. Some one at MIT did a research couple of years ago where it was shown that video games can improve spatial skills. At a same time women teachers, that is the elementary teachers, often have anxiety problems with computers and their like. Tom Malone, also of MIT, once wrote a paper on how games can provided education (content lessons). I hope I am correct here. In any case, well-designed video games can provide something constructive to other half of our society. I am not a feminist per se, alteast in the western environment, but I am a student of visual literacy, and a big supporter for poor women and children rights to equity and equality in my society.
dl2p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Douglas Allen Luce) (04/24/91)
bradley@cs.utexas.edu (Bradley L. Richards) writes: > While many newer games are still very violence oriented, there are > also many (Tetris, Klax, et al) which are not. They're bloody few. I go through arcades at times, and am upset by the lack of quality vid out there. The prevailing theme in the video market is "killing things." These games all follow the same general scenario ("kill things") with minor plot twists. These games seem to be less interesting in premise and much less fun to play. The animation is not always so hot, and the "realism factor" that seems to be important lacking. (such as the connection of a weapon with an opponent's head and the death of that opponent -- usually the weapon just looks/"feels" like it's flying through air, and the opponent is magically influenced to die. No solid thunk and obvious damage) What really gets to me is how popular these games seem to be. A new death dealing vid was installed near a Klax in one arcade I visited. There was a huge (young male) crowd watching the (not horribly fresh) carnage on the one machine, and no one was even remotely interested in Klax. Although I generally fool myself into thinking I'm less war-monging than my fellow penis owners, there are things that I cannot bring myself to connect in with my sex, but I would if describing anyone else. I get an immense kick out of the video game "NARC." For those not so inclined, this game plots the player as a narcotics law enforcement officer armed with machine gun and occasional bazooka. The main object is to kill "undesirable elements of society" and confiscate cash and drugs. The depiction of violence is extreme: the video characters bleed quite a bit, and when hit by a bazooka, they become emblazoned, and flip into the air and divide into several component members, each landing on the ground and quickly burning to ashes. I play this game as often as I can (although it's no longer vogue in the arcades). I also recently saw the film Akira. This is a beautiful Japanese movie which is extraordinarily violent, complete with showers of blood from thought-wave obliterated humans. I loved every minute of it, and plan to watch it again to catch the details. What I can't seem to get at is the reason I enjoy these things so much. Do they tie into my gender in a physiological way? Do they have to do with my uncontrollable inclination to dominate? And are computers seen as tools of domination?